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The God Delusion


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Would the world be better off without religion?  

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  1. 1. Would the world be better off without religion?



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Guest stevedsmnd

I am an atheist and the older I've got the more set i have become in my convictions but I have always been prepared to accept other people's religious views, just as long as they don't try and shove them down my throat.

My view had always been as long as they aren't harming anyone they can believe what they like, as daft as I thought their beliefs were.

Having read Stephen Dawkins 'God Dilusion' it made me look back at the experiences in my life, at religious history and how religion is affecting the world today.

I know belief that religions are harmful to the progress of mankind and the sooner the peoples of the world realise this the better off this world will be.

When I say harmful, i don't just mean in the physical sense as we can see today but also clouding people's judgement, wasting time and energy and generally holding back progress and of couse the hatred that always seems to surface when religion is discussed.

Religion, to me , is just a tool for manipulating others.

In my opinion, there is no 'right and wrong' that just conjures up a religious view. There is social and unsocial behaviour.

Man, has always been, a social animal and so to survive, he has had to behave in a social way otherwise he would be shunned from society and perish.

My question is (at last) would the world be better off without religion?

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Actually I voted that the world would be better off without it, but in reality it would not. I am not religious by any stretch of the imagination, but there are some religions that do help. Buddhism is just one such. The teachings are really for your lifestyle, but with a supernatural bit as well. The bit about spirits and all that can be taken with a grain (or handful) of salt, but it is impossible to deny that giving the early civilisation a base upon which to build and grow a society was a good idea. The problems come when the concepts thatwere originally meant as a lifestyle guideline start to be bent out of shape and used to futher the political aims of a minority. I am not speaking about any one group either...I am talking about the way some people, will use anything they can grab to defeat their "enemy" and take power to themselves...and unfortunately religion is an excellent tool for this because it relies so much on blind faith...not logic...to control the masses...very sad.

Unfortunately people do need to believe in something, especially in times of need, when they feel there is no-where to turn, and no-one can help...at that time, a supernatural power that can make it all right, and take away the pain, is a huge help to those in need. So I think, due to the human condition, we cannot do without it, but must learn how to prevent it's misuse.

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....

When you've finished patting yourself on the back for your astute observations and conclusions on Life, Religion and Everything, why not come up with a practical solution to the problem as you see it Einstein?

given the large number of people being addressed as einstein on this website, should i conclude that mr einstein has several fake profiles? can i start banning the mofos?

at any rate there does seem to be substantial evidence that we have a 'religious instinct'.... a predisposition toward religious sentiment... if this is indeed the case it would certainly add to the difficulty of 'curing' religion.

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Guest stevedsmnd
Alleluia!

Revelations? Hardly.

You find yourself in the fortuitously fortunate position of have been granted the freedom and intelligence to examine all the evidence and so-called evidence and to draw your own conclusions.

For many if not most of the people who are "shoving it down your throat" (as in they're constantly worshipping all over the show, spoiling your views of tasty totty with overly-conservative clothes and taking all those crafty religious holidays which you no doubt work I take it), their RELIGIOUS BELIEFS were not something which their were alowed to choose for themselves, either because their society would not allow it, or they were kept uneducated, ignorant and blind to other possibilites.

When you've finished patting yourself on the back for your astute observations and conclusions on Life, Religion and Everything, why not come up with a practical solution to the problem as you see it Einstein?

Agreed.I am in a more fortunate position than those who are less educated and that are force fed religion and know no alternative and I feel for these people because like I said they are being manipulated by their religious leaders and those in power.

I don't consider observing people at prayer or wearing their religious apparel as them 'shoving religion down my throat'. I was refereing to people who actively try and persuade you to join their religion and follow their ways.

AS for them spoiling my view of tasty totty and me being jealous of them having religious holidays!! Well from reading your past posts and journals it is the sort of judgmental statement i would expect from you.

There is no self back patting going on here..I was just airing my views and wondering what other people thought which ,correct me if I am wrong, is the point of forums.

I can see no real practical solution to this problem. Can You?

Maybe one day religion will become a thing of the past and I believe that will be a better place to live.

