ÃÙéÇÔ¸Õ�èÒ¹¤íÒÊ�Ò¸Ôʹ¸Ô

[RoobLaw]

ÃÙéÇÔ¸ÕÃèÒ¹¤íÒÊÃÒ¸Ôʹ¸Ô

( á¡éä¢ä´é¹Ã¤ÃѺ )

àÇÅÒ¼ÃÃÕ¤íÒÈѾ·ìãËÃè ¼ÃÃÂÒ¡¤¹ä·ÂÃÙéÇÔ¸ÔÃèÒ¹ãËé¼à ºÒ§¤ÃѧªÒǵèÒ§ªÒµÔÃÕ

¤ÇÒÃÂÒ¡ÊíÒºÒ¡à¡ÕèÂǡѺ¡ÒÃÃáàÊÕ§ â´Â੾ÒäíÒÊÃÒ¸Ôʹ¸Ô àªè¹

¤íÒÈѾ·ì - - - - - - - ÃÙéÇÔ¸ÕÃèÒ¹

¼ÅäÃé - - - - - - - ¼¹-Ã…Ã-ÃéÒÂ

¡Ô¨¡Òà - - - - - - - ¡Ô´-¨Ã-¡Ò¹

ÃÑ°ºÒÅ - - - - - - - ÃÑ´-·Ã-ºÒ¹

Ê¡»Ã¡ - - - - - - - Ê¡-¡Ã-»Ã¡

¨ÑµÇÒ - - - - - - - ¨Ñ´-·Ã-ÇÒ

ÈÒʹÒ - - - - - - - ÊÒ´-ÊÃ-¹Ò

à᪹ - - - - - - - àá-¡Ã-ª¹

ÃѸÂà - - - - - - - ÃÃ-·Ã-ÂÃ

ÊØ¢ÀÒ¾ - - - - - - - ÊØ¡-¡Ã-¼éÒº ( à¾ÃÒÃÇèÒ àÊէⷠ)

ÃѰùµÃÕ - - - - - - - ÃÑ´-·Ã-ù-µÃÕ

»ÃøҹҸԺ´Õ - - - - - - - »ÃÃ-·Ò-¹Ò-·Ôº-ºÃ-´Õ

¹Ò¡à·ÈùµÃÕ - - - - - - - ¹Ò-¡-à·´-ÊÃ-ù-µÃÕ

Please correct the second column for me as I need to practice this format and what consonants to use.

In the future, if I request assistance with pronounciation, is the following sentence written correctly?

¢ÃãËéÃÙéÇÔ¸ÕÃèÒ¹ " ÃÑ°ºÒÅ " ˹èäÃѺ

If not, how do I ask (in Thai)?

[RoobLaw]

Thank you Sweet_Honey and yellowsubmarine

Actually, the intent of the question is more geared towards either this forum or specifically asking someone to write out the word, with both the correct spelling and with the hyphonated text thereafter.

For example:

¨ÑµÇÒ = ¨Ñ´ - µà - ÇÒ

When I'm out and about, and a new word comes up, I need to know how it's spelled. Because I'm an expert with ¤íÒà»ç¹ áÅà ¤íÒµÒ , ¡®ÃÑ¡ÉÃÊÙ§ ¡®ÃÑ¡ÉõíҡѺÊÃÃàÊÕ§ÊÑé¹áÅÃÊÃÃàÊÕ§ÂÒÇ etc., I know how to derive the tones (pretty much the grammar rules you all learned in elementary and middle school, but probably forgot by now).

My professors have told me that the rules apply to about 80% of Thai words. However, they apply to over 95% of the words that I know, and when there's an exception to the rule, the memorization comes naturally with repitition. Eventually I will post the basic rules here as I'm also working on a soon-to-be website of my various tips and experiences.

In response to an email from a Chula friend, I received the following corrections/modifications:

ÃÙéÇÔ¸ÕÃèÒ¹¤íÒÊÃÒ¸Ôʹ¸Ô should be ÇÔ¸Õ¡ÒÃÃèÒ¹¤ÓÊÃÒ¸Ô¤Óʹ¸Ô

¼ÃÃÂÒ¡¤¹ä·ÂÃÙé should be ¼ÃÃÂÒ¡ãË餹ä·ÂÊù

à¡ÕèÂǡѺ should use (ã¹)

