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English Grammar


MichaelGray
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One thing doesn't have to exclude the other.

It is o.k for a Thai to learn Lao language without having to learn about the grammar things. But English structure of sentence is so different from Thai.

Firstly, Thai language doesn't have an aritcle before a noun.

Secondly, Thai language have only infinite verbs. Our Thai verb does not change according to the tense, the plurality and the singularity of noun.

Thirdly, Thai adjective is put behind the noun, and a Thai adverb is usually put after a verb only. But it seems like English can put adj. and adv. more freely. They exist everywhere in the sentence.

Forthly , The tenses in English are different from Thai.English have so many tenses which connote different meanings.How can English say : If I were you, I would shut up. I would like to be your friend. Or, I would have liked to be your friend. ( -''- perplexed)

But I agree that the study of English grammar is emphasized in our English class already. So, generally speaking, a native speaker can understand English writing of a Thai. It is not perfect, but it is comprehensible. However, methink it is not a good idea to stop teaching a structure of English to an adult learner. Many adult learners do not immerse into a new language like a child. Our brains somehow become dull when we grow older. And if you object, I challenge you to learn Thai without learning a Thai grammar.

Yes, I speak Thaiglish. Manytimes, the person who is not get used to Thaiglish doesn't understand me. I think it is because usually our Thai media likes to use English word. But sadly, the formal transcription of English into Thai is always distorted because the sound of vowels and consonants in English is different from Thai, but the media have to transcribe an English word by using the sounds that are available in Thai language. Additionally, the tonation in each word is ripped off. They thinks this is o.k., but the English native speakers usually does not get it. For example, the word Dove, which is a brand name of a soap and lotion, is transcribed as â´ê¿. Actually the vowel of 'o' in the word 'dove' is pronounced like 'u' in the word 'cup'.

(Can We sue Dove for misinforming us?)

We listen to the transcription of Enlgish words for many years, until we learn English in a fifth or a sixth grade. It is difficult to unlearn what you have learned. Sometimes, a teacher is not aware of the mistakes too. But even if she is aware of it, it is still difficult to correct it because you have to put so much effort to correct what is wrong to your fourty students.

And I have been conscious that my speaking is poor according to the Native english speakers's standard. But, formerly, I was too lazy to care about it.

I thought it was good enough to communicate anyway.But...Oh now I want to get a well-paid job. Now I wanna to Go-Inter!

So I find MichaelGray 's opinion a constructive criticism. But I am not going to leave the grammar thing behind because English ain't neither my fathertongue, nor my mothertongue, and I find it is difficult to use it right if I do not practice it often. That is why I like to go to TF.

<<Our brains somehow become dull when we grow older.>>

Oh, really? Where did you learn that?

My body may be weaker and getting wrinkled but my brain, nah, it still functions very well despite the massive killing of brain cells by Mr. Singha! lol

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i prefer the term: creatively acquired :wink:

in this case not a lot of creativity was involved. couldn't even be bothered to change words around so it couldn't be regoogled. i guess it counts as creative if one considers robbing one's own bank branch creative...

your thought process makes me highly concerned about my bank account :shock:

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During my uni days (back in the 19th century), one of my French professors used to admonish the slower students, "The reason you have so much trouble learning French is because you never learned English." .

Ditto. I struggled with French in high school in Canada 'cause I had no clue what the hell a transitive verb, a direct object, or anything else was. Then I went on a fairly intensive program in Italy and had to bite the bullet. I had to learn what this stuff all was in my mother tongue so I could get a grasp on it in Italian.

It was worth the time, since most of the grammar principles that exist in our own language overlap or are identical to concepts in other languages. I guess that's why they say that after learning your 2nd language, all the others are a cakewalk.

PS: Paint: Nice google catch!

Som Tam: Hilarious pic -- stooopid! :lol:

Duanja: Awesome English. If everybody could speak a second language as well as you do, there would be world peace, I'm sure!! 8)

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...in general, the teaching of grammar does not serve any practical purpose for most students (Hillocks and Smith 1991).

So, anyone read the whole context, what does this publication refer to, what situation exactly? Because this seems to be academic article (book?) which countermeasures for example inamaratos25's point of view about grammar.

