Food Bubble

[eagle]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2011/01/does_climate_change_explain_th.html

Writing in the journal Science, the experts claim that Rome's Third Century Crisis -- a period of political and economic unrest that inaugurated the empire's slow decline -- coincided with "distinct drying" recorded in tree rings, which may have rendered European agriculture less productive. Not just that -- the appearance of the Plague in Western Europe correlates with a wet period, which may have provided conditions favorable for spreading the disease. So, the scientists warn, don't underestimate the possible risks associated with contemporary climate change.

Climate shifts that affected farm output were factors in "amplifying political, social and economic crises," Ulf Buentgen, of the Swiss Federal Research Institute for Forest, Snow and Landscape Research, told Reuters.

And I suppose those periods of climate change corresponded with something man did, right?

Very possible. Man has helped many desert along.

But but but what what what? The ROMANS started global warming?

I am staggered by how stupid your points are becoming, Bruce. At first they were just tedious and repetitive melodramas. Now they are in danger of becoming tragicomedies.

Your not even getting his point and you call him stupid.. sheeezes

[English_Bob]

Your not even getting his point and you call him stupid.. sheeezes

You're not even reading my sentence correctly...

Do I have start from the beginning?

The Roman Empire collapsed due to economic and politic issues. There was a plague.

Climate has nothing to do with it and Bruce is clutching at straws.

[eagle]

Your not even getting his point and you call him stupid.. sheeezes

You're not even reading my sentence correctly...

Do I have start from the beginning?

The Roman Empire collapsed due to economic and politic issues. There was a plague.

Climate has nothing to do with it and Bruce is clutching at straws.

The word "factors" is in that huge cluster of words but you cant see past your everything is ok lets not be negative schtick. Suggesting climate had an influence then does not take from the possibility that man is influencing climate now. Your not even getting your mitts on the straw.

[English_Bob]

Let's go back to the stage where you want us all to ride horses and communictae by semaphore.

Where every house has 3 chickens and vegetable plot.

And evil geneticists are crocheting blankets for vegetarian lesbian cripples.

[Stramash]

Your not even getting his point and you call him stupid.. sheeezes

You're not even reading my sentence correctly...

Do I have start from the beginning?

The Roman Empire collapsed due to economic and politic issues. There was a plague.

Climate has nothing to do with it and Bruce is clutching at straws.

I would agree with you totally that climate had nothing to do with the fall of Rome. It is generally agreed that rapid over expansion was the principal cause, coupled with other factors such as a decline in the power and effectiveness of the Roman military. And although Rome itself fell to the 'barbarians', the Roman way of life continued for some time afterwards. Islamic expansion probably heralded the true death knell of 'Rome' (as a concept, not a power) and saw the advent of the dark ages.

However, climate change was certainly a factor (though not the cause) in the severity of the black death. The change from a warmperiod to the 'mini ice age' saw a huge drop in agricultural production and this in turn caused famine. Great conditions for a plague to kill in the millions.

I quite like the ideas behind the Malthusian Limit

"The idea of a Malthusian catastrophe was put forward by Thomas Malthus in An Essay on the Principle of Population in 1798. Malthus pointed out that human populations tend to grow exponentially, while the capabilities of agricultural resources tend to grow arithmetically. Using these patterns, Malthus predicted that at a certain point, the demands of a human population would outstrip agricultural ability. This, in turn, would trigger radical social changes, including population decline and, according to Malthus, a state of misery."

Some claim that the black death fits in with this theory, others say such crises are inevitable and part of an ever continuing cycle...

[eagle]

Let's go back to the stage where you want us all to ride horses and communictae by semaphore.

Where every house has 3 chickens and vegetable plot.

And evil geneticists are crocheting blankets for vegetarian lesbian cripples.

being a verbal thug gives you no extra crediblity

[English_Bob]

Let's go back to the stage where you want us all to ride horses and communictae by semaphore.

Where every house has 3 chickens and vegetable plot.

And evil geneticists are crocheting blankets for vegetarian lesbian cripples.

being a verbal thug gives you no extra crediblity

I'm not a verbal thug... I'm a therapist.