Column entitled ÃÙéÇÔ¸ÕÃèÒ¹ should be ¤ÓÃèÒ¹

¼ÅäÃé = ¼¹ - Ã…Ã - äÃé

¨ÑµÇÒ = ¨Ñ´ - µà - ÇÒ

ÈÒÊ¹Ò = ÊÒ´ - Êà - ˹Ò

ÃѸÂà = ÃÑ´ - ·à - ÂÃ

ÊØ¢ÀÒ¾ = ÊØ¡ - ¢à - ¾Òº

Finally, the question

¢ÃãËéÃÙéÇÔ¸ÕÃèÒ¹ " ÃÑ°ºÒÅ " ˹èäÃѺ

should be

ªèÇÂÊùÇÔ¸Õ¡ÒÃÃèÒ¹¤ÓÇèÒ "..." ˹èäÃѺ

[RoobLaw]

ÃÑ´-·Ã-ºÒ¹

äÃèãªè âç¾ÂÒºÒŹÕéà»ç¹à᪹

[duanja]

Formally speaking is ÃÑ´-¶Ã-ºÒ¹

But then Thai speaking language evolves a bit.

People become more lazy, so now ÃÑ´-·Ã-ºÒ¹ is more widespread.

In the same way, ÃѰùµÃÕ is pronounced as ÃÑ´-¶Ã-ù-µÃÕ. It is like we don't like to pronounce the sound Ã, but prefer pronouncing Ã… instead. We understand the different meaning between ÃÑ¡ (love) and ÅÑ¡ (stole) from the contexts. Methink, Thais are very intuitive.

And you shouldn't translate the phrase of English to Thai verb in a direct way.

Like translating,'' Let me know how to'' to ¢ÃãËéÃÙéÇÔ¸Õ·Õè¨Ã.

However, as Thais are intuitive listener, we do understand what you mean.

It is not what people talk our ordinary day life. But I think it can be used in special context : ¢ÃãËé¼ÃÃÙéÇÔ¸Õ·Õè¨ÃÃÑ¡¤Ø³ (a tip for TFers)

Actually I made a lot of mistakes by trying to translate our Thai phrases into English because I think in Thai first, and I found out that it sounded a bit strange.

[RoobLaw]

Formally speaking is ÃÑ´-¶Ã-ºÒ¹

People become more lazy, so now ÃÑ´-·Ã-ºÒ¹ is more widespread.

In the same way, ÃѰùµÃÕ is pronounced as ÃÑ´-¶Ã-ù-µÃÕ.

What's the difference between using ·à versus ¶à ?

The Thai Language has 44 consonants, but only 21 consonant sounds. It's my understanding that both · ·ËÒà and ¶ ¶Ø§ are not only both áÉÑõíÒ (Low-Class consonants), but both have the same sound.

It's also been my understanding that for the purpose of ÇÔ¸Õ¡ÒÃÃèÒ¹¤Ó , that · ·ËÒà , not ¶ ¶Ø§ is used. At least I've never seen ¶ ¶Ø§ used in any of my classes or text books.

Anyway, I've always been using · ·ËÒà . Since this method is not about actual spelling of the word. I've always assumed that ÇÔ¸Õ¡ÒÃÃèÒ¹¤Ó is simply a method developed for young Thai children in elementary school, as well as middle and high school, when learning how to pronounce complex new Thai vocabulary words.

It just seems to me that for sound/pronounciation purposes, the consonants used are set to a minimum and a set standard is usually used. Of course, I'm not an expert in this, but I'm still curious to know how using ·à versus ¶à makes one more appropriate over the other.

[duanja]

What's the difference between using ·à versus ¶à ?.

Perhaps you don't know the family (° ¶) and (¸ ·) The consonants in the same bracket are pronounced in the same way. But, only the coloured are chosen to represented the sound in the system of ÇÔ¸Õ¡ÒÃÃèÒ¹¤Ó.

Both the spelling and the pronunciation of (° ¶) and (¸ ·) are different. I can't tell exactly how more than that the position of a tongue is different when the sound is being produced.If you wanna know how it sound like. Prounouce the word COMPUTER by omissing the R sound. Don't roll you tongue backwards as usual, but put it down in its place. The TE ® is similiar to ¶, *in my opinion*. But that is just a touch of ¶ ¶Ø§. It is not the exactly the same, *in my opinion*.

You should buy the book. I believe it is good for you, but I never read it myself. http://www.amazon.com/Improving-Pronunciation-Benjamin-Poomsan-Becker/dp/1887521267

It's also been my understanding that for the purpose of ÇÔ¸Õ¡ÒÃÃèÒ¹¤Ó , that · ·ËÒà , not ¶ ¶Ø§ is used. At least I've never seen ¶ ¶Ø§ used in any of my classes or text books.

Your teacher is a little bit tricky. I wonder if they omit (¢ Vs. ¤), and (Ê Vs. «) too?

