Multiculturalism! Epic Fail?

[PiAnt]

Nicolas Sarkozy declares multiculturalism had failed

French president Nicolas Sarkozy on Thursday declared that multiculturalism had failed, joining a growing number of world leaders or ex-leaders who have condemned it.

"We have been too concerned about the identity of the person who was arriving and not enough about the identity of the country that was receiving him," he said in a television interview in which he declared the concept a "failure".

Prime Minister David Cameron last month pronounced his country's long-standing policy of multiculturalism a failure, calling for better integration of young Muslims to combat home-grown extremism.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Australia's former prime minister John Howard and former Spanish prime minister Jose Maria Aznar have also in recent months said multicultural policies have not successfully integrated immigrants.

From what has been reported in the news recently, most immigrants to Europe, or western Europe in particular, are not doing so in order to assimilate themselves into western society, but merely to take advantage of its greater opportunities. I'm not saying that trying to improve your lot is a bad thing, I'm sure anyone born into a disadvantaged society would wish to do the same, but too much onus is placed on their benefits, to the detriment of the members of the society which allows them to come.

[admin]

Nicolas Sarkozy declares multiculturalism had failed

From what has been reported in the news recently, most immigrants to Europe, or western Europe in particular, are not doing so in order to assimilate themselves into western society, but merely to take advantage of its greater opportunities. I'm not saying that trying to improve your lot is a bad thing, I'm sure anyone born into a disadvantaged society would wish to do the same, but too much onus is placed on their benefits, to the detriment of the members of the society which allows them to come.

The problem stems from the fact that governments, especially in the US and western Europe, put too much emphasis on embracing and respecting the culture of the immigrant rather than on attempting to get them to assimilate with the existing culture. The US is a good example of how immigration should work. We're a nation of immigrants. Other than the native indian tribes everyone in the US came from elsewhere.

And for the first 200 years or so nobody gave the immigrants any sort of special consideration. English was the official language so all forms, documents, etc were in English. That forced a language assimilation. Nowadays you go take a driver's test and you can get it in 30 different languages. Now you can live just like you did back in your country except with a whole bunch of new freedoms. Why assimilate then? No reason to because you'll be treated the same whether you embrace your new country or not.

That is why illegal immigration is such a hot issue in the US right now. Many (if not most) illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America have no desire to become Americans. They're coming because of the lack of jobs in their home countries and the fact that they can come to the US and send money back home. So they don't learn the language. They don't adopt the culture. In essence, they're Mexicans (or from wherever) living in the US.

Dr. Thomas Sowell either authored a study or reported on it (I forget which but I remember reading it in a book he wrote) in which it was shown that a Mexican family that sought and obtained citizenship became fully assimilated within 2 - 3 generations. In other words, by the second or third generation after coming to the US they spoke English as their first language and their earnings were on average with the rest of Americans. However if they didn't seek citizenship, even by the fourth generation they spoke Spanish as their first language and earned considerably less than the national average.

[koolbreez]

The societies in question allow you to maintain your minority status, and the culture that goes with it, no matter how long your ancestors have been in the country. That's part of the freedom of religion. The Catholics preach no contaceptives so their ranks grow. The major religion South of the border is Catholic. You don't change religions when you immigrate legally to the USA, you just have more kids. Kinda like the Irish did too. That's what your religion wants.

In the USA a classic example is in the Southern Lousiana Bayoos, creole is the main language, and has been from the time the country was in its infancy. You go into New York city, and you can find cultures that go back to the time of the great immigrations of the 1900's, Jewish, Greek, Irish, Italian, Chinese, and even to this day they maintain their culture, and language. Drop down into the South, and try to understand what they are saying. To identify countries South of the border as not adapting to the way things are done, is a weak defence to the demand for cheap labor that brings them here in the first place. They stay, and become a majority in some areas, and all of a sudden it's a problem because they didn't adapt.....lolololol.