You wander through cyberland spreading depression and misery.

I follow you - telling people to relax, enjoy their lives and ignore the prophet of doom - he's broadcasting the equivalent of the bogeyman for adults.

[English_Bob]

Some claim that the black death fits in with the black death.

I agree.

The point of my point of which I was pointing out was that the Romans had **** all to do with climate change.

And the fact that the Black Death happened during a period of dampness is still irrelevent because people didn't cause THAT climate either.

Climate changes. **** happens People adapt. Geneticists do more good than harm. People are basically more than evil profit-grabbing despots. Life is better because of mankind. Life will continue to get better. Doommongers are always wrong. Hippies never did anything worthwhile.

[Stramash]

bugger.

I meant to say 'the black death fits in with this theory'

need more sleep.

[Stramash]

Hippies never did anything worthwhile.

Ben and Jerry's?

:twisted:

[eagle]

Stramash wrote:

I would agree with you totally that climate had nothing to do with the fall of Rome. It is generally agreed that rapid over expansion was the principal cause, coupled with other factors such as a decline in the power and effectiveness of the Roman military. And although Rome itself fell to the 'barbarians', the Roman way of life continued for some time afterwards. Islamic expansion probably heralded the true death knell of 'Rome' (as a concept, not a power) and saw the advent of the dark ages.

If climate effects food production it can have devastating effects on a population as large as Rome had weakening its ability to defend itself. It was spread too thin as i recall history lessons and could easily have been influenced by a few bad years of food production. From what I remember a mad horde of disgruntled and potentially starving peasants ,at the least taxed to death, aided in the fall of Rome.

I was just in San Juan PR where i learned that the well fortified Fort El Moro did well to defend against the english with its cannons and 20 ft thick walls and multiple moats until dysentery broke down their ability to defend themselves. Then the english met the same fate. Tropical heat and sanitary conditions of a growing community were the factors of conquest. In the past man's growing civilizations fell victim to its own trash and waste which breed the diseases which he suffered. All of mans major disease were bred by mans growing civilizations. We only learned what a germ or vitamin was a hundred years ago give or take. In these modern times we are growing so fast with our new found ability to fight disease as to outpace our ability to feed everyone. Bob will be fine but poor people suffer easily the smallest changes in economies climate and food production. I will be fine ,but don't like to see people suffer from the greed and lack of vision of a few.

[eagle]

Hippies never did anything worthwhile.

Ben and Jerry's?

:twisted:

Good one, I didn't even see that bit of trash.

[eagle]

I'd say hippies have more of a positive effect on the planet with their "love is the answer" attitude then "Yuppies" who only care about themselves and supporting the machine that feeds them. With a growing population, if there isn't more love for all then we have nothing to look forward to but devastation. Too bad eye doctors can't correct lack of vision of all types.

[Stramash]

Stramash wrote:

I would agree with you totally that climate had nothing to do with the fall of Rome. It is generally agreed that rapid over expansion was the principal cause, coupled with other factors such as a decline in the power and effectiveness of the Roman military. And although Rome itself fell to the 'barbarians', the Roman way of life continued for some time afterwards. Islamic expansion probably heralded the true death knell of 'Rome' (as a concept, not a power) and saw the advent of the dark ages.

If climate effects food production it can have devastating effects on a population as large as Rome had weakening its ability to defend itself. It was spread too thin as i recall history lessons and could easily have been influenced by a few bad years of food production. From what I remember a mad horde of disgruntled and potentially starving peasants ,at the least taxed to death, aided in the fall of Rome.

I was just in San Juan PR where i learned that the well fortified Fort El Moro did well to defend against the english with its cannons and 20 ft thick walls and multiple moats until dysentery broke down their ability to defend themselves. Then the english met the same fate. Tropical heat and sanitary conditions of a growing community were the factors of conquest. In the past man's growing civilizations fell victim to its own trash and waste which breed the diseases which he suffered. All of mans major disease were bred by mans growing civilizations. We only learned what a germ or vitamin was a hundred years ago give or take. In these modern times we are growing so fast with our new found ability to fight disease as to outpace our ability to feed everyone. Bob will be fine but poor people suffer easily the smallest changes in economies climate and food production. I will be fine ,but don't like to see people suffer from the greed and lack of vision of a few.

