Thai staff - carrot or stick?

[PeeMarc]

After many years working and running my own business in Thailand, there seems to be one thing that I find the most annoying and seems to be a widespread problem here - how to get Thai staff to arrive to work on time.

I know that in many companies, if staff are late, they get sent to HR to explain. Some companies fine staff every time they are late, some will just give warnings and then fire them if they keep arriving late.

But in a small company such as mine, we dont have an HR manager. Its left to me.

In the beginning, I really tried everything I could to be nice about it. Nothing worked. 2 years ago, when I had 25 staff, I offered a cash reward of TB5000 for any staff who came to work before 9.30am every day within a month. I was so surprised that the ONLY person who got that cash reward was my loyal maid who actually travels the furthest, has the least salary and has never once been late. For all the others, it made no difference at all.

I have tried so many ways; too many to write here. All my Thai business friends tell me many Thais are just like children and that I am too kind and that I need to use a stick. But I dont want to be that kind of boss or treat adults this way.

Now, I am trying a new way. For each time they arrive after 9.30am, TB200 is deducted for their salary....after 10.30am, TB400 will be deducted.

Surprisingly, after the first week, there is only marginal improvement. So far, each of my staff has lost TB1000 from their salary. Now, of course, I am the arsehole!!!

Right now, I really feel like firing everyone and actually changing the structure of my business and just employing foreigners on freelance basis as needed.

Watching staff who are paid relatively well, stroll in at 11am and then start thinking about lunch is soul destroying for a small business owner.

I'd like to know what Thais think about this and other business owners/managers here.

For Thais (generally) which works better - the 'carrot' (incentives and rewards) or the 'stick' (penalties and threats)?

[bigKus]

I feel your pain, PeeMarce. Would you like to see my resume ?? ;-)

[English_Bob]

Stick.

Deduct the money this month and see if they are late next month. If so, sack someone very obviously for being late.

I'm dealing with a different 'class' to you...

That said, I did a 1000 baht competition for selling desserts one month and got some good results.

[English_Bob]

But I really do have a big stick to wield.... metaphorically.

[Chatty]

PeeMarc, I really understand your feeling... I'm part of HR... in big company like this people still come to work late. They have rewards for the people who never come late, or get the day off without telling anyone. Not many people get that rewards.

We have punishments, it will affect thier bonus if they come to work late more than 60 mins / month... but ... their behavior still the same. Even HR. staff.

How about setting up new rule, if they come late they must go home late?

My unit, we do something like this, when I come to work late about 1 mins, I must stay 30 mins more. :roll:

[funky_house]

They start at 9:30? :shock:

Wow!!

I wish I could start that late.

[PeeMarc]

PeeMarc, I really understand your feeling... I'm part of HR... in big company like this people still come to work late. They have rewards for the people who never come late, or get the day off without telling anyone. Not many people get that rewards.

We have punishments, it will affect thier bonus if they come to work late more than 60 mins / month... but ... their behavior still the same. Even HR. staff.

How about setting up new rule, if they come late they must go home late?

My unit, we do something like this, when I come to work late about 1 mins, I must stay 30 mins more. :roll:

Yes... I know this is a huge problem in Thailand and it is seriously effecting my business. We charge big money to our clients and really need to keep our standards high.

The crunch for me came when I went to renew my work permit at the new BOI one-stop center on Rama IV. Normally the procedure is all done before 12 and they are quite efficient. But on the day I went only 50% of staff actually came to work!! The staff who were there seemed to be in some dream land and no-one even made any effort to try harder despite the 100s of people waiting hours.

I finally got out at 4.30pm (got there ar 8.30am) and I thought to myself: "****!! why I am I the one paying for all of this late ****?? My staff get paid their good salary every month by ME... and now I am wasting a whole day here and paying (by my time) because this staff cant be bothered to come to work either!!"

Is it any wonder why Thailand is so poor???

[English_Bob]

Is it any wonder why Thailand is so poor???

That's a rhetorical question, isn't it?

I don't believe Thailand IS poor. I believe the wealth is spent poorly and/or embezzled.

[bigKus]

Actually, you don’t need either carrots or sticks but learn them responsibilities.

Especially in small company, friendly devoted hard working oriented mind are much required. I used to work in small farang company, we didn’t have this such a problem just the boss stated it clearly since the first day that “It will be appreciate to see you reach office before 8.00, if you could make it each day you can call me I would like to know why†(no sticks no carrots )

For the company that I work for now, when my boss was in position AVP. Technical, he was acting AVP Sales & Marketing also, I arrived office 7.00-7.30 am. and work till 8.00-9.00 pm. Because there had so many things for me to handle, to push, to follow up, to arrange and I enjoyed it so much, nothing can make me happy than to see the successful come out. (Now boss is the president of co. I get office err.. few mins before 9.00 )

The staffs in my company do not have this problem as we leave things to the responsibility, if you work as Sales person you can come to work late or anytime you like as long as your can hit your sales target but if you are engineers who supervise the system which running 24 hrs a day you have to stand by even on weekend or if technical services are providing to customers which has fix shutdown system schedule you have to finished it on time, so you don’t have time to think about being late at work.

by the way, i dotn beleive Thailand is poor either, you know what ? Thailand is the country that has biggest amount of cash donated to Haiti counted from private sections

[PeeMarc]

Especially in small company, friendly devoted hard working oriented mind are much required. I used to work in small farang company, we didn’t have this such a problem just the boss stated it clearly since the first day that “It will be appreciate to see you reach office before 8.00, if you could make it each day you can call me I would like to know why†(no sticks no carrots )

I have tried that and been VERY clear about this from the beginning. As I said, I have tried so many ways to just get then to turn up on time. The major problem is that I need staff with very specific skills and talents. This means that a) they are hard to find and not easy to fire because they are hard to replace.