The real truth is that now as a minority the people that pushed for equal rights, adapting to what the majority voted for, and following the will of the people, are now refusing to adapt to the majority as they preached others to do. Their way of life is no longer how the majority wants to live, and because of their true nature, that of a biget, and good-ol'-boy, they will go to whatever length they see fit, including violence, to protect their minority way of life, yet preach against it for the real majority.

After 9/11 when the US government sealed up the borders, and shut the movement of illegals, the first people to complain were a few Texas farmers that had no one to pick the crops. No one that was out of work, and a US citizen, would do that menial work, for the below minimum wages payed. The Border movement of illegals was relaxed, and your vegetables didn't go up in price. What is going on now is the result of a few good-ol'-boys lining their pockets at the detriment to another race of people. That group of people are now reaching majority status, and the good ol' boys are freeking out.

It's funny this statement would come from the French. It's almost like they can't understand why everyone that comes to their country doesn't want to be French.....hahahaha. They also don't understand what multiculturalism is. It's not the changing of people so they are all living under the same cultural blanket. It is adapting to each cultural need, and making sure they can keep their cultural identity. If that means having government paperwork written in 20 different languages, then so be it. That is what multiculturalism is about.

Multiculturalism is the adapting to the needs of each culture, not forcing them to adjust to one culture. The USA does this, and has for allot longer than the people from the South of the border have been coming here to work. In the past it was cheaper to hire interpreters, now it's cheaper to make different language paperwork.

A few people are scared because their way of corruption, and the good ol' boy way of doing things is over, and they can't stand it. It really frosted there butts when a black president was elected by a very clear majority. That is when their real nature came out, and the notion of multiculturalism was reevaluated.

[CiaranM]

The problem stems from the fact that governments, especially in the US and western Europe, put too much emphasis on embracing and respecting the culture of the immigrant rather than on attempting to get them to assimilate with the existing culture. The US is a good example of how immigration should work. We're a nation of immigrants. Other than the native indian tribes everyone in the US came from elsewhere.

what ... u mean wipe out the native population !!! not sure that would work nowadays !!

[admin]

@KB: The problem is not about forcing people to adopt your culture. It's about people refusing to integrate into it. All of the examples you gave in your second paragraph demonstrate exactly what integration is about. You don't have to stop being Catholic or Jewish or whatever your religion is. You don't have to give up your language. In fact, "Americans" have adopted many of the cultural aspects from it's immigrants.

The problem comes up when the two cultures conflict. For instance, can a mosque prohibit women from worshiping in it? There are laws against discriminating based on sex however many Muslims who have immigrated to the UK are saying that it's part of their culture and that forcing them to adhere to the anti-discrimination laws is violating their right to practice their culture.

The multiculturalism approach is to make the exception and respect their culture. Now, people like Cameron, Merkel, and Sarkozy (along with the governments in Sweden, Switzerland, and Spain) are saying this approach has been a total disaster. People are isolating themselves within their own cultures and not really integrating with the rest of society. What people are saying is that a certain level of integration should be required for citizenship.

The problem with multiculturalism is that it tends to work only when both cultures are willing to give and take. Some cultures are highly resistant to change.

And my example about illegal immigration in the US has nothing to do with cheap labor or any of the other issues you brought up. It's about the demonstrable fact that incomes rise as people assimilate into the host culture. I mean the facts are the facts. Third generation Mexicans that learned English as their first language earn something like 300% (sorry, I'm going off memory) more than third generation Mexicans who are raised with Spanish as their first language.

And the English speaking Mexicans consider themselves proud Mexican-Americans just like there are tons of proud Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, Polish-Americans, etc. They don't feel a loss of identity with their cultural roots.

[PiAnt]

I think that the US is an exception insofar as the identities you mention such as don't transpose to, say, the UK; Polish-Britons, Italian-Britons etc, just don't exist and, I suspect that if one were to ask, most people who had obtained British citizenship would declare themselves to be of their previous nationality.

The US, of course, has always been a mixture of different cultures, and some of them still haven't entirely managed to live together in harmony.

