Zombiedriven Posted December 17, 2006 Report Share Posted December 17, 2006 This has probably been smashed up and thrown away many fold. I work abroad and I come back to Thailand during my breaks but that is not enough time for a tutor. By that I mean 4-6months of solid work then just 16 days off. And what makes it worst is when I start picking up the little lines I forget them due to the other languages being shouted at me so if any one has a good suggistion I am pretty much willing to listen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duanja Posted December 17, 2006 Report Share Posted December 17, 2006 I don't know la ka. I was taught to speak Thai by my mamma and pappa, and I learn how to write, and those grammar things at school. I could offer me tutor you coz I favor a pretty guy, but now I can't skype as my hardware relating with the microphone doesn't work. :cry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duanja Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Wasabi, don't you have a tutor already ? It is better to tutor one by one, face to face, and cheek to cheek... I am no swinging na. :wink: Seriously, to answer our Zombiedriven question.First, you've got to know the goal. Do you want to learn Thai for tourism, or you wanna speak like Thai native? If you are tourist, don't need to learn Thai alphabets. Just buy a phrasebook with Cds. It is convenient.The shortcoming of this mothod is that it does not represent actual Thai pronunciation. If you wanna be more serious, I think you should begin by studying how thai alphabets and vowesl are written, and you should learn to pronounce it at the same time. Just buy a book with cds like Wasabi did. You should record your voice when you pronounce these sounds too, and then give it to your tutor who can check it. You can also practice pronouncing by singing a Thai karaoke, and don't forget to save it too. With the ability to spell Thai words, you can use a Dictionary when you encounter new words. I think pronunciation comes first, because the distinction of Thai language is its system of tonation. If you begin with the emphasis of structuret, you are at risk at getting trapped by the English transcription of Thai sounds. After you know how to spell and pronounce Thai, you should study the structure of Thai language which is easier. The common structure of Thai is Subject+ Verb+ Object. And adjective comes after noun, such as, book red, but if you reverse it, it is no big deal. Thai people still understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombiedriven Posted December 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Wasabi, don't you have a tutor already ?It is better to tutor one by one, face to face, and cheek to cheek... I am no swinging na. :wink: Seriously, to answer our Zombiedriven question.First, you've got to know the goal. Do you want to learn Thai for tourism, or you wanna speak like Thai native? If you are tourist, don't need to learn Thai alphabets. Just buy a phrasebook with Cds. It is convenient.The shortcoming of this mothod is that it does not represent actual Thai pronunciation. If you wanna be more serious, I think you should begin by studying how thai alphabets and vowesl are written, and you should learn to pronounce it at the same time. Just buy a book with cds like Wasabi did. You should record your voice when you pronounce these sounds too, and then give it to your tutor who can check it. You can also practice pronouncing by singing a Thai karaoke, and don't forget to save it too. With the ability to spell Thai words, you can use a Dictionary when you encounter new words. I think pronunciation comes first, because the distinction of Thai language is its system of tonation. If you begin with the emphasis of structuret, you are at risk at getting trapped by the English transcription of Thai sounds. After you know how to spell and pronounce Thai, you should study the structure of Thai language which is easier. The common structure of Thai is Subject+ Verb+ Object. And adjective comes after noun, such as, book red, but if you reverse it, it is no big deal. Thai people still understand. That helped in a way and yea it is for to live there I first lived in Laos for 6 months building radio towers but forgot what I needed to know when I left and it just went blank thanks for some of the info if any more ideas just keep posting thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duanja Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Great. Thai and Lao have nearly a comparable aphabets. Thai's system of tonation is the same as Lao's. I can decode Lao's writing without having been educated coz I am an isaan girl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsnow Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Wasabi, don't you have a tutor already ?It is better to tutor one by one, face to face, and cheek to cheek... I am no swinging na. :wink: What about meeee? tutor? seriously: hmm, you favor for learning the alphabets then? but whatabout the obstacles for a new learner when it comes to all the "special cases" related to the letters and how they are pronounced and how the tonals are marked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombiedriven Posted December 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 I had some problems with the special cases when I was learning TEX-MEX (mixture