Clearly, I have failed to hire the right staff. I am now in the process of making plans t look for all new staff and fire everyone here and build a new (reliable) team.

[Boog]

During my first week in my new job here i called to excuse myself for being late (10 min), and i arrived 30 min before almost everybody...

I think the carrot will not work, the stick would but you will become the number 1 official most hated guy in the area...

maybe change staff and set the rules from day 1 , the atmosphere is so important in a small business, no?

edit:i've just read your post, if the rules were clear from the begining, i have no idea what else you can do...

[PeeMarc]

During my first week in my new job here i called to excuse myself for being late (10 min), and i arrived 30 min before almost everybody...

I think the carrot will not work, the stick would but you will become the number 1 official most hated guy in the area...

maybe change staff and set the rules from day 1 , the atmosphere is so important in a small business, no?

as I have said, I have made this VERY clear to all staff from the first day... and it has been and on-going topic for past year. Yes, the atmosphere in a small company is extremely important.

[beej]

Hire and fire, its the only way.

Work with them for a while, if they are flaky sack them and get another, you'll build a good team after 2-3 years.

I've got a team of about 8-10 that work with me and every one is dependable, on time or even early, honest, and trustworthy.... it took me 7 years to find them, and they never let me down, ever.

On a side not I must have worked with 200 who got the boot.

[PeeMarc]

Hire and fire, its the only way.

Work with them for a while, if they are flaky sack them and get another, you'll build a good team after 2-3 years.

I've got a team of about 8-10 that work with me and every one is dependable, on time or even early, honest, and trustworthy.... it took me 7 years to find them, and they never let me down, ever.

On a side not I must have worked with 200 who got the boot.

Thanks mate. As brutal as that is, you are quite right. In Sydney it did take me many years to build a good team around me and its essential to have this in my job.

Here in Thailand, great, reliable talent is much harder to find, or thinner on the ground, so I guess I have compromised a lot because of this. In the end, I lose and my work suffers and its really pissing me off now.

I made the decision today to get out and really look hard for more good people and when i have some I will fire all the team I have now.

[beej]

Hire and fire, its the only way.

Work with them for a while, if they are flaky sack them and get another, you'll build a good team after 2-3 years.

I've got a team of about 8-10 that work with me and every one is dependable, on time or even early, honest, and trustworthy.... it took me 7 years to find them, and they never let me down, ever.

On a side not I must have worked with 200 who got the boot.

Thanks mate. As brutal as that is, you are quite right. In Sydney it did take me many years to build a good team around me and its essential to have this in my job.

Here in Thailand, great, reliable talent is much harder to find, or thinner on the ground, so I guess I have compromised a lot because of this. In the end, I lose and my work suffers and its really pissing me off now.

I made the decision today to get out and really look hard for more good people and when i have some I will fire all the team I have now.

Seeing the others getting booted non stop keeps them on their toes too!

But I also pay well, and am very chilled to deal with.

Let me know what you're looking for if you can't find anyone.

Be brutal.... and do it as soon as they start to piss around, its the same anywhere in the world.

[olympos]

Hire and fire, its the only way.

Work with them for a while, if they are flaky sack them and get another, you'll build a good team after 2-3 years.

I've got a team of about 8-10 that work with me and every one is dependable, on time or even early, honest, and trustworthy.... it took me 7 years to find them, and they never let me down, ever.

On a side not I must have worked with 200 who got the boot.

Thanks mate. As brutal as that is, you are quite right. In Sydney it did take me many years to build a good team around me and its essential to have this in my job.

Here in Thailand, great, reliable talent is much harder to find, or thinner on the ground, so I guess I have compromised a lot because of this. In the end, I lose and my work suffers and its really pissing me off now.

I made the decision today to get out and really look hard for more good people and when i have some I will fire all the team I have now.

Have just sent a PM to PM :wink:

[Chatty]

Here in Thailand, great, reliable talent is much harder to find, or thinner on the ground, so I guess I have compromised a lot because of this. In the end, I lose and my work suffers and its really pissing me off now.

Hmm peeMarc, I have met those reliable people, it's not that bad..

I think it's about the job, I think your company is about "commercial arts" right?

if that I think ppl who study about art in Thailand (cuz i never had experience in other countries) Most of them are not early bird, believe me I'm such a weird person for them. Right now I need a good staff to work in my team, but it's damn hard to find cuz they don't like to start working at 8 am. go back home at 5 pm. work from Mon - Fri.

