Facebook crossfire hits US Embassy

[Admin_2]

And now we've got another UK'er in here trying to hold on to the old roots. Get him off Google for once, and let's hear him actually try and speak!

[English_Bob]

Again, you're skirting around the point as usual when you're wrong. You saying that your grammar is better than mine when I say your accent isn't clear is like you telling me you can dance salsa better than me after I say I can run faster than you!

Is that what I was saying here?

So, just to conclude, Rob, you're saying my spelling, punctuation and grammar are better than yours. But you can say words that end with 'R' better than I.

;-)

I just want to check... Everything I say is unclear because I don't use a rhotic accent?

[funky_house]

For Wob...I mean Rob. :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJl46b0NLKI

[SKYWARRIOR]

Woy Owbison must be wolling in his gwave.

[Stramash]

And now we've got another UK'er in here trying to hold on to the old roots. Get him off Google for once, and let's hear him actually try and speak

It's not about holding on to the 'old roots'. If anything, there is a move away from that in the UK. It used to be that the BBC would only ever have TV journalists who spoke 'BBC English' with all trace of dialect wiped away by either education or elocution. Now that is changing and there is a wide range of accents/dialects to be found on any BBC news programme; from Scottish to Welsh to Geordie. I'm not getting involved in the grammar argument; I can often make mistakes in that area myself. I was just making the point that there is no such thing as a voice with no accent. Personally I think that accents etc are more a product of both educational background and, in some cases, socio-economic status.

I can speak fluent 'Glaswegian' with strong accent and colloquialisms, but I can also speak with near perfect pronunciation and diction when the situation calls for it (eg; when speaking in Court or at a national conference). I think some accents, on both sides of the pond, absolutely murder the English language, though perhaps a few more that side than this!

[Stramash]

Look dad; no google!

[English_Bob]

If the purpose of language (in all four forms) is communication, then accent is only an issue if it impedes comprehension.

My accent is so mixed that native speakers - even from my home town - can rarely guess which country I'm from. I don't pronounce final 'R's', but that doesn't mean I'm incomprehensible, any more than softening middle 'T's' to 'D's' affects American communication.

Generally, Thais find me very easy to understand - ask those who know me. I always use complete sentences and refuse to resort to pigeon English.

If Rob has trouble understanding me, that would suggest it's HIS problem rather than mine.In future, I'll try to use simple words for his benefit.

See **** run. See Jane run. **** and Jane can run.

Is that bedder?

Edited December 17, 2011 by English_Bob

[Admin_2]

lol, that was fun.

[English_Bob]

lol, that was fun.

Agreed...

Slightly back on topic... I was perusing Craigslist Thailand the other day, looking for camera gear and sexual deviants, when I came across a section called... [actually PM me for details].

There's a guy in there writing really terrible things that would have the site shut down in a second if the right/wrong people noticed. He's definitely not in country, or he wouldn't be half so bold.

[FarangFarang]

US told: Stop meddling in lese majeste

About 200 supporters of the royalist Siam Samakkhi group rallied outside the United States embassy in Bangkok on Friday, demanding that Washington stop interfering with Thai laws, culture and domestic affairs.

The group's representatives handed a petition letter to the embassy officials about 3pm.

In the petition, the group also demanded ambassador Kristie Kenney to apologise for her comments.

The ambassador wrote on her twitter page last week, when asked for her opinions on Article 112, known as lese majeste law, that she had utmost respect for the Thai monarchy, but was "troubled by prosecutions inconsistent with international standard of freedom of expression''.

The US embassy yesterday issued a statement reiterating that the US government has the utmost respect for the Thai monarchy, the royal family and Thai culture.

President Barack Obama, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and the US embassy in Bangkok all recently offered heartfelt congratulations to His Majesty the King on the very special occasion of his 84th birthday anniversary on Dec 5 this year.

"Thailand is our oldest friend in Asia and we will continue to stand by the Thai people.

"We respect Thai laws and do not take sides in Thailand's internal affairs. We support freedom of expression around the world and consider it a fundamental human right,'' the statement said.