Anyway, I've always been using · ·ËÒà . Since this method is not about actual spelling of the word. I've always assumed that ÇÔ¸Õ¡ÒÃÃèÒ¹¤Ó is simply a method developed for young Thai children in elementary school, as well as middle and high school, when learning how to pronounce complex new Thai vocabulary words..

Oh..you don't know that royal elites like to use unfamiliar and difficult words borrowing from Khmer, Sanskrit, Pali. It is important for Thai not to forget this.

So Thai's pronunciation (ÇÔ¸Õ¡ÒÃÃèÒ¹¤Ó) is also taught at University at least in the first year. For example,it is important to pronounce à©ÅÔþÃê¹Ã¾ÃÃÉÒ right, otherwise it is a disaster. But as we hear it everyday in the new, it is not that difficult. But the spelling is more difficult.

In this case, it is o.k. to pronounce ° like ·. When ° is used as a final consonats like ÃÑ° (a state) it is pronounce as ÃÑ´, and some people like pronouce as ÃÑ´-¶Ã. When this word ÃÑ° is combined with other words, say, »ÃÃËÒà ( killing), often the middle consonant ¶Ã--->·à coz it is easy this way. For example, ÃÑ°»ÃÃËÒà (killing of a state) = ÃÑ´-¶Ã/·Ã-»ÃÃ-ËÒ¹

It just seems to me that for sound/pronounciation purposes, the consonants used are set to a minimum and a set standard is usually used.

Sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say here. But I can assure you that the sound is distinguished from ·. Usually our ¶ is used as a first consonant, such as, ¶Ö§ (to, even though) ¶éÒ(if). When our ¶ appear in the final consonants, then it is pronounced as ´ ,such as, a car ö = ô.

[RoobLaw]

From an older post:

¤³à (¤Ã-¹Ã) n. a group, a gang, a party; a faculty, department, school or college in a university

ÃÑ¡Éà (ÃÑ¡-Êù) n. the alphabet; a written character; a letter, including the vowels

ÈÒʵÃì (ÊÒ´) n. a science

ÃÑ¡ÉÃÈÒʵÃì (ÃÑ¡-ÊÃ-ÃÃ-ÊÒ´) n.literature

¤³ÃÃÑ¡ÉÃÈÒʵÃì (¤Ã-¹Ã-ÃÑ¡-ÊÃ-ÃÃ-ÊÒ´) = 6 syllables

*source: Thaisoft So Sethaputra Dictionary 2.0

Question

Is there a special dictionary that does ÇÔ¸Õ¡ÒÃÃèÒ¹¤Ó , or list both the Thai word, as written, and the phonetic pronounciation in the format of the initial post of this thread? Or, the way yellowsubmarine listed the word hyphonated above?

If such a dictionary does exist, I think that would be extremely helpful in depicting how a word should be spoken, especially when it comes double functions.

Or, does such a Thai dictionary exist whereby the meanings and translation would not be inlcuded? I wonder if there's a resource in print that simply list the word as written and again in hyphonanted form, similar to the two-column format I started in my original post.

Many of the English-to-Thai dictionaries tend to spell out the English pronouciation (using Thai characters) informing the Thai reader how it's to be pronounced in English, but what I'm looking for is a resourse whereby the word is written in Thai, and the pronounciation is also used in Thai. In fact, it would be optimal if such a book had Thai characters exclusively.

I wonder if such a resource exists for elementary Thai students when being introduced to big words?

When Thai students are in elementary school or above, do teachers commonly use this method to depict pronouciation?

[RoobLaw]

What's the difference between using ·à versus ¶à ?.

Perhaps you don't know the family (° ¶) and (¸ ·) The consonants in the same bracket are pronounced in the same way. But, only the coloured are chosen to represented the sound in the system of ÇÔ¸Õ¡ÒÃÃèÒ¹¤Ó.

Both the spelling and the pronunciation of (° ¶) and (¸ ·) are different.

duanja,

ôÑÃà¢éÒã¨áÅéÇ

㹤׹Çѹ¹Õé ¼Ãä»ÃéÒ¹ÃÒËÒÃä·Â·Õè«Ò¹¿ÃÒ¹«ÔÊâ¡ ºÃÔ¡ÃË­Ôª×éôÒÇà»é¹à¾×èù¼à ôéöÒôÒÇ

ÃÑ°ºÒÅ = ÃÑ´ - ¶à - ºÒ¹

ÃѸÂà = ÃÑ´ - ·à - ÂÃ

àÇÅÒ " ° " ãªè " ¶ "

àÇÅÒ " ¸ " ãªè " · "

ôÑöÒôÒÇ àÊÕ§¾ÂÑ­ª¹à " · " áÅà àÊÕ§¾ÂÑ­ª¹à " ¶ " àÊÕ§àÃ×èù¡Ñ¹ãªèäËäÃѺ

´ÒǵúÇèÒ

" äÃèãªè¤èà "

¼Ã¶ÒÃÇèÒ ᵡµèÒ§Âѧ䧤ÃѺ

´ÒǵúÇèÒ

àÇÅÒ¾Ù´ " ¶ " àÊÕ§˹ѡ¡ÇèÒ " · "

So, the same applies with " ° " and " ¸ "

´ÒÇøԺÒÂà¡è§

[RoobLaw]

I wonder if they omit (¢ Vs. ¤), and (Ê Vs. «) too?