What's really bothersome about it is that most immigrants who do wish to immigrate to the UK (or many other European nations), do so with no intention whatsoever of assimilating themselves into the society the wish to adopt, nor do they have any intention of contributing anything to that society and, in many instances, feel little more than loathing for much that that society may stand for (though, I'm sure if asked (are they asked?), why they wish to immigrate, they fall over themselves to answer because they want to assimilate and to learn new cultures, adopt new ways and to contribute).

As far as I am concerned, if someone wishes to immigrate to another society which has very different cultural mores, should be willing to adopt them.

[StuckinBKK]

Try going to Bradford, Leicester and any other part of the UK where 20 years of mass immigration has led to the white skinned natives being unable to walk the streets safely because of their colour, and give an honest answer on multiculturalism

As it was part of the last UK government to alter the make up of the UK forever imho such destruction of indigenous way of life should be punished as an act of treason.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

Its quite obvious that if a nation allows millions of unskilled workers in who are willing to live 10/20 to a house enabling them to undercut the wages of a native with a mortgage and family to pay for thus putting him out of work or at least lowering his wages thus standard of living itll lead to problems, and when the ordinary guy voices his opinion its silenced by the liberal ruling classes and their student union bar style of political thought, by playng the racist card.

I shall be working as an immigrant in Kazakhstan shortly, entering with a skilled visa as the client wants a native English speaker, once the jobs over i am kicked out of there, such basic common sense has been lost in the west. Though of course highly skilled and wealthy folk should be encouraged to come to Britain aswell as spouses and legitimate asylum seekers, pity its gone too far though.

Edited August 4, 2011 by StuckinBKK

[CiaranM]

Try going to Bradford, Leicester and any other part of the UK where 20 years of mass immigration has led to the white skinned natives being unable to walk the streets safely because of their colour, and give an honest answer on multiculturalism

As it was part of the last UK government to alter the make up of the UK forever imho such destruction of indigenous way of life should be punished as an act of treason.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

Its quite obvious that if a nation allows millions of unskilled workers in who are willing to live 10/20 to a house enabling them to undercut the wages of a native with a mortgage and family to pay for thus putting him out of work or at least lowering his wages thus standard of living itll lead to problems, and when the ordinary guy voices his opinion its silenced by the liberal ruling classes and their student union bar style of political thought, by playng the racist card.

I shall be working as an immigrant in Kazakhstan shortly, entering with a skilled visa as the client wants a native English speaker, once the jobs over i am kicked out of there, such basic common sense has been lost in the west. Though of course highly skilled and wealthy folk should be encouraged to come to Britain aswell as spouses and legitimate asylum seekers, pity its gone too far though.

geeeeeezzzz .... a farang stuck in bkk, going to work in Kazakhstan .... moaning about immigrants .... who'd a ******* thought it !!!

[LakeGeneve]

Try going to Bradford, Leicester and any other part of the UK where 20 years of mass immigration has led to the white skinned natives being unable to walk the streets safely because of their colour, and give an honest answer on multiculturalism

As it was part of the last UK government to alter the make up of the UK forever imho such destruction of indigenous way of life should be punished as an act of treason.

"White skin natives"??? "destruction of indigenous way of life"? "Act of treason"?

What is this "indigenous way of life" that you refer to? Eating **** food, incessantly talking about the weather and being a football yob? Does that characterisation sound nicely superficial enough?

I was under the impression thought that the only indigenous people in the UK were some Welsh, Scots, Cornish and Irish? Are not most english "white skin natives" descended from german immigrant tribes (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-396406/Were-Germans--1-600-years.html), and Viking & Normans invaders?

[StuckinBKK]

geeeeeezzzz .... a farang stuck in bkk, going to work in Kazakhstan .... moaning about immigrants .... who'd a ******* thought it !!!

Im in England, but i visit Thailand on a 30 day tourist visa and will be out in the middle of the Caspian Sea so im hardly going to be pushing my culture of being a yob and eating **** food onto the Kazaks though i might complain about the weather.

[StuckinBKK]

"White skin natives"??? "destruction of indigenous way of life"? "Act of treason"?

The natives of England are white, just as they are black in Africa is this a problem for you?

Try going through one of the places i mentioned and tell me if you think this isnt destruction of the natives way of live.