Meanwhile, 15 university academics proposed in a statement that there should be a committee to screen all lese majeste lawsuits before they are brought to the court to prevent Section 112 of the Criminal Code from being wrongfully used for persecution.

The 15 academics are Charnwit Kasetsiri, Chalong Suntrawanich, Kasira Techapira, Chaiyan Chaiyaporn, Surat Horachaikul, Supamit Pitipat, Saichol Sattayanurak, Atthachak Sattayanurak, Pichai Rattanadilok na Phuket, Somchai Preechasilpakul, Kriangsak Chethapattanavanich, Apichart Sathitniramai, Chamnan Chanruang, Sitthithep Eksithipong, and Chankij Khanchong.

The statement said Section 112, or the lese majeste law, has been wrongfully used as a political took by people of all sides to persecute their opponents, causing widespread and violent impact on people who honestly express their opinion and greatly affecting the monarchy.

The wrongful use of lese majeste law has also widened political conflict and curtailed the political rights and freedom of the people in democracy, causing a great loss of opportunity to solve political conflict through democratic means.

Amid an unending argument and controversy as to whether Section 112 should be abolished, the academics proposed a way out at this immediate stage.

They said a committee should be set up to screen all lese majeste lawsuits before they are brought to the court.

The committee should comprise respected individuals from many sectors such as government officials representing the administrative branch, MPs and senators representing parliament, members of the National Human Rights Commission, the prosecution, academics, ordinary people, and labour organisations.

Only lawsuits selected by the committee should be allowed to proceed in the judicial process, the statement said.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/world/271175/us-told-stop-meddling-in-lese-majeste

More from the debate champions. Shut up or get out!

[kaunitz]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/world/271175/us-told-stop-meddling-in-lese-majeste

More from the debate champions. Shut up or get out!

That's one side and it is valid. On the other hand, I doubt that US government (and thus embassadors) respect anything but their own interests. Don't listen to WHAT they say, listen to HOW they say it and read the internal comments that are leaking out every now and then....

[FarangFarang]

That's one side and it is valid. On the other hand, I doubt that US government (and thus embassadors) respect anything but their own interests. Don't listen to WHAT they say, listen to HOW they say it and read the internal comments that are leaking out every now and then....

Which would be great if Thailand didn't need foreign aid and investment. Since it does, they should listen to constructive criticism. This sort of reminds me of the big shock in Thailand earlier this year when the US placed Thailand on a watch list for piracy. It was beyond these politician's comprehension that they staged all of these massive photo-op crackdowns and the US wasn't giving them credit. Those pesky Americans were actually wanting results, like, you know, not being able to openly buy pirated DVD's on one of the busiest streets in the country.

Of course everyone is looking out for their self-interests but it's a global economy. If Thailand wants to build up an economy that is almost completely self-reliant they are free to go their own way. But they didn't. They're an export economy which relies heavily on countries like the US and regions like Europe. So when the US and Europe "suggest" that Thailand move towards greater respect for freedom of expression then it's something Thailand should consider if they wish to continue doing business with those countries/regions.

And keep in mind, the UN has singled out Thailand on this issue as well. It's not just the US looking out for their interests.

[FarangFarang]

Now, even if you're Thai you shouldn't question the law or if you do want to question it you can get the fuck out and live overseas.

Prayuth: Be quiet on on bombs, lese majeste

Army chief Prayuth Chano-cha has urged the public to refrain from discussing the possibility bombings during the New Year holiday, and the issue of the lese majeste law.

"Don't start talking about possible bombings and stir up unrest during the New Year, because it could hurt tourism," Gen Prayuth said before visiting the three southern border provinces of Narathiwat, Pattani and Yala on Tuesday morning.

He asked the people to work with the authorities and monitor the situation in their areas.

People should not be calling on the authorities to amend Section 112 of the Criminal Procedure Code, the lese majeste law, he said.

"Personally, I feel we should not talk about this and I don't want it to go overboard. If people think Thai law is unjust or too harsh, they can go live abroad.

"I would like Thai people to stop confronting each other and creating conflict," the national army chief said.

