CiaranM Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 The people I am most involved with these days are from the catholic side, I work in Stormont and share a kitchen with Sinn Fein and pass Marty McGuiness at least once a week. I'm sure you won't claim these guys are Saints. Truthfully I do think some are good people like Catriona Ruane is 1 of the most friendly people I have met but working with the DRD Committee and Conor Murphy, I honestly have never got a good guy vibe from him. Recently I have been swaying towards Sinn Fein's side over DUP's because of their support on environmental issues, PPS14 etc and DUP are just conts we are fighting them on every motion. The people I am talking about are the young lads from either side of the community who hate either Catholic or Protestant and are involved in sectarian violence. You see these "steeks" on the streets beating / killing people, stealing cars, etc wearing their Rangers / Celtic tops throwing bricks at the police. These are the inbred catholic / protestant bigots. Maybe I have not seen the Catholic side 1st hand but I know how ignorant and non religious the protestant side is. If the catholics on the opposite side are religious people and doing the same as the "steeky prods" on this side then I would have to question the morals taught in the Catholic Church. None of the people i know who were "born again" were ever in jail. i certainly wouldn't describe those guys as saints, but i do happen to know that Martin McGuiness comes from a pretty religious background and this was the point i was trying to make !! also when u were talking about the "war between catholics and protestants" i was assuming u were talking about the period from (roughly) 1969 to 1994 as since then the two sides have been (supposedly) at peace. however, if u r talking about nowadays i would agree there has been a breakdown in family values/moral standards, but this i would argue is a world wide problem and not confined to northern ireland. also i have to confess i am very disappointed to hear that this "hate" is still prevalent in northern ireland. i haven't lived there since 1996, but on my visits back there i always got the impression things had improved enormously and relations between the two communities had got much better.although belfast has always been the "secterian" flashpoint in northern ireland !! as to the morals of the catholic church .... i better not get stared on that one or i'll be here all day. one of the things i have argued for years is that we should not have segregated schools in northern ireland !! and the churches should NOT be involved in education !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 ...I think Christianity (or any religion) is needed to teach people moral values ... actually, it isn't. some may find this hard to believe but people are perfectly capable of having moral values without having any connection to religion whatsoever. actually H. sapiens is even predisposed toward having moral values (it's a groupishness thing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranM Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 I think Christianity (or any religion) is needed to teach people moral values but also believe that those who believe trully in it are either naive or weak willed people who need change in their life. missed this first time around .... and sorry i disagree. i believe ppl know what is right and what is wrong and do NOT need religion to teach them !!! IMO organised religion has done more harm than good in the world !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 I think Christianity (or any religion) is needed to teach people moral values but also believe that those who believe trully in it are either naive or weak willed people who need change in their life. missed this first time around .... and sorry i disagree. i believe ppl know what is right and what is wrong and do NOT need religion to teach them !!! IMO organised religion has done more harm than good in the world !! yeah. there seems to be considerable evidence that the capacity for morals is built into us as a species. like grammar, it is shaped by cultural norms but no, there is no reason to believe that religiion is needed to teach people moral values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 I think Christianity (or any religion) is needed to teach people moral values but also believe that those who believe trully in it are either naive or weak willed people who need change in their life. missed this first time around .... and sorry i disagree. i believe ppl know what is right and what is wrong and do NOT need religion to teach them !!! IMO organised religion has done more harm than good in the world !! yeah. there seems to be considerable evidence that the capacity for morals is built into us as a species. like grammar, it is shaped by cultural norms but no, there is no reason to believe that religiion is needed to teach people moral values. It's funny how to some people this is so easily understood and more than an acceptable explanation of human development, without giving it too much thought. and to others. well i'm sure Sawasdee brother will definitely have some differing thoughts on this. :roll: i'd love to see his "thoughts" on evolution... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranM Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 i'd love to see his "thoughts" on evolution... could nearly be worth a whole new forum !