of Mexican Spanish and Texas slang) it doesn't really have a alphabet but you had to know how to read in both languages to grasp the point it is kinda jumbled together and aslo Southern Creol or Cajun or Cunass what be the topic is the same name . I just learned eveything the "hard way" being thrown into it and expected to learn it or be a outcast. So I am kinda figureing that is how it is going to be in my case with Thai but with the Lao book it should be a little more easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duanja Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 Wasabi, don't you have a tutor already ?It is better to tutor one by one, face to face, and cheek to cheek... I am no swinging na. :wink: What about meeee? tutor? O....It is the duty, my Sunsnow-knight in the shinning armour, to back up our alliances of the goods heading to slay down the devil Dragon. Anyway, as I am a Thai native-speaker, I might not know what is the difficulties of learning Thai better than foreigners. And each nationals faces different difficulties when they try to speak Thai. The best I could suggest is a mantra : Warrior, remember that the written text does not always represent the actual voices of Thai. Thai alphabets have 21 basic Sounds, but the characters displaying at the battlefield are 44, even more than twice of the real sounds. Yes, the Dragon wants to impress us that they have more supporters. But we must not be lure. These 21 basic sounds are grouped into 3 tonal levels. Middle : ¡, ¨, ´, µ, º, », à High : ¤, ª, ·,¾, ¿, «, ÃŽ Low : §, ¹, Ã, Â, Ã, Ã…, Ç Yoo should tackle each group first. Begin by the Middle because the middle does not deceive. Just be careful with ¡, some people transcript it as /k/ which might mislead you to pronouce it as /k/ in kin (English). But its sound is more like /g/ in Grammar. You might also find it difficult to pronounce µ, as I heard many pronounce like it is T. It is more pronounced like T in STOCKHOLM, STUDENT. But it is unlike T in TOY. it is time to take a rest...***Merry Christmas** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsnow Posted December 22, 2006 Report Share Posted December 22, 2006 What about meeee? O....It is the duty, my Sunsnow-knight in the shinning armour, to back up our alliances of the goods heading to slay down the devil Dragon. ---cut--- You might also find it difficult to pronounce µ, as I heard many pronounce like it is T. It is more pronounced like T in STOCKHOLM, STUDENT. But it is unlike T in TOY. Thank you so much. Kiitoksia paljon! Khop khun mak! That was very nice post! Good night, rest and season greetings to the Warrior Princess! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duanja Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 The best I could suggest is a mantra : Warrior, remember that the written text does not always represent the actual voices of Thai. Thai alphabets have 21 basic Sounds, but the characters displaying at the battlefield are 44, even more than twice of the real sounds. Yes, the Dragon wants to impress us that they have more supporters. But we must not be lure. These 21 basic sounds are grouped into 3 tonal levels. Middle : ¡, ¨, ´, µ, º, », à High : ¤, ª, ·,¾, ¿, «, ÃŽ Low : §, ¹, Ã, Â, Ã, Ã…, Ç Yoo should tackle each group first. Begin by the Middle because the middle does not deceive. Just be careful with ¡, some people transcript it as /k/ which might mislead you to pronouce it as /k/ in kin (English). But its sound is more like /g/ in Grammar. You might also find it difficult to pronounce µ, as I heard many pronounce like it is T. It is more pronounced like T in STOCKHOLM, STUDENT. But it is unlike T in TOY. Let's continue our practice. We will still stick in the Middle group. Our º sounds like B in BIN. While, pronouncing » is like a P in SPY, SPOON, SPUTNIK. Here, the English sound of P (usually if it comes after S) is distinguished from P in PIE.) As for Ã, I think it is easy to practice. I think it is like O in ORAL. (I don't know if I will make u confuse. But in my opinion, à is in essence a sound of a vowel. This vowel is one of the kind that could be dressed up as an alphabet too. However, this info is not important for your pronunciation practice.) What I just pick up are Thai alphabets in a BASIC MIDDLE- TONE. And some of our middle tone are also represented in other form. /´/ ---> ® /µ/----> ¯ ® is pronounced like /´/ and ¯ is also pronounced like /µ/. Both are rare in use. Usually, they are used in words from a Pali Sankrit. These two word, ¡®(a rule) Vs. ¡´ (to press) have the same sound. But their written forms and their meanings are not the same. To sum up, our alphabets in the middle-tone have only 7 sounds, but they are expressed in 9 characters. As the a group of high tonal alphabets is a little bit harsh. We should move on to sort out ''the sounds'' in a Low Tonal group one by one. I wanna use / / so that u ain't think that I refer to written characters. What I refer is sounds that are spoken. 1./§/ is similar to Ng. in English. In English, Ng do not have a chance to be put in a first order. There is only Ng sound as a last consonats, such as, a SWING, CLING. But in Thai, NG is used both in the first consonants, and last consonants. So, native-English speaker have to practice speaking Ng in the first consonats more. 2./¹/ it is like N in NO. 3./Ã/ it is like M in MOM. 4./Â/ it is like Y in Yahoo, Yuppy. 