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English Grammar


MichaelGray
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I NEED TO KNOW THE RULES :) otherwise I feel that I dont really UNDERSTAND how things go... and MichaelGray: it is prettttty different thing to compare children learning the language by ear at that age with total immersion into the thing, than adults learning hour or two a day...:)

There's a book by Stern and Todesco called The Good Language Learner that backs up exactly what you and some others have said here. Analytical learners who can understand and manipulate the grammar system tend to learn languages more quickly and to a much higher proficiency than completely implicit or experiential learners. So if you need the rules, then you're on the right track (assuming you want to speak beyond a basic functional level).

And pretty much everything published since the 1970s "designer methods" makes a clear distinction between adult second language learning and childrens' first or second language acquisition. It's just not the same ballpark. Not even the same sport, really.

But as people have said, the question is not whether to study or not study grammar. The problem in Asia is there's too much emphasis on it, mostly due to the pressure of standardized tests. But, at least here in Japan, that seems to be changing -- albeit veeeeery slowly.

And one final note -- on the subject of "language ego." There is probably no faster or more efficient way to completely shut down a person's motivation to learn or use a language than to be mocked for trying. Support is what's needed, not criticism.

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The one thing that native English speakers on TF never seem to grasp is that if it were not for the English skills of Thai members, this site probably would not exist.

It's all too easy to take cheap shots at the errors of non-native English speakers. And usually the cheap shots come from native English speakers who are too f*cking stupid to realize how poor their own English skills are.

I know of a few Thai TFers who won't write journals or post in forums because they are self-conscious about their English ability. That's too bad, because it would give them a chance to practice what they've learned. But who can blame them when their efforts are rewarded with ridicule from a boorish, half-literate farang?

To Thai people who struggle with English, don't worry too much about making mistakes. I can assure you that your English is far better than my Thai!

oh blow me! your constant verbal flatulence is a better option? good thing you're so damn full of yourself...otherwise I would have to say you're full ****. just because you spend all your time licking the boots of a few members you think you're entitled to sit in judgement. Don't like a little "unprovoked ridicule"?...grow a ******* pair and then grow up. Members are all supposed to adults...right? And before you respond with another of your well thought out, grammatically correct, need a thesaurus to read blurbs of hot air...refer back to the first three words of this post.

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The one thing that native English speakers on TF never seem to grasp is that if it were not for the English skills of Thai members, this site probably would not exist.

It's all too easy to take cheap shots at the errors of non-native English speakers. And usually the cheap shots come from native English speakers who are too f*cking stupid to realize how poor their own English skills are.

I know of a few Thai TFers who won't write journals or post in forums because they are self-conscious about their English ability. That's too bad, because it would give them a chance to practice what they've learned. But who can blame them when their efforts are rewarded with ridicule from a boorish, half-literate farang?

To Thai people who struggle with English, don't worry too much about making mistakes. I can assure you that your English is far better than my Thai!

oh blow me! your constant verbal flatulence is a better option? good thing you're so damn full of yourself...otherwise I would have to say you're full sh*t. just because you spend all your time licking the boots of a few members you think you're entitled to sit in judgement. Don't like a little "unprovoked ridicule"?...grow a f*cking pair and then grow up. Members are all supposed to adults...right? And before you respond with another of your well thought out, grammatically correct, need a thesaurus to read blurbs of hot air...refer back to the first three words of this post.

FB2, I actually think the guy you are quoting made a decent point. I often notice how few Thais actually post in the forums, and believe it or not, I came on Thailandfriends to hear from Thai people and learn about Thailand. From Thais, not farangs. All the back biting and chest thumping in the main forum probably puts off plenty of the women on this site from posting, while the "your English is sh*t, allow me to mock it" attitude of a few other members bullies a few others out. Perhaps I should "grow some" too, but I'd rather read a post from Deester, Dr Sassy et al, than some angry farang, or over-analytical pompous nob end.

Just my opinion of course.

deester, dr sassy, et al respond plenty......if my "don't be a ******* baby!" attitude is hindering your ability to score chcks...well...you can blow me too......

as far as pompousness is concerned...I will let Rob respond to that

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The one thing that native English speakers on TF never seem to grasp is that if it were not for the English skills of Thai members, this site probably would not exist.

It's all too easy to take cheap shots at the errors of non-native English speakers. And usually the cheap shots come from native English speakers who are too f*cking stupid to realize how poor their own English skills are.

I know of a few Thai TFers who won't write journals or post in forums because they are self-conscious about their English ability. That's too bad, because it would give them a chance to practice what they've learned. But who can blame them when their efforts are rewarded with ridicule from a boorish, half-literate farang?