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 I'm just wondering about Sawasdee buddy boy, he's a Texan too yeah, i wonder if he's a gun nut as well.??? the legendary Scutfargus is a Texan... quite hoping homie takes the evolution bait... looking forward to dropping some science on 'im. there are a few others on here, too, who might enjoy another round of this.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 ...I think Christianity (or any religion) is needed to teach people moral values ... actually, it isn't. some may find this hard to believe but people are perfectly capable of having moral values without having any connection to religion whatsoever. actually H. sapiens is even predisposed toward having moral values (it's a groupishness thing). You don't have to be a Christian to make stupid generalizations. It helps but it's not necessary clearly. That would have meant: H sapiens does contain a few specimens who don't have any moral values whatsoever, and even more who aren't into the groupishness thing. mugshot.. on his way to um... prison.... proves the lack of groupishness and values? in other words by showing an example of someone subjected to a group's rules and punished as a 'cheater'... you've shown that humans are not groupish, dont' have rules and don't punish cheaters? brilliant. i'm assuming your'e not christian? thanks for proving your point about stupid generalizations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhumvit_Farang Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 I think Christianity (or any religion) is needed to teach people moral values but also believe that those who believe trully in it are either naive or weak willed people who need change in their life. missed this first time around .... and sorry i disagree. i believe ppl know what is right and what is wrong and do NOT need religion to teach them !!! IMO organised religion has done more harm than good in the world !! Of course! People have an innate sense of what is right and wrong. To suggest that we need religion to help us distinguish between right and wrong is patently ridiculous. I am atheist, and I can nonetheless tell you at least some of the things that are immoral: (1) Stealing; (2) Killing people; (3) lying to, cheating, deceiving or otherwise misleading people; etc. In sum, I would say that we should treat people as we would wish to be treated ourselves. Does anybody really need religion to figure that out? If you do, then I don't think I want to be around you anyway. That being said, even though I think that almost everyone can innately distinguish between right and wrong, some people still choose to do wrong. This applies both to religious people and non-religious ones. For these circumstances, we have laws to punish offenders. I would also agree that religion has done more harm than good in the world. This is because religion requires people to suspend their thinking. Once that is done, anything is possible - and that is usually when bad things happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 ...I think Christianity (or any religion) is needed to teach people moral values ... actually, it isn't. some may find this hard to believe but people are perfectly capable of having moral values without having any connection to religion whatsoever. actually H. sapiens is even predisposed toward having moral values (it's a groupishness thing). You don't have to be a Christian to make stupid generalizations. It helps but it's not necessary clearly. That would have meant: H sapiens does contain a few specimens who don't have any moral values whatsoever, and even more who aren't into the groupishness thing. mugshot.. on his way to um... prison.... proves the lack of groupishness and values? in other words by showing an example of someone subjected to a group's rules and punished as a 'cheater'... you've shown that humans are not groupish, dont' have rules and don't punish cheaters? brilliant. i'm assuming your'e not christian? thanks for proving your point about stupid generalizations. Aha, he woke up. You're so full of your own sh*t you didn't get it the first time; aren't you. That's so very brilliant of yourself. i would say exactly that about you, sunshine. except i'd add that you'd be a lot less full of your own ****, if you weren't so far up your own ass. You only pretended humans don't need religion for moral values because they all have that homo sapiens trait of being social and groupish. so what ARE you saying, that without religion no one would have moral values? all i said was that humans can learn moral values without religion, because we're predisposed toward living in groups and toward having values of some sort. it would help if, when you get on your soapbox, you actually read what you're responding to before you start foaming at the mouth. I have given just one example of the fact that being human doesn't mean you are social or have moral values. i'd say you have also given an example of human society rooting out a cheater. i don't recall saying that being human guarantees you are social or have moral values. i woudln't even say it guarantees you have opposable thumbs. you can't prove cats aren't mammals by showing a mammal that's not a cat either. so what exactly did you prove here, except that you dont' bother to read before you get on your soapbox? Groups (not less than this bunch here on TF, wait till they get on to someone) like to tell themselves they use moral values to fend off predators but that only proves the point: human predators exist. read whatever you want into what i wrote, but are you