5./Ç/ it is like W in Wing. (There is no V sound in Thai. That is why it is difficult for Thai to pronounce V) 6./Ã/ it is similar to R in English. But in Thai, I think you have to shake the tip of your tongue to create more frequency. 7./Ã…/ it is like L in Love. Now again, the sounds of /Â/ and /Ã…/ have another representatives. /¹/ ----> ³ rarely seen /Â/---->  appears more often. /Ã…/----> ÃŒ is very very very very rare in use (----> means having same sounds) O...nighty, nighty... But I really have no clue what ''Kiitoksia paljon'' mean? Thank you so much. Kiitoksia paljon! Khop khun mak! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Sassy Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Learn Thai without tutor is best than sex without mamas oppinion...! Yikes! no more alcoholic drink for yah ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemenf Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 duanja wrote: The best I could suggest is a mantra : Warrior, remember that the written text does not always represent the actual voices of Thai. Thai alphabets have 21 basic Sounds, but the characters displaying at the battlefield are 44, even more than twice of the real sounds. Yes, the Dragon wants to impress us that they have more supporters. But we must not be lure. These 21 basic sounds are grouped into 3 tonal levels. Middle : ¡, ¨, ´, µ, º, », à High : ¤, ª, ·,¾, ¿, «, ÃŽ Low : §, ¹, Ã, Â, Ã, Ã…, Ç Yoo should tackle each group first. Begin by the Middle because the middle does not deceive. Just be careful with ¡, some people transcript it as /k/ which might mislead you to pronouce it as /k/ in kin (English). But its sound is more like /g/ in Grammar. You might also find it difficult to pronounce µ, as I heard many pronounce like it is T. It is more pronounced like T in STOCKHOLM, STUDENT. But it is unlike T in TOY. Thank u Duanja for practice...its great maybe for some ppl easyer to learn µ if say sounds more like 'dt' instead of 't' i think ppl from different coyuntrys pronounce Words different anyway....mean Swedish person dont say STOCKHOLM, STUDENT TOY same as Italian and german.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLR Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 The best I could suggest is a mantra : Warrior, remember that the written text does not always represent the actual voices of Thai. Thai alphabets have 21 basic Sounds, but the characters displaying at the battlefield are 44, even more than twice of the real sounds. Yes, the Dragon wants to impress us that they have more supporters. But we must not be lure. These 21 basic sounds are grouped into 3 tonal levels. Middle : ¡, ¨, ´, µ, º, », à High : ¤, ª, ·,¾, ¿, «, ÃŽ Low : §, ¹, Ã, Â, Ã, Ã…, Ç Yoo should tackle each group first. Begin by the Middle because the middle does not deceive. Just be careful with ¡, some people transcript it as /k/ which might mislead you to pronouce it as /k/ in kin (English). But its sound is more like /g/ in Grammar. You might also find it difficult to pronounce µ, as I heard many pronounce like it is T. It is more pronounced like T in STOCKHOLM, STUDENT. But it is unlike T in TOY. Let's continue our practice. We will still stick in the Middle group. Our º sounds like B in BIN. While, pronouncing » is like a P in SPY, SPOON, SPUTNIK. Here, the English sound of P (usually if it comes after S) is distinguished from P in PIE.) As for Ã, I think it is easy to practice. I think it is like O in ORAL. (I don't know if I will make u confuse. But in my opinion, à is in essence a sound of a vowel. This vowel is one of the kind that could be dressed up as an alphabet too. However, this info is not important for your pronunciation practice.) What I just pick up are Thai alphabets in a BASIC MIDDLE- TONE. And some of our middle tone are also represented in other form. /´/ ---> ® /µ/----> ¯ ® is pronounced like /´/ and ¯ is also pronounced like /µ/. Both are rare in use. Usually, they are used in words from a Pali Sankrit. These two word, ¡®(a rule) Vs. ¡´ (to press) have the same sound. But their written forms and their meanings are not the same. To sum up, our alphabets in the middle-tone have only 7 sounds, but they are expressed in 9 characters. As the a group of high tonal alphabets is a little bit harsh. We should move on to sort out ''the sounds'' in a Low Tonal group one by one. I wanna use / / so that u ain't think that I refer to written characters. What I refer is sounds that are spoken. 1./§/ is similar to Ng. in English. In English, Ng do not have a chance to be put in a first order. There is only Ng sound as a last consonats, such as, a SWING, CLING. But in Thai, NG is used both in the first consonants, and last consonants. So, native-English speaker have to practice speaking Ng in the first consonats more. 2./¹/ it is like N in NO. 3./Ã/ it is like M in MOM. 4./Â/ it is like Y in Yahoo, Yuppy. 5./Ç/ it is like W in Wing. (There is no V sound in Thai. That is why it is difficult for Thai to pronounce V) 6./Ã/ it is similar to R in English. But in Thai, I think you have to shake the tip of your tongue to create more frequency. 7./Ã…/ it is like L in Love. Now again, the sounds of /Â/ and /Ã…/ have another representatives. /¹/ ----> ³ rarely seen /Â/---->  appears more often. /Ã…/----> ÃŒ is very very very very rare in use (----> means having same sounds) O...nighty, nighty... But I really have no clue what ''Kiitoksia paljon'' mean? Thank you so much. Kiitoksia paljon! Khop khun mak! sounds hard... even for thai like me. lol .