Defence Minister Gen Yutthasak Sasiprapa said he had ordered the armed forces to assist police assigned to ensure security during the New Year celebrations in Bangkok.

Military police would be deployed to support police in areas seen as being prone to violence, including the ten spots where bombs exploded four years ago, he said.

“I believe everything will be all right but we will send military police to help police in certain areas such as Ratchaprasong intersection, Silom and Khao San Roads, and RCA (Royal City Avenue), the main celebration sites,’’ he said.

Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung has also voiced opposition to amending the lese majeste law.

"Thailand has prospered because of the main institution. Without the main institution, where would the country be?

"Because of His Majesty's compassion and graciousness in all areas, Thailand has gone from poverty to prosperity, from being an underdeveloped country to a developing country.

"The Thai people have the knowledge like other countries and we're second to none in the Asean," Mr Chalerm said Tuesday.

He said he had been always clear about his stance on the lese majeste law.

"Why change Section 112 since it's good already? Don't they [people who want Section 112 amended] have jobs to go to?"

Mr Chalerm said he would chair a meeting of the committee for dealing with websites with lese majeste content late today and a war room would be set up for this committee.

He said he will hold talks with True Corp, an internet service provider, while national police chief Priewpan Damapong will meet officials from TOT, CAT Telecom and 3BB.

If the four companies cooperate with the authorities, websites with lese majeste content could be intercepted, the deputy premier said.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/security/271686/prayuth-hush-on-bombs-lese-majeste

[FarangFarang]

"The Thai people have the knowledge like other countries and we're second to none in the Asean," Mr Chalerm said Tuesday.

You know, except for:

Singapore

Philippines

and Malaysia and Indonesia depending on what scale you're grading them on (GDP, growth rate, etc).

In the thread about Kim Jong Ill's death there was some comments about the media control the state has and how the people actually believe all of the N. Korean governments propaganda because they have no other source of news.

This kind of crap is right there with that. Why didn't one reporter stand up and ask, "I'm sorry sir, but are you fucking retarded? On what scale are we ahead of Singapore or The Philippines?" Or why didn't someone stand up and ask, "Mr. Charlerm, have you ever looked up the word "democracy" in a dictionary? Are you aware that it is not only the right but the duty of the people to question unjust laws or laws that the people think are not needed? How the fuck does someone as clueless as you get into government?"

It doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with the lese majeste law, it's the right of the people to question the law. That right is the entire cornerstone of democracy. If no laws were ever challenged no change happens. Women wouldn't be allowed to vote. We would still have slavery.

The beauty of democracy is that it constantly evolves to the needs of the people (not the government).

[FarangFarang]

Same story from AFP

Thai army chief opposes change to royal insult law

(AFP) – 8 hours ago

BANGKOK — Thailand's powerful army chief expressed opposition on Tuesday to amending the country's lese majeste law, recently criticised by the West, saying those who oppose it should move abroad.

Critics say that Thailand has suppressed freedom of expression with stepped up use of the legislation, under which anyone convicted of insulting the king, queen, heir or regent faces up to 15 years in prison on each count.

"It is not appropriate to discuss this. Personally I will do my part for national security in protecting (the monarchy)," General Prayut Chan-O-Cha told reporters.

When asked about activists calling for reform of the law, he said they "must go and live in foreign countries".

"Although we are a democracy, don't go too far," he added.

The United States, the European Union and the United Nations have expressed concern over recent convictions, which have also sparked small protests both for and against the law in the Thai capital Bangkok.

A 61-year-old Thai man was jailed last month for 20 years for sending text messages deemed insulting to the monarchy, while a US citizen has since been handed two-and-a-half years in prison for defaming the king.

The convictions intensified debates on the issue on social media websites, although a committee was set up earlier this month to clamp down on online insults to the monarchy.

Despite mounting rights concerns, deputy prime minister Chalerm Yubamrung was also on the defensive when asked about the law on Tuesday.

"I think there is no need for any changes. Why do we need change when the law is already good?" he said.

"I don't want to comment on this issue, but whoever wants to amend this law, their lives will not be prosperous," he told reporters at Government House.