The differences here are more straightforward as

¢ ä¢è à»ç¹ÃÑ¡ÉÃÊÙ§ áµè ¤ ¤ÇÒ à»ç¹ÃÑ¡ÉõíÒ

Ê àÊ×à à»ç¹ÃÑ¡ÉÃÊÙ§ áµè « â«è à»ç¹ÃÑ¡ÉõíÒ

Also, I haven't had enough experience seeing this in the classroom and they are rarely spelled out like this. The only time a teacher might use this hyphonated method is when a student is having difficulty pronoucing the word. So, in my experience, it was rarely applied in my classes. I decided to start this thread as sometimes when reading Thai, I'm not quite sure how it's pronouced until I either hear it spoken once, or someone writes out the hyphonation.

I'm sure the teachers know · vs. ¶ , it was me that was not familiar with the difference in usage, until now.

¢Ãº¤Ø³¤ÃѺ

[chrispilok]

I wonder if they omit (¢ Vs. ¤), and (Ê Vs. «) too?

The differences here are more straightforward as

¢ ä¢è à»ç¹ÃÑ¡ÉÃÊÙ§ áµè ¤ ¤ÇÒ à»ç¹ÃÑ¡ÉõíÒ

Ê àÊ×à à»ç¹ÃÑ¡ÉÃÊÙ§ áµè « â«è à»ç¹ÃÑ¡ÉõíÒ

Also, I haven't had enough experience seeing this in the classroom and they are rarely spelled out like this. The only time a teacher might use this hyphonated method is when a student is having difficulty pronoucing the word. So, in my experience, it was rarely applied in my classes. I decided to start this thread as sometimes when reading Thai, I'm not quite sure how it's pronouced until I either hear it spoken once, or someone writes out the hyphonation.

I'm sure the teachers know · vs. ¶ , it was me that was not familiar with the difference in usage, until now.

¢Ãº¤Ø³¤ÃѺ

Good thread Adam

Your friend's explanation was:

àÇÅÒ¾Ù´ " ¶ " àÊÕ§˹ѡ¡ÇèÒ " · "

Could you explain what she means?

Thanks.

Chris

[RoobLaw]

àÇÅÒ¾Ù´ " ¶ " àÊÕ§˹ѡ¡ÇèÒ " · "

Could you explain what she means?

ÊÇÑÊ´Õ¤ÃѺ¤Ø³ Chris

˹ѡ means heavy, ¡ÇèÒ means more, so more heavy.

However, I just realized something I should have realized immediately.

° is a high-class consonant - à»ç¹ÃÑ¡ÉÃÊÙ§

¸ is a mid-class consonant - à»ç¹ÃÑ¡ÉõíÒ

So, that alone is the correspondance to ¶ and · respectively.

Also, my friend ÃŽÃ’Ã just informed me, in response to the above post, the following:

¨ÃÔ§æ áÅéÇ à˵ؼŷÕèá·é¨ÃÔ§ ÃÂÙèµÃ§·ÕèÇèÒ "¶" áÅà "·" à»ç¹ÃÑ¡Éä¹ÅáÅØèáѹ

"¶" à»ç¹ÃÑ¡ÉÃÊÙ§ Êèǹ "·" à»ç¹ÃÑ¡ÉõèÓ

¨Ö§·ÓãËé¡ÒÃÃáàÊÕ§ᵡµèÒ§¡Ñ¹

[Fat_Tony]

¸ is a mid-class consonant - à»ç¹ÃÑ¡ÉõíÒ

Mid-class is ÃÑ¡ÉáÅÒ§äÃèãªèÃÑ¡ÉõèÓ

¸ is low class

[RoobLaw]

¸ is low class

¤Ø³ Tony á¡éä¢áÅéÇ

[Fat_Tony]

Ive done up a little guide for you, hopefully it might be of some help

Its important to stick to the original tone when splitting up words, use the basic letters from each group, for example