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombiedriven Posted December 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Tasha Kaur, (Pastu) for thank you. Also who ever put threads in here thanks again for all the help I am starting to believe that this is going to be interresting when I get back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyper223 Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 This has probably been smashed up and thrown away many fold. I work abroad and I come back to Thailand during my breaks but that is not enough time for a tutor. By that I mean 4-6months of solid work then just 16 days off. And what makes it worst is when I start picking up the little lines I forget them due to the other languages being shouted at me so if any one has a good suggistion I am pretty much willing to listen Thai for Beginners by Benjawan Poomsan Becker http://www.amazon.com/Thai-Beginners-Benjamin-Poomsan-Becker/dp/1887521003/sr=8-4/qid=1166933405/ (they misspell her first name in the URL) Available at Amazon, and for 299 baht at Asia Books in Bangkok. It's how I learned to speak Thai. That book, and only that book. (ok, that book at the two following volumes). It also teaches you to read and write, which I highly recomend. In fact, I recommend you buy that book, ignore all the vocabulary and text, and learn to read/write the characters of the thai alphabet first. Then read through it again and try to make yourself learn from the thai scripted entries instead of the phoneticized entries. It's hard to break old habits on what sounds english lettering is supposed to represent, even when you're given a pronunciation key. I also recommend that you don't try to learn Thai by talking to Thai people until you have a firm grasp of what exactly it is that you're hearing. Meaning, read the book first, talk to natives (in Thai) second. The problem I've run across is that many people (myself included) initially hear tones differently from how they're actually pronounced because we're trying to fit what we're hearing into an incompatible language context. If you know what it is you're *supposed* to be hearing, you've got a better chance of hearing it (and reproducing it) correctly. Before I first came to Thailand, I tried the Pimmsleur language tapes. Absolutely useless. No one could understand what I was saying. Note: the Pimmsleur method relies on having you reproduce the sounds without knowing what it is you're reproducing; no text, no explanation. Just listen and repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyper223 Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 Oh, and a tip I've tried to give to other learners. When you're speaking tones, make sure that you yourself can hear the tone you're trying to reproduce. The end result is, at least for me, that my tones tend to be a bit exaggerated. But given the choice between over-enunciating and not being understood, I choose the former. You can "tone it down" after you're familiar enough to know what methods of toning it down are acceptable and which are not. Far too many people I've met get self-conscious about over-enunciating tones, and try to speak like a native too soon. The result is that their tones are incorrect, and thus the words they're speaking are incorrect. So I'll say it again: read the book, practice alone, read the words aloud. And when you read the words aloud, make sure that you can tell what tone it is you're saying. Don't just say to yourself "I'm clever, so I know I'm reproducing the tone because I've instructed my mouth to reproduce the tone." Listen to your own voice. Do you hear the tone you're supposed to be making? Or, like so many people I've run across lately (studying chinese), is the tone you're making the reverse of what you thought you were making? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombiedriven Posted December 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 thanks mate take that into refrence but the book thing is kinda out the window seeingas how I am in a war zone working it makes getting that kind of stuff a little hard but will look for that book when back in Pattaya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoi Posted December 24, 2006 Report Share Posted December 24, 2006 The best advice is to get childrens books on learning the Thai alpahabet. There is a series of books designed for kids to learn Thai. Learning the alphabet first is a good way to get the pronuciation right. Thais get a real kick out of my being able to read Thai reasonably well even though I haven't progresed too far in speaking. My own fault... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duanja Posted December 25, 2006 Report Share Posted December 25, 2006 Continue?. Remember my goal is to give outline how to pronounce rightly. My mantras put ?the basic sound? as the nucleus, or the essence. And I explain other things by arranging around it. I just talk about the Low- tone last time. However, thel members of the Low- tones are waiting for new members. The new members of Low tonal alphabets are very similar to High-Tonal alphabets because they descended from the same parents. (the basic sounds) Let?s talk about Thai Tone a little bit more before we go on to know new member of our Low Tonal alphabets. Tone is crucial for Thai language coz it is used to differentiate the meaning. For example, »Ò (throw) »èÒ(forest) »éÒ(aunt) »êÒ (pappa) »ëÒ(pappa, sugar dada). Likewise, the different tonation of ?basic sounds? could generate different characters of Thai alphabets. Let?s compare English tone with Thai Tone. English also generate tone in their words that are arranged in the sentence (intonation pattern), such as, ?You would come, wouldn?t you?? The first ?you? and the second ?you? have different tonal levels, e.g., the level tone and high tone respectively in order to make it as a question. But unlike English, our Thai sentence does not have intonation because each of Thai word has its tone already, and the meaning of the word could be distorted if we give intonation to a pattern of Thai sentence. Thai tones are classified to 5. 1. Mid tone (no symbol given) 2.Low tone è 3.Falling tone é 4.High tone êë 5.Rising tone, ë The order of tone aboved is usually taught to Thai students. However, orders from the lowest to the highest tone are 2,3,1,4,5? I don?t know how to explain about the tone in a Thai word without pronouncing an example. But as a word in English also has a tone like Thai , so I wanna compare them so that you grasp the sense of Thai Tonal sound. èLow tone= liquid Mid tone= cry,mind, high tone =cute rising tone = na Ja in German (I can?t find in English) I could not find the example of a falling tone in English, but I am sure that there is. However, I just want to encourage English speaking people that they also use a tone in each word, but they just do not give a symbol for it, which sometimes confuse a Thai (like me ) who tries to pronounce English word. (But I have a Longman speaking dictionary to consult with) This link below might be more helpful about learning Thai tones. Please note that the ?symbol of tone? put above each word could be different with the actual tone of the word's pronunciation. To pronounce a word is like mixing colours together. Each consonants already has its colour tone, and when you mix another colour to it (giving it a tone), the displaying colour could change. http://www.learningthai.com/books/manee/vocab.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombiedriven Posted December 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2006 thanks for the site I have not really had a reliably internet connection the last few days seeing as how I kinda broke the Fiber optics the navy just put in a few weeks ago :oops: but it is working better now so thanks for all the threads again and thanks duanja for all the help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frits Posted December 30, 2006 Report Share Posted December 30, 2006 anyones knows a privat teacher in Amsterdam for learning Thai ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombiedriven Posted January 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Hey thanks SunTzu that is useful information but at any rate thanks again and I will check out those sites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duanja Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 I continue more na... Oh... I wanna add more what foreigner should be careful Foreigners who is unfamiliar with Thai tone, also find it difficult to pronounce and differentiate Thai alphabets that were born from the same parents. (basic sounds) Parents 1. /¤/ level ¤ rising ¢ 2. /ª/ level ª rising © 3. /·/ level · rising ¶ 4. /¾/ level ¾ rising ¼ 5. /¿/ level ¿ rising ½ 6. /«/ level « rising Ê7. /ÃŽ/ level ÃŽ rising Ë They are called somewhat twin, or pair sounds. Now the level sounds are classified as NEW members of a low-tone alphabets coz it have a lower sound. While rising sounds become a member of high tonal alphabets. Actually the old members of low-tonal alphabets also have their own higher tonal twin sounds. But their twins are not honoured to become ?alphabets?, but instead their higher rising tone are encoded by putting an alphabet Ë or à in front of them. Old members of low- tone alphabets are  ¹ à § à Å Ç . The higher version of the basic sounds are :  -> ๠-> ˹ à -> Ëà § -> ˧ à -> Ëà Å -> ËÅ Ç -> ËÇ They look like a group of clusters, but in fact they have one sound. They are a version of higher sound of an old member of low-tone alphabets. The new members of a low- tonal alphabets ( ¤ ª · ¿ ¾ « ÃŽ) could afford to hire the new characters, namely, ¢ © ¶ ½ ¼ ÊË, to represent its version of higher rising tone. But somehow the old members of low- tonal alphabets ( ¹ à § à Å Ç) do not want to buy the new, but unnecessary one. They want to create innovation from what they have already, so they decide to hire Ë and à as their taxi-drivers in order to show their higher tonal status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duanja Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Oh...a bird just tell me in a dream that you should check the torrents too. Search Learn Thai. There are some materials available, such as pimsleur and CD by khun Benjawan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsnow Posted January 12, 2007 Report Share Posted January 12, 2007 Duanja, just a quick side question: you have studied Thai language, right? Or what's your major? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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