Last week, the US embassy in Bangkok requested users on its Facebook page to refrain from abusive language, after a torrent of angry messages from Thais defending the law and the monarchy.

About 100 royalists also gathered in front of the US embassy on Friday in support of law following the criticism from Washington.

Opponents of the law say it has increasingly been used in Thailand to stifle free speech, particularly under the last government, which was supported by the Bangkok-based elite.

Observers say the new government of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra, who came to power in August, is yet to improve the situation, and there have been two rare protests against the laws this month.

Last week a "Red Shirt" activist was sentenced to 15 years in jail accused of defaming the royals during speeches at political rallies in 2008.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hkaWmC1p9Co_8Y8lihGWwUT7T_cw?docId=CNG.26ca44d2792efc30a1d45b7e1da3908a.4b1

[CiaranM]

The beauty of democracy is that it constantly evolves to the needs of the people (not the government).

i'm not sure that is does Bill .... IMO democracy in the USA and UK would appear to have evolved to the needs of big business !!!

and how democratic r our countries .... i think the last labour government in the uk ended up with a majority in parliment despite getting less than 40% of the votes cast ... and voter turnout was less than 60% (if memory serves me correctly). so in effect labour ended up with an democratically elected majority from less than 25% of the electorate !!!

now obviously part of the blame is with ppl who can't be arsed getting up off their asses and voting .... BUT in the first past the post system in the UK it's a waste of time voting in some areas as the seats are "safe" tory, labour or lib/dem seats !!

and don't even get me started on the voting ******* trends in northern ireland .... if we truely do get the goverment we deserve ... we're f**ked !!!

[FarangFarang]

i'm not sure that is does Bill .... IMO democracy in the USA and UK would appear to have evolved to the needs of big business !!!

and how democratic r our countries .... i think the last labour government in the uk ended up with a majority in parliment despite getting less than 40% of the votes cast ... and voter turnout was less than 60% (if memory serves me correctly). so in effect labour ended up with an democratically elected majority from less than 25% of the electorate !!!

now obviously part of the blame is with ppl who can't be arsed getting up off their asses and voting .... BUT in the first past the post system in the UK it's a waste of time voting in some areas as the seats are "safe" tory, labour or lib/dem seats !!

and don't even get me started on the voting fucking trends in northern ireland .... if we truely do get the goverment we deserve ... we're fucked !!!

Well, at least we aren't told to leave our own country because we ask whether or not a law is appropriate.

[FarangFarang]

Battle lines drawn over lese majeste

Monarchists and electoral democrats remain entrenched as calls grow for reform

Published: 31/12/2011 at 12:00 AMNewspaper section: News

From a taboo subject, the lese majeste law has grown to become an elephant in the room of Thai politics. The problem is too big to ignore, but there is no coherent way to address it because of the extreme sensitivity and culture of fear associated with the issue.

"The lese majeste law has become a battleground in Thailand's political divide which pits monarchists on one side and electoral democrats on the other, with much overlap between them," said Thitinan Pongsudhirak, a political analyst and columnist for the Bangkok Post.

When Swiss national Oliver Jufer was sentenced to 10 years in jail for defacing an image of His Majesty the King in 2007 _ the first to be convicted under this law for more than a decade _ reaction was muted.

Jufer was released on a royal pardon and deported after serving two weeks in jail.

Fast forward to the present. The sentencing of the latest three lese majeste convicts _ 61-year-old Ampon Tangnoppakul, Thai-born American citizen Joe Gordon and political activist Daranee Charnchoengsilpakul _ in the space of less than a month has sparked a cacophony of protests and counter-protests.

In late November, Ampon was sentenced to 20 years in jail for sending four short messages offending the monarchy. Right after that, Gordon, whose Thai name is Lerpong Wichaikhammat, got a 30-month jail term for translating a banned biography of the King, while Daranee, known as Da Torpedo, was sentenced to 15 years in prison for insulting the King.

An outcry against the harsh punishments and what is seen as a problematic application of the law came not only from progressive groups inside the country but at international level as well.