To Thai people who struggle with English, don't worry too much about making mistakes. I can assure you that your English is far better than my Thai!

oh blow me! your constant verbal flatulence is a better option? good thing you're so damn full of yourself...otherwise I would have to say you're full sh*t. just because you spend all your time licking the boots of a few members you think you're entitled to sit in judgement. Don't like a little "unprovoked ridicule"?...grow a f*cking pair and then grow up. Members are all supposed to adults...right? And before you respond with another of your well thought out, grammatically correct, need a thesaurus to read blurbs of hot air...refer back to the first three words of this post.

FB2, I actually think the guy you are quoting made a decent point. I often notice how few Thais actually post in the forums, and believe it or not, I came on Thailandfriends to hear from Thai people and learn about Thailand. From Thais, not farangs. All the back biting and chest thumping in the main forum probably puts off plenty of the women on this site from posting, while the "your English is sh*t, allow me to mock it" attitude of a few other members bullies a few others out. Perhaps I should "grow some" too, but I'd rather read a post from Deester, Dr Sassy et al, than some angry farang, or over-analytical pompous nob end.

Just my opinion of course.

deester, dr sassy, et al respond plenty......if my "don't be a f*cking baby!" attitude is hindering your ability to score chcks...well...you can blow me too......

as far as pompousness is concerned...I will let Rob respond to that

Sh*t!!!! Posted at 12:06am!!!!!!!!!!

Is that the time?

I'm teaching in the morning naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa........

Never mind.

This could get interesting.

voyeur!

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The one thing that native English speakers on TF never seem to grasp is that if it were not for the English skills of Thai members, this site probably would not exist.

It's all too easy to take cheap shots at the errors of non-native English speakers. And usually the cheap shots come from native English speakers who are too f*cking stupid to realize how poor their own English skills are.

I know of a few Thai TFers who won't write journals or post in forums because they are self-conscious about their English ability. That's too bad, because it would give them a chance to practice what they've learned. But who can blame them when their efforts are rewarded with ridicule from a boorish, half-literate farang?

To Thai people who struggle with English, don't worry too much about making mistakes. I can assure you that your English is far better than my Thai!

oh blow me! your constant verbal flatulence is a better option? good thing you're so damn full of yourself...otherwise I would have to say you're full sh*t. just because you spend all your time licking the boots of a few members you think you're entitled to sit in judgement. Don't like a little "unprovoked ridicule"?...grow a f*cking pair and then grow up. Members are all supposed to adults...right? And before you respond with another of your well thought out, grammatically correct, need a thesaurus to read blurbs of hot air...refer back to the first three words of this post.

FB2, I actually think the guy you are quoting made a decent point. I often notice how few Thais actually post in the forums, and believe it or not, I came on Thailandfriends to hear from Thai people and learn about Thailand. From Thais, not farangs. All the back biting and chest thumping in the main forum probably puts off plenty of the women on this site from posting, while the "your English is sh*t, allow me to mock it" attitude of a few other members bullies a few others out. Perhaps I should "grow some" too, but I'd rather read a post from Deester, Dr Sassy et al, than some angry farang, or over-analytical pompous nob end.

Just my opinion of course.

deester, dr sassy, et al respond plenty......if my "don't be a f*cking baby!" attitude is hindering your ability to score chcks...well...you can blow me too......

as far as pompousness is concerned...I will let Rob respond to that

I wasn't referring to you when I said pompous.

I know Deester & Dr Sassy post plenty, but they're in the minority when it comes to Thai women on this site. Add up how many people post in the forums and you'll find a male farang majority I'm sure.

I feel I structured my response to you in a thought-out manner. I made a point of explaining why I'd rather hear from more Thais, but you've jumped to a conclusion about it "hindering my ability to score chicks". That has nothing to do with it. I've met you in real life and know that you're as boorish in the flesh as you are online, but can I ask why? Why are you always shooting people down? And what's with all the "grow some" and "blow me" remarks all the time? Can't people have a conversation with you that doesn't mirror your opinions on everything without you feeling the need to stamp your feet and shout, retorting to the put-downs of a 13 year old American school girl?

Next time I bump into you, feel free to kick my ass. I know you could and probably would. It wouldn't change my first post though.

i believe my "blow me" comment shall suffice.....however, as far as real life v online life goes ....again..i digress.."blow me"...and for the "13 year old American school girl" comment...."blow me"..i'm canadian ya dumb ****!

and as far as having a conversation is concerneed...who asked you?...and ...yes...you guessed it..."blow me"

kicking your ass is neither of interest nor concern...so....."blow me"

note self: stop using "blow me"

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i believe my "blow me" comment shall suffice.....however, as far as real life v online life goes ....again..i digress.."blow me"...and for the "13 year old American school girl" comment...."blow me"..i'm canadian ya dumb sh*t!

and as far as having a conversation is concerneed...who asked you?...and ...yes...you guessed it..."blow me"

kicking your ass is neither of interest nor concern...so....."blow me"

note self: stop using "blow me"

How can I argue with such a well thought out response, hey? I know you're a Canadian, I used "American schoolgirl" because there's something distinctly Paris Hilton about resorting to name calling, "blow me" comments etc. If you started using "tard" a bit more, your average post would pretty much mirror those of some of the 15 year old Americans that clutter up message boards about rap music (trust me on that one).