For Initial Consonants

¤ is used for ¤ and ¦

ª is used for ª and ¬

´ is used for ´ and ®

µ is used for µ and ¯

¶ is used for ¶ and °

· is used for ·,±,² and ¸

¹ is used for ¹ and ³

¾ is used for ¾ and À

 is used for  and ­

Å is used for Å and Ì

Ê is used for Ê,È and É

For Final Consonants of each syllable

¡ is used for ¡,¢,¤ and ¦

´ is used for ´,µ,¨,ª,«,·,¸,±,²,¶,°,Ê,È,É,® and ¯

¹ is used for ¹,³,Ã,Å,Ì and ­

º is used for º,»,¾,¿ and À

Example,

¼ÅÔµÀѳ±ì ? ¼Ã-ËÅÔ´-µÃ-¾Ñ¹ (Note the use of Ë here)

ÊúÙóҭÒÊÔ·¸ÔÃÒª ? ÊÃ-ºÙ-ÃÃ-¹Ò-ÂÒ-ÊÔ´-·Ô-ÃÒ´

»ÃêҸԻäµÂ ? »ÃÃ-ªÒ-·Ô-»Ã-äµ

ÃÑ°¸ÃÃù٭ ? ÃÑ´-¶Ã-·Ó-ÃÃ-¹Ù¹

ʶҺѹÃÒªÀѯ ? ÊÃ-¶Ò-ºÑ¹-ÃÒ´-ªÃ-¾Ñ´

[RoobLaw]

I'd like to propose that this thread be used for pronouciation assistance.

Anytime someone has a question on how to pronounce a word, come to this thread.

ªèÇÂÊùÇÔ¸Õ¡ÒÃÃèÒ¹¤ÓÇèÒ " ÈÕÃÉà " ˹èäÃѺ

ÈÕÃÉà = ?

[condotown]

Language is for communication.

Perfect pronunciation is not important for communication.

Adam, you will always have your silly ass farang accent even if you pronounce the Thai words perfectly in your anally retentive brain.... (said in a respectful tone)

You are not a native Thai speaker and never will be.

I still love you.

(Could someone please translate that to Thai for the amusement of the majority of female readers of these forums?)

[RoobLaw]

ÈÕÃÉà = ÊÕ-ÊÃ

Interesting.

So à is silent here.

[RoobLaw]

I found an interesting source compiling a list of "Difficult to Pronouce Words" used by schools for teaching young Thai students.

I've temporarily copied, and published, about one-eigth of the list here to present a sample for demonstration purposes (it's not clear to me if this is copyrighted material).

http://docs.google.com/View?docid=ddxngbsh_23g42kkp

"On the left are the words. On the right is the pronunciation guide. This is how Thai students do spelling tests at school."

I am still looking for a book, or dictionary, that has the Thai words on the left and ¤íÒÃèÒ¹ on the right, if one does exist.

However, the resource above has hundreds of words that are difficult for young Thai students to pronouce.

I'm in the process of compiling the list, putting them into PDF format, and printing them out. This may be a valuable document for practicing to write and memorize all the words and be a good excercise.

When I get a chance to PDF this, or compile the entire list in HTML format, I'll be happy to share.

[chrispilok]

Looks like a good resource Adam.

Thanks for posting the link.

[Zleepy]

When our ¶ appear in the final consonants, then it is pronounced as ´ ,such as, a car ö = ô.

no.. it's the other way around.. reverse your rule

[RoobLaw]

Thank you very much for that recommendation.

I'll probably pick one up next time I'm at CU.

[RoobLaw]

i recommend these two books.

¾¨¹Ò¹Ø¡Ãà ©ºÑºÃÒªºÑ³±ÔµÂʶҹ

(dictionary)

ÃèÒ¹ÃÂèÒ§äà áÅÃà¢Õ¹ÃÂèÒ§äà ©ºÑºÃÒªºÑ³±ÔµÂʶҹ

(how to read and how to write)

they are available in CU. bookshop and other leading bookshops in bangkok.

http://www.chulabook.com/cgi-bin/main/2003/description.asp?barcode=9789749588048

Cateinbkk

Thank you so much for the recommendation on the book entitled:

ÃèÒ¹ÃÂèÒ§äÃ

áÅÃ

à¢Õ¹ÃÂèÒ§äÃ

©ºÑºÃÒªºÑ³±ÔµÂʶҹ

I bought one for 18 baht at CU it's wonderful. I highly recommended it as well.

The dictionary, on the other hand, is a bit large for me at the moment. I'm going to stick with Se-Ed for the time being. Although, 480 Baht is a great price at CU. However, that doesn't include the extra baggage surcharge as this book weighs well over 100 kilograms.