[drlovelife8]

I am with Beej. Fire a few, but understand they will NOT like you.

Get a few freelance farang in too.

Try to get the influencial Thai on your side, it is possible, but unlikely, he or she may aid you in stressing the importance of time keeping.

You could make the deductions a bit more hurtful. If they only lose a few hundred a throw they won't think about it and might be to dim in some respects to think about adding it all up and seeing how much they lose over 6 months or so, not many here plan that far ahead.

Perhaps a poster explaining it all and showing how much they lose by being consistantly late.

Face facts. You are the boss, not their friends. By trying to be WESTERN about this you are showing what they see as weakness. Then when you address it, you show yourself to be an arse-hole as you stated yourself. by changing and punishing. You may show a lack of consistancey. That won't go down well.

I would suggest those with the best record for time get a big slap-up meal with you at Somboon seafood. Thai's love dining sooo much they may see this as more than money and give you bit of Jai Dee kudos too.... But definately fire someone.

So delicate is the situation you are talking about.

I have never seen such a consistantly pathetic workforce as I have where I used to work. I work with Koreans and Japanse now, what a breath of fresh air!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I remember a thead not too long agon where someone (Pjack maybe) stated that farang get paid more thai Thai because they are better. I am not sure I believe that completely but on time keeping they are light-years ahead as well as seeing it's importance too.

[beej]

I have to disagree with bcool a little.... no surprise there :wink: I work with about 50% of my team being artists and creatives that all finished with fine art degrees, and they are some of the earliest most on time people I work with, which even shocks me.

I've given them jobs which should take me 14 days, and they are done in 7, personally I find people from outside Bangkok the most trouble to deal with, the most on time and hardest working seem to be Bangkok born and bred.....

All of the companies I deal with took me years to find and every single one of them bar one is a family owned and run business, with the family still on the front desk cracking the whip.

The exception being the Paper Stock company which though we know the owners , has now been handed over to total monkeys to run, as a result, paper turned up 10 days late, and we missed out on a big order.

[beej]

Saying all of that though..... I now have my leg in plaster and am out of the game for 2-3 months on crutches, trying to find and trust someone to to my everyday runnings is going to be tricky.

[Chatty]

I have to disagree with bcool a little.... no surprise there :wink: I work with about 50% of my team being artists and creatives that all finished with fine art degrees, and they are some of the earliest most on time people I work with, which even shocks me.

I didn't say all of them...

but from the experience I have study communication arts... and some of my friends studied designing... they are not early bird... and most of them are "last minute workers"

You must be the lucky one who have that kind of team.. congrat.

People in my team are reliable as well, we always come to work on time. I'm so lucky to have them around.. need one more person to help me do the media designing stuff.. as I told you it's damn hard... and I never think about recruit my friend to take this position, I know their natures since we studied together.

[CiaranM]

Hire and fire, its the only way.

Work with them for a while, if they are flaky sack them and get another, you'll build a good team after 2-3 years.

I've got a team of about 8-10 that work with me and every one is dependable, on time or even early, honest, and trustworthy.... it took me 7 years to find them, and they never let me down, ever.

On a side not I must have worked with 200 who got the boot.

Thanks mate. As brutal as that is, you are quite right. In Sydney it did take me many years to build a good team around me and its essential to have this in my job.

Here in Thailand, great, reliable talent is much harder to find, or thinner on the ground, so I guess I have compromised a lot because of this. In the end, I lose and my work suffers and its really pissing me off now.

I made the decision today to get out and really look hard for more good people and when i have some I will fire all the team I have now.

depending on how long ur current team have worked for u it could be damm expensive to sack them !!! thai labour courts tend to be sympathetic towards thai employees sacked by farang bosses !!!

[Chatty]

hmm gonna say that too.. be careful about labour laws.

Sack someone isn't easy nah.. I think you have to pay them like 3 months advance??

and then you recruit new staff... then orientation? and train them...

[Gorgeous]

They start at 9:30? :shock:

Wow!!

I wish I could start that late.

Sounds like Tesco Lotus staff :shock:

[Gorgeous]

make a parole and do it more serious..

[beej]

Hire and fire, its the only way.

Work with them for a while, if they are flaky sack them and get another, you'll build a good team after 2-3 years.

I've got a team of about 8-10 that work with me and every one is dependable, on time or even early, honest, and trustworthy.... it took me 7 years to find them, and they never let me down, ever.

On a side not I must have worked with 200 who got the boot.

Thanks mate. As brutal as that is, you are quite right. In Sydney it did take me many years to build a good team around me and its essential to have this in my job.

Here in Thailand, great, reliable talent is much harder to find, or thinner on the ground, so I guess I have compromised a lot because of this. In the end, I lose and my work suffers and its really pissing me off now.

I made the decision today to get out and really look hard for more good people and when i have some I will fire all the team I have now.

depending on how long ur current team have worked for u it could be damm expensive to sack them !!! thai labour courts tend to be sympathetic towards thai employees sacked by farang bosses !!!

There must be some kind of way to hire people on a trail period?