What is this "indigenous way of life" that you refer to?

A sense of fair play something despite many faults of the English they used to have in abundance.

I was under the impression thought that the only indigenous people in the UK were some Welsh, Scots, Cornish and Irish? Are not most english "white skin natives" descended from german immigrant tribes (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-396406/Were-Germans--1-600-years.html), and Viking & Normans invaders?

If they invaded England then surely there were people they were invading i didnt read your article as no doubt its the usual anti English crap, there has been people on this Islands for 1000s of years, whilst of course there was immigration it was never of the destructive scale that has happened over the last 20 years.

Its an utter shambles but keep your head in the sand.

Here whilst your reading the Mail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022508/Seven-youths-labelled-pack-animals-given-total-74-years-prison-murder-schoolboy-16.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022520/The-primary-school-just-FOUR-pupils-500-speak-English-mother-tongue.html

[CiaranM]

The natives of England are white, just as they are black in Africa is this a problem for you?

Try going through one of the places i mentioned and tell me if you think this isnt destruction of the natives way of live.

we all came from Africa originally !!!

A sense of fair play something despite many faults of the English they used to have in abundance.

hahahaha ... now that was funny !!!! try telling that to the peoples/countries u colonised !!!

If they invaded England then surely there were people they were invading i didnt read your article as no doubt its the usual anti English crap, there has been people on this Islands for 1000s of years, whilst of course there was immigration it was never of the destructive scale that has happened over the last 20 years.

Its an utter shambles but keep your head in the sand.

i guess that's ur history of imperalism/colonisation coming back to bite u on the ass !!!!! karma can be a ***** sometimes !!!

[StuckinBKK]

we all came from Africa originally !!!

hahahaha ... now that was funny !!!! try telling that to the peoples/countries u colonised !!!

Ive never colonised any country i was born in the 1970s, id sooner the recent Scottish leaders of England would stop going to far flung places to murder innocents.

i guess that's ur history of imperalism/colonisation coming back to bite u on the ass !!!!! karma can be a ***** sometimes !!!

It was the ruling elites who benefited from colonising India and parts of Africa, mass economic immigration of unskilled people is good for them as it enables their companies to employ people on ever decreasing wages, so no Karma isnt biting their arse.

Almost unlimited immigration of economic migrants as we have in the UK has almost destroyed the once proud working classes and the areas they live in, that and outsourcing their jobs to the East for the profit of a few, but hey people like me are referred to as being racist by folk like yourself for pointing out the blindingly obvious.

[CiaranM]

Almost unlimited immigration of economic migrants as we have in the UK has almost destroyed the once proud working classes and the areas they live in, that and outsourcing their jobs to the East for the profit of a few, but hey people like me are referred to as being racist by folk like yourself for pointing out the blindingly obvious.

ppl like U r labelled as racist because u pedal bullshit and bollocks as fact !! the UK does NOT have unlimited immigration !!!

and maybe u should be directing ur anger/ire at the ******* english "elite" rather than the immigrants !!!

[StuckinBKK]

ppl like U r labelled as racist because u pedal bullshit and bollocks as fact !! the UK does NOT have unlimited immigration !!!

and maybe u should be directing ur anger/ire at the ******* english "elite" rather than the immigrants !!!

Ive pointed out facts its not bullshit, why dont you argue these facts instead of coming out with the predictable name calling.

As for unlimited immigration, we have 550 million Europeans with free access to the UK job market and benefits system, and another 75 million Turks with their porous borders waiting in the wings, not to mention the economic migrants who come here with a sob story.

Controlled immigration is obviously beneficial the system that mouthy keyboard warriors like yourself support is destructive.

[Stramash]

The natives of England are white, just as they are black in Africa is this a problem for you?

"Tacitus noted... while going on to describe the Silures, a southern British tribe as being dark like the Spaniards"

"Eighteen hundred years ago (so before there were any English on this island) the population of Britain comprised people of two types of complexion [254] –the one fair, and the other dark. The dark people resembled the Aquitani and the Iberians; the fair people were like the Belgic Gauls."