Ok let's keep this simple. Climate change had very very little if anything, to do with the fall of the Roman Empire in the West. It was a massive systemic failure on a never before seen scale. Put really simply; the body had become far too big for the brain to run.

My own opinion at the moment is that man is having an effect on some parts pf the climate change cycle but is not the cause. And yes I worry that those effects may speed up parts of the cycle beyond the Earth's natural capacity to cope but only time will prove any of us right or wrong.

But I'm with Malthus on this one. As a planet we have developed at a skewed rate. We have eliminated many diseases and improved child mortality rates without first solving the problem of how to feed those extra mouths. So it is perhaps inevitable that some sort of crisis point will be reached, be it socio-economic, climactic or pandemic. We maybe need a bit of a die back to our own population as we are not on the verge of solving that whole issue of the people-food ratio, despite Dave's slightly blinkered belief in the mad scientists of this world.

[English_Bob]

This debate has also skewed off track.

My stance has always been population growth vs food production is the biggest problem facing mankind at present. (much, much more so than extra water in 100 years' time)

I also know that our best chance to meet the future demand is genetic engineering and new technological methods of food production. We can't afford to head back to the 'good old days', because the good old days were **** compared to today.

The world can't survive on Ben and Jerry's.

[English_Bob]

I'd say hippies have more of a positive effect on the planet with their "love is the answer" attitude then "Yuppies" who only care about themselves and supporting the machine that feeds them. With a growing population, if there isn't more love for all then we have nothing to look forward to but devastation. Too bad eye doctors can't correct lack of vision of all types.

An attitude is a luxury.

What the planet needs is action.

I'm not talking about Yuppies - you are trying to link me to a financial standpoint (unsuccessfully). I'm talking about future food production which will HAVE to come from genetic engineering.

Your Utopian ideas are outdated and unworkable. You are out-of-touch and missing the obvious.... We tried the old, traditional methods. They don't produce enough food... there are too many people now... it's going to get worse.

Now it's time to try new stuff. The hungry can't eat love.

[English_Bob]

. Too bad eye doctors can't correct lack of vision of all types.

For example, those poor souls who can only look backwards?

[eagle]

I'd say hippies have more of a positive effect on the planet with their "love is the answer" attitude then "Yuppies" who only care about themselves and supporting the machine that feeds them. With a growing population, if there isn't more love for all then we have nothing to look forward to but devastation. Too bad eye doctors can't correct lack of vision of all types.

An attitude is a luxury.

What the planet needs is action.

I'm not talking about Yuppies - you are trying to link me to a financial standpoint (unsuccessfully). I'm talking about future food production which will HAVE to come from genetic engineering.

Your Utopian ideas are outdated and unworkable. You are out-of-touch and missing the obvious.... We tried the old, traditional methods. They don't produce enough food... there are too many people now... it's going to get worse.

Now it's time to try new stuff. The hungry can't eat love.

There is lots of action going on but money and power is steering the direction as in Monsanto. Many great ideas have been pushed aside for something not as good but with the power to push it through. In todays climate of buying science to set agendas in motion I'm suspicious. Hemp is pushed aside and it trumps many currently used products where it is the superior source. We are give toxic over earth friendly so someone with power can control a market. GMOs are suspect and the jury is still out as to how safe they are but they are being pushed on the world. I don't think this is happening because Monsanto simple wants to feed the hungry.