As for the comment from the peanut gallery, refer to my reply to FB2 as to why I used "American".

puhleeeze... just sounds like some more anti-american booshit to me. whatever. you are entitled to your opinion. unlike you however, i judge people as individuals, not by nationality.

if you wanted to equate his rantings to Paris Hilton, you should have said that he was acting like a Paris Hilton, yet you chose to say "American school girl".

If you want to see how an average English school girl differs to an American, check out a character called Vicky Pollard on 'Little Britain'. That's a pretty accurate reflection of the state of England's youth at the moment. In comparison, their American counterparts are wordy geniuses and FB2 is Shakespeare

double "puhleeze". so maybe you get your impressions of American school girls from American TV as well?

to me you have shown a side of you i have no respect for.

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sh*t, I'd finally come across a topic about which I knew a thing or two, and we've drifted significantly.

OK, I think everybody has said their bit.

Can we get either

a) back on the topic of English Grammar / Education or

B) to sleep

I hereby declare the flaming war a tie. G'night all.

sorry Mike, i was right in the middle of that... my bad :oops:

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double "puhleeze". so maybe you get your impressions of American school girls from American TV as well?

to me you have shown a side of you i have no respect for.

And I live for your respect, obviously.

I guess I could resort to the tired, cliched "but I have plenty of American friends" defence. Or I could trawl through the old posts and find the thread where I distinctly remember coming to the defence of Americans, pointing out that George Bush's stupidity isn't a reflection of the people he lords it over. Or I could point you in the direction of the Borat thread where I got accused of a similar anti-American bias and defended my position. Or I could point out that I'd have to be a spectacular hypocrite to love hip-hop yet be anti America in my outlook.

But I won't.

Let's all jump to spectacular conclusions instead shall we. I'm here to score chicks and I hate America. Woopiedoo.

if u have been accused of it before then maybe there is some truth to it. i've said my piece. my opinion is formed. have a nice night. buh bye :wink:

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i

I've always been amazed that that people who want to learn the English language have to go through the ordeal of learning the grammar, why the frack is that I wonder :?: I never had to. :)

simple answer: biology.. members of the species Homo sapiens (that'd be us) are hard-wired with the ability to acquire grammar. once our brains are mature, they have been imprinted with the grammar(s) that we've learned, and learning new grammars is a) difficult and B) has to be done consciously. in other words, adults don't learn languages the same way they learned their mother tongue because they cannot..

that said, while i do think more emphasis on communication skills and less on rote memorization would be useful, *some* understanding of a language's grammar is necessary to communicate.

I've met many non-native speakers of English (a good few in Thailand) & in many cases their conversation skills are poor. :roll: Less emphasis on grammar & more on speaking is my prescription.

in many cases their grammar skills are poor too. and in many cases, they're taught english by people who don't really speak english (including thais who learned from other thais, or chinese who learned from other chinese, etc, and including a fair number of so-called "native speakers").

also conversation doesn't happen easily until you have a reasonable, 'real-world' vocabulary and enough basic grammar to hammer your words into intelligible sentences (that ain't much grammar, really). it's like learning guitar and suddenly your teacher wants you to improvise--can't really improvise until you a fair bit about music and how to make the sounds you want come out of the guitar.

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thai people with proper education seem to have better grammar but they find it very difficult to speak.

same reason it's harder for adults to learn: your mother tongue is 'burned into" your wiring. it ain't just grammer (sic) either. pronounciation comes effortlessly to children whose brains aint full of little connections yet, but hard to adults.

not to say adults cannot master a foreign tongue. joseph conrad was generally regarded as a very good writer. in english. big-L literature type stuff. conrad was polish. apparently his written english was immaculate yet he spoke with such a thick polish accent that his speech was nearly indecipherable.

it seems to me that, in tf, you can tell a lot from the way people write... i mean - their "background" ... especially, with farangs.

definitely but i think you can tell more about people from their ideas than their background. i've met 'street' types who were brilliant and immaculately educated types who couldn't think their way out of a paper bag. and ivy league graduates who swear like sailors, for all those morons who claim profanity is the crutch of the illiterate and/or inarticulate. what's interesting is to see how people think on their feet.

i have noticed that, little by little, some girls in tf seem to have developed their grammar - meaning : they are smart enough to learn to have their english improved and it proves that spending so much time on tf is not a total waste of time & oxygen afterall.

much of the grammar by native speakers on TF is putrid--the ones who know it are either sloppy or play around with it for the hell of it. it's still in many ways a good exercise--more like a slowed-down conversation, they have to interact and put things together. they have to form original sentences in order to communicate. no better way to learn than that, once you ahve the basics.