"The North Germans, who effected what is commonly called the Saxon conquest of Britain, were, most assuredly, a fair, yellow, or red-haired, blue-eyed, long-skulled people. So were the Danes and the Norsemen who followed them; though it is very possible that the active slave trade which went on, and the intercourse with Ireland, may have introduced a certain admixture of the dark stock into both Denmark and Norway. The Norman conquest brought in new ethnological elements, the precise value of which cannot be estimated with exactness; but as to their quality, there can be no question, inasmuch as even the wide area from which William drew his followers could yield him nothing but the fair and the dark [260] types of men, already present in Britain. But whether the Norman settlers, on the whole, strengthened the fair or the dark element, is a problem, the elements of the solution of which are not attainable."

http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE7/BrEthn.html

[CiaranM]

Ive pointed out facts its not bullshit, why dont you argue these facts instead of coming out with the predictable name calling.

As for unlimited immigration, we have 550 million Europeans with free access to the UK job market and benefits system, and another 75 million Turks with their porous borders waiting in the wings, not to mention the economic migrants who come here with a sob story.

Controlled immigration is obviously beneficial the system that mouthy keyboard warriors like yourself support is destructive.

FFS u racist jerk !!! the UK does have controlled immigration !!! and throwing around figures like 550 million Europeans and 75 millions Turks while giving the impression they r all just queuing up at the borders to "******* invade" ur 'little england" is typical right wing, facist bullshit !!!!

and what system of immigration do i support that is so destructive ?? do please enlighten me on that one !!!

[StuckinBKK]

"Tacitus noted... while going on to describe the Silures, a southern British tribe as being dark like the Spaniards"

"Eighteen hundred years ago (so before there were any English on this island) the population of Britain comprised people of two types of complexion [254] –the one fair, and the other dark. The dark people resembled the Aquitani and the Iberians; the fair people were like the Belgic Gauls."

"The North Germans, who effected what is commonly called the Saxon conquest of Britain, were, most assuredly, a fair, yellow, or red-haired, blue-eyed, long-skulled people. So were the Danes and the Norsemen who followed them; though it is very possible that the active slave trade which went on, and the intercourse with Ireland, may have introduced a certain admixture of the dark stock into both Denmark and Norway. The Norman conquest brought in new ethnological elements, the precise value of which cannot be estimated with exactness; but as to their quality, there can be no question, inasmuch as even the wide area from which William drew his followers could yield him nothing but the fair and the dark [260] types of men, already present in Britain. But whether the Norman settlers, on the whole, strengthened the fair or the dark element, is a problem, the elements of the solution of which are not attainable."

http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE7/BrEthn.html

Im no biologist but arent people in Northern Europe white because of the fact it enables them to draw more vitamin D from the sun in the colder darker months, hence by default if no immigrants were to come for many a year theyd presumably turn white eventually.

But to get off the topic of whitey being racist, it is not in the interest of a Thai working as a builder to have millions of cheap labourers from Cambodia/Burma undercutting them. Its good for those at the top in boosting their greedy profit for a fairly brainless business.

I was offered a job the other week working on Gas Storage tanks around the UK, the guy had exclusively Hungarians wokring for him, they were on 100GBP a day but were living 6 to a house, the wage for this kind of role should be around 300GBP, i could not take the job as this wage is not enought for me to live on yet Ciaran wishes to call someone who is unhappy about this racist.

PS My rent is 900PCM for a 2 bed slavebox, its almost impossible for me to survive on such a wage and have a existence similar to my father who worked in a similar industry.

[StuckinBKK]

FFS u racist jerk !!! the UK does have controlled immigration !!! and throwing around figures like 550 million Europeans and 75 millions Turks while giving the impression they r all just queuing up at the borders to "******* invade" ur 'little england" is typical right wing, facist bullshit !!!!

and what system of immigration do i support that is so destructive ?? do please enlighten me on that one !!!

Youre a mouthy little man.

[Stramash]

there has been people on this Islands for 1000s of years, whilst of course there was immigration it was never of the destructive scale that has happened over the last 20 years.