dropping acid or something? your response has sweet **** all to do with what i said. and "human predators exist" proves what again? are you off on some tangent? are your eyes glazed over yet? And me christian, what point are you trying to make? that you made a stupid generalization. i guess i have to spell it out for you don't i. should i type s l o w e r maybe? use bigger letters? I'm only stating that by saying bye to christianity no one has been saved from non-religious but equally dumb generalizations now based on the scientific garbage we all may vaguely remember from a couple of 400 baht sci-pop classics. i don't recall saying anyone would be saved from anything, just that our capacity to have morality and systems of values appears to be built in. speaking of being saved from stupid generalizations, i'm glad i'm not paying to read yours. although entertaining, i'm disappointed because i'd previously had the impression that you might actually be somewhat intelligent. flail away at the straw man, sunshine, and feel free to read whatever you want into what i write. no wait, you already do that. is that a subtle way of offering yourself as an example of an asocial human with no principles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 ...Of course! People have an innate sense of what is right and wrong. no, you're wrong, resident polymath sushi boy just 'proved' it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alvish Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 Maybe moral values are intuitive but I still think they are helped by the church and the church encourages an honest, caring, charitable etc... lifestyle. The community aspect is also a big reason I would get my kids involved in a church. It is good for kids to be brought up in a friendly atmosphere, get to know other kids in the community etc. A lot of the positives from my childhood were from church groups like play group, youth clubs, summer schemes, BB, scouts. Was never a big fan of bible busters and never returned after getting laughed at for answering pinocchio was swallowed by the whale... who the fucks Jonah. C - NI has improved enormously and the executive is going well (so far), but unfortunately sectarianism will always be part of society, culture here. One worrying thing is the BNP are now making a move into Northern Ireland and have been doing leaflet drops in a number of the estates. Maybe they are diverting hatred elsewhere. Was great to see Anna Lo the 1st Chinese poitician in Europe elected in Northern Ireland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 ...Of course! People have an innate sense of what is right and wrong. no, you're wrong, resident polymath sushi boy just 'proved' it. seems you're dumb enough to still disagree depends on what you mean by "disagree." if your post were not posted in response to mine, it might invite a different reading, and i would tend to agree that a) you don't need religion to make stupid generalizations, and H. sapiens contains specimens that have no moral values. however, given you posted *in response* to mine, seems it is not a question of whether or not i agree with those statements, but rather whether i agree that "humans are predisposed toward having moral values" is a stupid generalization. and whether or not i agree that posting a pic of jeffrey dahmer demonstrates this. dummy that i are, i totally missed how what *i*really said was "all humans have moral values built in, and they're the same for everyone, and they work the same, and work very time." see i'm not smart enough to know what i actually said, i need *you* to enlighten me, oh great one. thanks for that. about the polymath thing, i wouldn't overdo it if i were youhow's the phd going anyway what degree? i are a a dummy, remmeber? i kudnt go to kollege i em not smert. so if you were me, you wouldn't overdo it.... or what? is this a rare moment of humilty---you don't like having mere mortals kowtow before your genius? :shock: now there's a dimension of you i never knowed existed. or do you mean you'll flex and demonstate your innate superiority? would you asserting how wonderful and brilliant you are somehow be different from your routine, and if not, i should fear this exactly why? everyone already *knows* your'e the smartest, best-educated, tallest, prettiest man, and have the biggest ****. after all, you told them. what else could you possibly add to a package like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranM Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 Maybe moral values are intuitive but I still think they are helped by the church and the church encourages an honest, caring, charitable etc... lifestyle. The community aspect is also a big reason I would get my kids involved in a church. It is good for kids to be brought up in a friendly atmosphere, get to know other kids in the community etc. A lot of the positives from my childhood were from church groups like play group, youth clubs, summer schemes, BB, scouts. Was never a big fan of bible busters and never returned after getting laughed at for answering pinocchio was swallowed by the whale... who the fucks Jonah. C - NI has improved enormously and the executive is going well (so far), but unfortunately sectarianism will always be part of society, culture here. One worrying thing is the BNP are now making a move into Northern Ireland and have been doing leaflet drops in a number of the estates. Maybe they are diverting hatred elsewhere. Was great to see Anna Lo the 1st Chinese poitician in Europe