[(edit: Indeed, academic is more proper word, not scientific. To be academically precise :) )

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Thai adjective is put behind the noun, and a Thai adverb is usually put after a verb only. But it seems like English can put adj. and adv. more freely. They exist everywhere in the sentence.

And if you object, I challenge you to learn Thai without learning a Thai grammar.

Hmm, and I have thought English and related European languages have been easy to learn when it comes to those darn adverbs. So easy to remember also their "order", learned those letterguides on so many thing at school. SPOTPA...Subject, Predicate (hmm, dont know if that is written right, means verb) , Tapa (WAY), Place, Aika (Time)...

Way, Place, Time, fixed order, easy. And then you can throw them in the front of the sentence if I want to emphasise these things. Still easy. SO someone tell me now hot these go in Thai grammar? Pls? Thanks. Khop khun khrap. (ok, should go to Learning Thai forum...:))

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It was worth the time, since most of the grammar principles that exist in our own language overlap or are identical to concepts in other languages.

to be more specific, while each language has its own grammar, all human brains are wired for a "deep structure" grammar. the deep structure of grammar is the same for all languages, and we're born with it. we acquire (rather than learn) specific grammar(s) during our early development.

for adults, generally, one needs to consciously learn grammar, it won't happen on its own anymore.

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...in general, the teaching of grammar does not serve any practical purpose for most students (Hillocks and Smith 1991).

So, anyone read the whole context, what does this publication refer to, what situation exactly? Because this seems to be scientific article (book?) which countermeasures for example inamaratos25's point of view about grammar.

given the citation it's obviously an academic article, but don't let's jump to the conclusion that it's scientific.

plant? where's it from?

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...in general, the teaching of grammar does not serve any practical purpose for most students (Hillocks and Smith 1991).

So, anyone read the whole context, what does this publication refer to, what situation exactly? Because this seems to be scientific article (book?) which countermeasures for example inamaratos25's point of view about grammar.

I haven't read the book, but it seems to be talking about grammar rules for native speakers -- that learning grammar won't make a better writer etc, or help them learn a foreign language. That grammar won't necessarily help an English native speaker become a great writer in English, I can believe. That it won't help them learn a foreign language? That I do not agree with. But if you look at the quote:

nor does the teaching of English grammar necessarily make it easier for students to learn the structure of a foreign language (indeed, many students who have studied English grammar consciously learn the structure of English for the first time when studying a foreign language).

I think this only applies to the second language, which is where, as the quote says, people tend to come to terms with what grammar really is. Indeed, I doubt there are any studies of first-language grammar experts who are then challenged to learn a second language. So the quote above has an essential logical flaw: If you don't know your own grammar system before trying a second language, of course it can't help. But once you know it -- and try other languages, I think that's a different story. I think it does help.

A google search of "focus on form" should provide an extensive list of research / resources that support the role of grammar instruction in EFL/ ESL. And I'd be happy to buy you beers all night when I'm in town if you can find any significant evidence to the contrary ;)

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And I'd be happy to buy you beers all night when I'm in town if you can find any significant evidence to the contrary ;)

Once again some poor fellow is going to pay for all night rounds. It ain't cheap to get this fellow drunk and under the table you know. I am hitting the google now, maybe I get good "hourly salary" if I find the right stuff...heheheh

scholar.google.com

Oh and be prepared with thich wallet: I will accept only imported beer like Guinness etc. I don't count Heineken as beer.

*joking*

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Interest & motivation will only take a person so far... without intelligence I don't think people can achieve very much. :)

Well, then that is not very intelligent of you to say. I would rather have a higher intelligence quota than not; no question. But intelligence (or talent as it were) by itself is no match for persistence. The world abounds with talented and intelligent failures that never put their ideas into action. Just putting your ideas into action isn't enough either. You must press on through thick and thin and especially when others tell you, "you can't do it; give up." I would rather have a motivated (persistent) employee of average intelligence who wants/needs to make money (or "succeed" however that is defined) than a disinterested, high IQ employee. Read Napolean Hill's Think & Grow Rich written in the early 1930's to understand the distinction between the two.