Hmmm. It strikes me that although you have passionate views on the state of this island (the UK) and the effects of immigration, you clearly have absolutely no clue whatsoever about any of that island's history. Perhaps spend a few days/weeks/months reading up on the history of those thousands of years of inhabitation you mentioned, then come back and discuss the destructive scales of immigration in the history of the Britons (sic)

[StuckinBKK]

Hmmm. It strikes me that although you have passionate views on the state of this island (the UK) and the effects of immigration, you clearly have absolutely no clue whatsoever about any of that island's history. Perhaps spend a few days/weeks/months reading up on the history of those thousands of years of inhabitation you mentioned, then come back and discuss the destructive scales of immigration in the history of the Britons (sic)

I know enough but my historical comment was on why peoples skin turned white

Im aware that many years ago we've been invaded by all sorts and no doubt when there wasnt these battles people jumped on their logs to come to this country.

But at the start middle and end of the day i couldnt really care less what happened here a 1000 years ago, the fact is we have had mass immigration of unskilled workers in the last 30 years especially the last 15 and it is destructive to proles like myself.

My major point on immigration (of low and unskilled people) is whether or not it lowers the standard of living for the working classes and it does. Those on the left try to be all people to everyone, you cant claim to give a shyt about British poor/working classes and have an open border policy with far poorer people from East/Central Europe. Youve only got to see unemployed whiteys with Staffordshire bullterriers and tribal tattoos all over the place to see this.

Anyway thats enough from me on this, im off to whiten my babies skin and get her goose stepping properly!

Edited August 6, 2011 by StuckinBKK

[CiaranM]

Youre a mouthy little man.

i may be mouthy ... but i ain't that little ... and i do tend to know what i'm mouthing off about .... maybe u should try that next time !!!

[StuckinBKK]

i may be mouthy ... but i ain't that little ... and i do tend to know what i'm mouthing off about .... maybe u should try that next time !!!

You havent actually offered anything to the debate other then a load of insults, is it insults you are knowledgeable about?

You must get beaten up all the time being such a mouthy fool.

Edit - Nice night in the multi cultural hellhole that is Tottenham last night, a riot it seems by a bunch of black thugs who didnt like the fact the police shot back at their mate. If whitey was to do the same in BKK/Pattaya youd no doubt be calling for them to be booted out the country.

Edited August 7, 2011 by StuckinBKK

[Stramash]

I know enough but my historical comment was on why peoples skin turned white

Im aware that many years ago we've been invaded by all sorts and no doubt when there wasnt these battles people jumped on their logs to come to this country.

But at the start middle and end of the day i couldnt really care less what happened here a 1000 years ago, the fact is we have had mass immigration of unskilled workers in the last 30 years especially the last 15 and it is destructive to proles like myself.

My major point on immigration (of low and unskilled people) is whether or not it lowers the standard of living for the working classes and it does. Those on the left try to be all people to everyone, you cant claim to give a shyt about British poor/working classes and have an open border policy with far poorer people from East/Central Europe. Youve only got to see unemployed whiteys with Staffordshire bullterriers and tribal tattoos all over the place to see this.

Anyway thats enough from me on this, im off to whiten my babies skin and get her goose stepping properly!

That isn't historical; it's ethnological/biological and takes no account of the differences in climate over millenia. It is a fact, proven and documented, that before your German/Danish forefathers became 'the English' that there were dark skinned tribes living on these islands.

And what you have to remember about the recent history of immigration is that we plundered our former colonies and dependencies for all their skilled and semi skilled labour in the 2 decades after WW2. This has been the principal cause for slow development in many of those countries and why so many of them are still chaotic or 3rd world.

You have made only one valid point in your diatribes, and that was when you managed to steer away from the usual tabloid fed English white working class blindness and point the finger at the elite and the ruling classes.

The Empire disintegrated and now the Union is too (sing hallelujah).

Edited August 7, 2011 by Stramash

[Stramash]

But at the start middle and end of the day i couldnt really care less what happened here a 1000 years ago

Only by understanding where you came from will you have a ******* clue where you are going... (Me, 2011)