elected in Northern Ireland. good to hear things have improved back home and that was my impression on my visits back home. i still believe sectarianism can be rooted out, but it will take time, money and education. although there is the possibility some ppl will never change. the BNP moving into NI is a scary thought as they will only inflame the situation and make things worse, they really r an evil bunch. again though i gotta disagree about getting kids involved in the community through the churches. although i agree with fostering community spirit i don't believe the best way to do it is through the churches. i know things have changed a lot in recent years, but i went to a catholic school at the age of 4 in 1968 and have very very limited contacts with protestants until i left school and started work in 1982. we went to different schools, different youth clubs, different teenage discos, played different sports etc. and this seperation of ppl i believe is an enormous factor in the hatred and sectarianism we still have today !! even after leaving school (to some extent) we didn't work in the same areas, didn't go to the same pubs and clubs and even when playing the same sports it tended to be catholic teams and protestant teams !! crazy ain't it !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 I have it on the ultimate authority that all religions are bullsh*t. To assume that one needs to follow any specific religion, Christianity in particular, in order to be a person of morals, values and integrity shows the purporter of such to be either a fool, or someone just looking for an argument, cos no person with even half a brain would admit to such a ridiculous supposition. no person with half a brain (or more) would be on tf so i breathlessly await their opinion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SawasdeeScott Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 I just wanted to say may God richly bless you all... You are all future believers according to the Bible... every knee shall bow to God, and every tongue shall proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord of all... God recommends you do it now, while He offers you a plan of living in eternity in His presence for doing so... Just hope you hear Him.... Read the Bible. Do what it says!!! Some may interpret only bits and pieces, and take things out of context... Don't be decieved in doing so... the bottom line in the Bible is to do unto others as you would like them to do to you... that is, after of course first to love God, and second to love people... God bless you ladies and gentlemen... present and future believers in Christ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theRascalKing Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 I just wanted to say may God richly bless you all... You are all future believers according to the Bible... every knee shall bow to God, and every tongue shall proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord of all... God recommends you do it now, while He offers you a plan of living in eternity in His presence for doing so... Just hope you hear Him.... Read the Bible. Do what it says!!!Some may interpret only bits and pieces, and take things out of context... Don't be decieved in doing so... the bottom line in the Bible is to do unto others as you would like them to do to you... that is, after of course first to love God, and second to love people... God bless you ladies and gentlemen... present and future believers in Christ! I wouldn't lay any bets on me joining the cult of the nazerine any time. Very pretentious of you to assume EVERYONE will change to your brand of religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhumvit_Farang Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 the bottom line in the Bible is to do unto others as you would like them to do to you... So, you needed a bible and a religion to tell you to treat people the way you want to be treated? I guess some people are a bit dense. I reached the same conclusion on my own - without all of the baggage that comes with religions. Speaking of which, are you really sure that you want other people to treat you the way you treat them? Are you saying, then, that you want other people preaching at you to convert to THEIR religion - or lack of religion? Because if you really believe what your bible says, then you have to accept being treated the way you treat other people. In closing, may you be blessed by rationality - and eventually become the non-believer that we all will eventually become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 I just wanted to say may God richly bless you all... You are all future believers according to the Bible... every knee shall bow to God, and every tongue shall proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord of all... God recommends you do it now, while He offers you a plan of living in eternity in His presence for doing so... Just hope you hear Him.... Read the Bible. Do what it says!!!Some may interpret only bits and pieces, and take things out of context... Don't be decieved in doing so... the bottom line in the Bible is to do unto others as you would like them to do to you... that is, after of course first to love God, and second to love people... God bless you ladies and gentlemen... present and future believers in Christ! sorry, but i most definitely don't want to be treated the way you treat me, and you also apparently take exception to it when i treat you the way you treat me. where does that leave your sales