The European Union expressed "deep concern" at Ampon's jailing and urged Thai authorities to ensure that the rule of law is applied in a way that is consistent with upholding basic human rights.

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights was more forthright. Ravina Shamdasani, the agency's acting spokeswoman, called on Thailand to amend the lese majeste law. Harsh sentencing has a chilling effect on freedom of expression, she said.

The opinions were met with a sharp rebuke from ultra-royalist groups who staged demonstrations at these organisations' headquarters and told them not to meddle in Thailand's affairs.

Army chief Prayuth Chan-ocha also joined the fray when he recently told reporters that people who wished to amend the lese majeste law should "go and live overseas".

On the surface, the dividing line regarding the issue is clear. On the one side stand conservative and ultra-royalist groups who demand the law be kept in place, even strengthened with harsher punishment, to protect the highly revered institution of the monarchy.

On the other side are a range of people with a progressive agenda who either propose that the law be reformed so that it is more consistent with the democratic principle of freedom of expression or that it be revoked altogether.

At a deeper level, the lese majeste issue may belie a more profound contest of ideologies that are rarely discussed.

"Barely hidden beneath the surface of the growing debate around the law and its use are the most basic issues defining the relationship between those in power and the governed; equality before the law, rights and liberties, the source of sovereign power, and even the system of government of the polity _ whether Thailand is to be primarily a constitutional monarchy, a democratic system of governance with the King as head of state, or a democracy," wrote David Streckfuss in his book Truth on Trial in Thailand: Defamation, Treason and Lese Majeste.

According to Mr Thitinan, as the monarchy becomes the political fault line, there is a risk the lese majeste law will be increasingly utilised by monarchists to suppress others.

"More LM cases are likely next year and beyond. Without amendments, the LM law risks becoming a self-fulfilling situation whereby it generates unintended anti-monarchy sentiments by stifling the freedom of fair expression," said the academic from Chulalongkorn University.

The risk, according to Mr Streckfuss, is that since the outcry from the public and from foreign governments is growing, there will come a breaking point.

"The risk is that an increased number of cases will cause alienation. The reaction to cases like 'Ah Kong' [Ampon] shows the breaking point might have already been reached," he said.

The government's response to the lese majeste challenge at present is to hype up crackdown attempts.

Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung, who is in charge of a new LM suppression committee, made it clear he would not seek an amendment to the law. In fact, he recently sought cabinet approval to procure a so-called lawful interception system costing 400 million baht to help track offensive websites.

"The use of the LM law and the Computer Crimes Act is counterproductive," says political analyst Chris Baker.

These laws, he added, are supposed to protect the monarchy from criticism and abuse, but every usage provokes more criticism than it prevents.

Playing cyber cat-and-mouse is also a futile exercise. "Websites that are removed soon reappear elsewhere. Blocks on sites are easy to get around," he said.

Both Mr Thitinan and Mr Baker agreed the best way to address the problematic application of the lese majeste law is to amend it.

"Thailand has updated other laws in line with the times and the world. This is a glaring exception. Every new case serves to undermine the institution and damages Thailand in the eyes of the world," Mr Baker said.

According to Mr Thitinan, while constructive proposals have been on the table for some time _ to lower the maximum jail term of 15 years per offence, to revoke the need for a minimum punishment of three years or to set up an agency to screen complaints _ the legal infrastructure that any Thai can charge any Thai must be abolished.

"Some entity representing the aggrieved must be the source of charges, not Thais against Thais, which fosters a social cancer of sorts," he said.

He sees some possibilities for common ground on this divisive issue but they require open debate and a move away from "the dark prosecution of critics which may lead to LM amendments".

Mr Streckfuss said it is time for moderate, reasonable people to take part in addressing this issue.

"There is now a fairly broad consensus in Thai society that the law is prone to abuse and needs to change in some way," he said.

"There is still a chance that Thailand will not topple over the precipice in facing this issue. If we show enough restraint, tolerance and generosity of spirit, we can go through this process without the acrimony that has defined so much of politics recently, and become stronger as a result."

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/273166/battle-lines-drawn-over-lese-majeste