So as it applies here, unless someone has a mental disability, learning a new language will come to those who decide, no matter what, they will learn that language. They will do whatever it takes to learn it; regardless of obstacles. And yes, the "more intelligent" person with the same relentless effort will pick it up faster, but it is the relentless effort which counts most.

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Interest & motivation will only take a person so far... without intelligence I don't think people can achieve very much. :)

Well, then that is not very intelligent of you to say. I would rather have a higher intelligence quota than not; no question. But intelligence (or talent as it were) by itself is no match for persistence. The world abounds with talented and intelligent failures that never put their ideas into action. Just putting your ideas into action isn't enough either. You must press on through thick and thin and especially when others tell you, "you can't do it; give up." I would rather have a motivated (persistent) employee of average intelligence who wants/needs to make money (or "succeed" however that is defined) than a disinterested, high IQ employee. Read Napolean Hill's Think & Grow Rich written in the early 1930's to understand the distinction between the two.

So as it applies here, unless someone has a mental disability, learning a new language will come to those who decide, no matter what, they will learn that language. They will do whatever it takes to learn it; regardless of obstacles. And yes, the "more intelligent" person with the same relentless effort will pick it up faster, but it is the relentless effort which counts most.

Is this really happening, I actually agree with you ... lol

What's this gotta do with Engrish Grammer? :D

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So as it applies here, unless someone has a mental disability, learning a new language will come to those who decide, no matter what, they will learn that language. They will do whatever it takes to learn it; regardless of obstacles.

Hmm,that's a slightly unfortunate example coming from a citizen of the most illiterate country in the Western world.Yet,for sure,flogging worthless junk bonds probably does take more perseverance than intelligence.Well that's what Michael Milkin said.

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So as it applies here, unless someone has a mental disability, learning a new language will come to those who decide, no matter what, they will learn that language. They will do whatever it takes to learn it; regardless of obstacles.

Hmm,that's a slightly unfortunate example coming from a citizen of the most illiterate country in the Western world.Yet,for sure,flogging worthless junk bonds probably does take more perseverance than intelligence.Well that's what Michael Milkin said.

The voice(s) of ignorance resonate again.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 11 months later...
my English so poor and totally SUCKS

my dad speak Italian my mom speak Chinese but they can speak English better than me but many native speakers of English says that's SUCKs...

but i still so proud of my native language same as ur proud of ur English 8)

My english grammar is good but just wanna fix ur english

it should be my dad speaks Italian my mom speaks Chinese, isnt it?

Shouldn't it?

Sorry, can't resist seeing as we're all on a nit-picking spree here.

Mai roo :lol: thts why i ask isnt it?

YOU mean 'mai roo, thats why I asked....didn't I?'

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my English so poor and totally SUCKS

my dad speak Italian my mom speak Chinese but they can speak English better than me but many native speakers of English says that's SUCKs...

but i still so proud of my native language same as ur proud of ur English 8)

My english grammar is good but just wanna fix ur english

it should be my dad speaks Italian my mom speaks Chinese, isnt it?

Shouldn't it?

Sorry, can't resist seeing as we're all on a nit-picking spree here.

Mai roo :lol: thts why i ask isnt it?

YOU mean 'mai roo, thats why I asked....didn't I?'

are you sure? i mean, doesn't the isn't it refer to the reason (that's) not the asker (i)? it's a given that the asker asked.... as long as nits are being picked (oh dear that was passive voice MS word will be gunning for me ).

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  • 4 months later...

I think both english and thai rammar aren't all that complicated. Don't get me wrong, it's not like I know everything but believe me when I say dutch & german grammar is more complicated, look at verbs for example. small examples on how they're put

english:

I go ? you go - we go

Thai

phom pai - khoon pai - rao pai

Dutch

ik ga - jij gaat - wij gaan

German

ich gehe - du gehtst - wir gehen

and that's just verbs, and then you have your past tense which you don't even need in thai, you just put in a word to indicate when it happened, so english and thai are blessed, believe me. Which one is more difficult according to me?, I don't know because I just started out with thai, I'll get back on that

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