pitch then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ngairo Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 I just wanted to say may God richly bless you all... You are all future believers according to the Bible... every knee shall bow to God, and every tongue shall proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord of all... God recommends you do it now, while He offers you a plan of living in eternity in His presence for doing so... Just hope you hear Him.... Read the Bible. Do what it says!!!Some may interpret only bits and pieces, and take things out of context... Don't be decieved in doing so... the bottom line in the Bible is to do unto others as you would like them to do to you... that is, after of course first to love God, and second to love people... God bless you ladies and gentlemen... present and future believers in Christ! That is merely your interpretation of the Bible and a very average play on words....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackerel Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 I was baptised, and I am a catholic. Nowadays I feel more like a budhist, certainly not a christian. I was raised though and HAD TO go to church when I was young.. This week a book came out to press. It's called "Believe in a God who doesn't exist, manifesto of an atheist clergyman" written by Klaas Hendrikse who doesn't believe in God. He is still preaching in Middelburg, Holland. Some people want him to stop preaching, and say he's the devil! I am very interested in his opinion, for he says God doesn't exist the way we have a picture of God in our mind. He believes that God is represented in communication between people and in little devine events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyavi Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 i am in the nintendo club. Some religious guidelines are like government laws that were not updated for 1000 years. However i think it is a good that the majority believes in something, it makes the life easier for some people. Maybe there is a god but i see no reason why he would want a male priest keep away from woman or why Vatican has to be so f++king rich. the main reason however is that i dislike seeing a church making politics, i don't see why religious influenced, fanatic prudes have to influence the censorship for example. if you want to see Boobs then u have the right to see the boobs. IMO all religions should be handled like clubs, open for people to join on free will and parents should not have decide it for their kids. i don't say that religion is a bad thing it is not about the believe, just a bit less influence here and there would do good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SawasdeeScott Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 I just wanted to say may God richly bless you all... You are all future believers according to the Bible... every knee shall bow to God, and every tongue shall proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord of all... God recommends you do it now, while He offers you a plan of living in eternity in His presence for doing so... Just hope you hear Him.... Read the Bible. Do what it says!!!Some may interpret only bits and pieces, and take things out of context... Don't be decieved in doing so... the bottom line in the Bible is to do unto others as you would like them to do to you... that is, after of course first to love God, and second to love people... God bless you ladies and gentlemen... present and future believers in Christ! I wouldn't lay any bets on me joining the cult of the nazerine any time. Very pretentious of you to assume EVERYONE will change to your brand of religion. Hey, I like your website.. http://www.TheWanderingVinlander.com it is a good little post you got going... didn't read all the details, but I like the journaling... what kind of voluteer work are you doing in Thailand??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theRascalKing Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 I just wanted to say may God richly bless you all... You are all future believers according to the Bible... every knee shall bow to God, and every tongue shall proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord of all... God recommends you do it now, while He offers you a plan of living in eternity in His presence for doing so... Just hope you hear Him.... Read the Bible. Do what it says!!!Some may interpret only bits and pieces, and take things out of context... Don't be decieved in doing so... the bottom line in the Bible is to do unto others as you would like them to do to you... that is, after of course first to love God, and second to love people... God bless you ladies and gentlemen... present and future believers in Christ! I wouldn't lay any bets on me joining the cult of the nazerine any time. Very pretentious of you to assume EVERYONE will change to your brand of religion. Hey, I like your website.. http://www.TheWanderingVinlander.com it is a good little post you got going... didn't read all the details, but I like the journaling... what kind of voluteer work are you doing in Thailand??? I am woefully behind in posting there. My Flickr photo page describes my travels in Thailand much better. http://flickr.com/photos/therascalking/sets/ I volunteered some time at a children's shelter also I volunteered to teach English is a small fishing/farming village near Ayuthaya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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