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i believe my "blow me" comment shall suffice.....however, as far as real life v online life goes ....again..i digress.."blow me"...and for the "13 year old American school girl" comment...."blow me"..i'm canadian ya dumb sh*t!

and as far as having a conversation is concerneed...who asked you?...and ...yes...you guessed it..."blow me"

kicking your ass is neither of interest nor concern...so....."blow me"

note self: stop using "blow me"

How can I argue with such a well thought out response, hey? I know you're a Canadian, I used "American schoolgirl" because there's something distinctly Paris Hilton about resorting to name calling, "blow me" comments etc. If you started using "tard" a bit more, your average post would pretty much mirror those of some of the 15 year old Americans that clutter up message boards about rap music (trust me on that one).

As for the comment from the peanut gallery, refer to my reply to FB2 as to why I used "American".

nevertheless...i'll stick with "blow me!"....

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in many cases their grammar skills are poor too. and in many cases, they're taught english by people who don't really speak english

it's like learning guitar and suddenly your teacher wants you to improvise--can't really improvise until you a fair bit about music and how to make the sounds you want come out of the guitar.

Any proficient teacher in some language can teach grammar, but the pronunciation part...that is most often more difficult in any country in their basic education.

And I think that just is natural: just isn't reasonable, possible (can't really have native speaker who doesn't speak Finnish teaching 3rd graders English :)) to acquire native English speakers to elementary schools. :)

So I personally got my first native English speaker teacher in the uni. So to get better pronunciation, most often it is gotten in Europe with Erasmus exhange, uni students as exhange students...For me, my pronunciation is definetly still Finnish, because I have not been in exhange or worked in English only workplace (that also demands really native English speakers, you really dont get clear speaking if all the co-workers are Germans or Indians or god forbid, French :-P) But in general, it would help a lot if the elementary school teachers had been immersed in the language (worked in foreign speaking language themselves) so they can that way give some idea of "better" speaking...But still many have not, so their speaking might not be what you eventually meet in "real life".

Your music metaphore is quite good: to improvise need "vocalbury", experiense, undersand what sounds good ("grammar", you can't just strike those cords as you like, doesn't sound nice,even if your skills, vocalbury, were huge) and so on...hmm, works pretty well :)

Oh and all this naturally goes to any foreing language, seems many have concentrated here on Asians speaking English, but goes without saying that similar challenges are common in any country, in any language region (in Finland kids have two compulsory foreign languages,one is always Swedish one is in many schools free to choose).

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in case some fuckwit wants to act as prosecutor and trot out the old "profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate" cliche:

ladies and gentlemen, exhibit A:

It's all too easy to take cheap shots at the errors of non-native English speakers. And usually the cheap shots come from native English speakers who are too f*cking stupid to realize how poor their own English skills are.

the defense rests.

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in case some fuckwit wants to act as prosecutor and trot out the old "profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate" cliche:

ladies and gentlemen, exhibit A:

It's all too easy to take cheap shots at the errors of non-native English speakers. And usually the cheap shots come from native English speakers who are too f*cking stupid to realize how poor their own English skills are.

the defense rests.

you forgot to sign that..."blow me"....

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in case some fuckwit wants to act as prosecutor and trot out the old "profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate" cliche:

ladies and gentlemen, exhibit A:

It's all too easy to take cheap shots at the errors of non-native English speakers. And usually the cheap shots come from native English speakers who are too f*cking stupid to realize how poor their own English skills are.

the defense rests.

you forgot to sign that..."blow me"....

i thought it was trademarked.

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Can't you ppl stop this nonsense stuff already on this thread? inamarato25 (I guess I didn't got it right) already posted that this kind of off topic stuff better stop by now...

More about language and grammar! :) PiAnt, you're a teacher, anything to give to the topic?

:roll: :roll: :(:(

i thought everyone knew by now that the only topic to ever stay ON topic (+ or - 4 posts) was the one about "tripods for camera dweebs." only reason that happened is most people don't give a **** about, or use, tripods.

english grammar, on the other hand---most people don't give a ****, but everyone here uses it (except for the occasional poet using babelfish).

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