Money cannot be the driving force of productivity for us to have a sustainable system and I feel thats what's been happening. If money isn't your motive good for you. I've read many articles and watched movies about Monsanto to see that its not a direction I want to see the worlds food supply go. Splicing genes in grains so you can dump huge amounts of toxins on the plants is counter productive and its not working. Bugs are just learning to eat toxins and then humans are being poisoned with toxins without a huge increase in yield and a destruction of arable land. But Monsanto is pushing its Ideas in spite of this because roundup is their idea and their product not because its good for the planet. I'm not under some illusion we will be back to horse and buggies soon as you imply but am not going to quietly watch a Monsanto twist our food system for its own power and purpose. GMOs have been shown to cause multiple problems in lab animals. Scientific stamps of approval are bought as politicians are by corporate interests giving us aspartame which was proven to be harmful but is still on the market. I read the last National Geographic on the World Food situation and they show the stats of the old way and the new way and there is a movement away from chemicals to a more natural "with the planet" type of farming for sustainability. We need lots of food that can be annually harvested without poisoning ourselves and environment doing it. I say Monsanto because they are taking the lead. Aggressively taking over food supplies country after country. Seeing this and not liking it is not looking backwards. A vision of the future after all has to have a future. Someone wants to invent an egg that will cure cancer thats wonderful but NOT if they try to replace all our eggs with it ,without knowing the effect on our future ,simply so they control eggs.

[eagle]

Stramash wrote:

My own opinion at the moment is that man is having an effect on some parts pf the climate change cycle but is not the cause. And yes I worry that those effects may speed up parts of the cycle beyond the Earth's natural capacity to cope but only time will prove any of us right or wrong.

If man is creating any effect on the climate or environment the growing population will increase that effect to the tenth power if we don't change direction. Sustainability is the word most important to our future. It has to keep working year after year. The earth will be fine but life on it has to adapt to survive. I don't think doing away with biodiversity and moving to mutated GMO crops is a good idea especially seeing the effects Monsanto is having.

[Bruce551]

The problem is companies like Monsanto design GMO crops to make money, that require endusers to buy Monsanto seeds & RoundUp weed killer. They're not working for the best interest of humans, especially in developing countries or for a more sustainable eco-system.

[eagle]

The problem is companies like Monsanto design GMO crops to make money, that require endusers to buy Monsanto seeds & RoundUp weed killer. They're not working for the best interest of humans, especially in developing countries or for a more sustainable eco-system.

The native in the US call it Seven Generations. When you come up with an idea think seven generations in the future as to its effects.

[eagle]

Monsanto is destroying as it goes in India for one where over 100,000 farmers committed suicide as the Monstano style of farming caused them to go it debt and lose everything.

[English_Bob]

Monsanto is destroying as it goes in India for one where over 100,000 farmers committed suicide as the Monstano style of farming caused them to go it debt and lose everything.

Over 100,000 farmers committed suicide and 100,000 investigations showed each suicide was because of Monstanto?

I'm calling bullshit on this. Post a link... a credible link, not a website made by the tinfoil hat brigade.

[English_Bob]

Your argument is imploding.

3 pages ago, you were anti-cancer cures if they were made using genetic engineering.

Now it's come down to one company. And I bet if you did some balanced investigation, you'd find Monsanto have done plenty of good as well. But you have a bogeyman in your sights and nothing is going to convince you otherwise.

You and your ilk are scared of progress and want everyone else to be scared of progress too.

But you don't have any alternative plan.

With the population growing as it is, there IS no alternative.

Fingers crossed for a war or a pandemic (a real one - not one of those poser ones like swine flu).

By the way - did you read the article about geneticists working to be able to vaccinate against ALL kinds of flu through adding genes to chicken eggs, thus saving millions of people at an unbelievably low cost?

[eagle]

Your argument is imploding.

3 pages ago, you were anti-cancer cures if they were made using genetic engineering.

Now it's come down to one company. And I bet if you did some balanced investigation, you'd find Monsanto have done plenty of good as well. But you have a bogeyman in your sights and nothing is going to convince you otherwise.

You and your ilk are scared of progress and want everyone else to be scared of progress too.

But you don't have any alternative plan.

With the population growing as it is, there IS no alternative.

Fingers crossed for a war or a pandemic (a real one - not one of those poser ones like swine flu).

By the way - did you read the article about geneticists working to be able to vaccinate against ALL kinds of flu through adding genes to chicken eggs, thus saving millions of people at an unbelievably low cost?

yea vaccines I trust them , you go for it. as your head is in the sand anyway.....