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Guest stevedsmnd
I know belief that religions are harmful to the progress of mankind and the sooner the peoples of the world realise this the better off this world will be.

When I say harmful, i don't just mean in the physical sense as we can see today but also clouding people's judgement, wasting time and energy and generally holding back progress and of couse the hatred that always seems to surface when religion is discussed.

Religion, to me , is just a tool for manipulating others.

My question is (at last) would the world be better off without religion?

1. for clarity - are you saying all religion is bad? or are you saying religion is [perhaps] abused/misinterpreted [in God's name].. these are two completely

different positionalities, are they not?

1. I wouldn't say all religion is bad I don't agree with the following of religions and i believe they are abused/misinterpreted. I believe that if kids at school were taught social skills instead of trying to make them belief in fantastic miracles, reincarnation or going to a place where a number of virgins will pamper you for the rest of your everlife, the world would be a better place.

2. thank you for bringing Dawkins 'the god delusion' to our attention - but what, exactly, are you saying against creationist ideas? Are you saying it is a persitent false belief? and finally, can you state your own position. i suspect you might be a sexed-up atheist (a pantheist). am i right?

2. I don't believe in the creationist idea full stop. I'm with the evolutionists on that one. No, I 'm not a Pantheist either..I don't believe in any gods.

I don't believe in any gods, spirits, ghosts or that Aliens came down to earth to get us started. I do have a respect and belief in nature..the biological workings of our planet..which we are ******* up.

for starters - let's consider chapter 1 'a deeply religious non-believer'. what is your view? I have mine.

Bugger!... let me look back at chapter one again..oh yeah..no i wouldn't say i was a religious non-believer, as i said i find nature amazing but i don't believe it was created by anyone or thing other than evolution surely a religion or to be religious means there is a god or a belief in a god and I don't go along with that...What is your view?

btw - my positionlaity - I am intrigued by Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.

I was not aware of Spinoza's God..interesting..still I have to say that I am 100% atheist..we live, we die that's it..just like every other living thing on this planet. The only thing we need to follow is to live sociably and survive.

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Guest stevedsmnd
....

When you've finished patting yourself on the back for your astute observations and conclusions on Life, Religion and Everything, why not come up with a practical solution to the problem as you see it Einstein?

given the large number of people being addressed as einstein on this website, should i conclude that mr einstein has several fake profiles? can i start banning the mofos?

at any rate there does seem to be substantial evidence that we have a 'religious instinct'.... a predisposition toward religious sentiment... if this is indeed the case it would certainly add to the difficulty of 'curing' religion.

i don't believe in Gods and i don't believe in religious instincts either;

religion seems another medium for the instincts to manifest themselves, and a solution to the process of socialization

as such it doesn't solve the problems arising from instinctive behavior (killing, eating, procreating, socializing) but gives it an accepted shape, accepted as a practice by being a member of the religion, on the authority of some Being above all

i think you can think of different solutions to those problems but you won't get around the excesses of instinctive behavior, people are people, and they'll kill each other whether they are religious or not, they'll always find a justification for that, whether it's killing the infidels, stopping communism, or spreading democracy

the trouble may be an excessive focus on principles, ideas, concepts rather than respecting people for being people, and i don't think any system will ever be safe from that

one good thing about religion was that it kept people dumb enough not to make nuclear weapons and super-efficient killing machines so that killing was still relatively small-scale, now there are no limits anymore to the damage that can be done given a couple of fools and some "principles", whether they're religious or not

agreed

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Some people just seem more predisposed to having that blind faith that it takes to believe in god or follow a religion just as some people are born with a predisposition to be gay or to become alcoholics.

The need for a belief in something for which there is ABSOLUTELY NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE may be due to an imbalance of chemicals in the brain caused by genetics.

One sad thing is how all the presidential candidates in the USA must somehow show the constituents that they have religion. It sickens me. Family values campaigns and the war on drugs also rank high on my list of things that turn me off.

I've always been baffled by the presence of churches in Missouri as it touts itself as the "SHOW ME STATE"

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Some people just seem more predisposed to having that blind faith that it takes to believe in god or follow a religion just as some people are born with a predisposition to be gay or to become alcoholics.

agree; which suggests instinct.

The need for a belief in something for which there is ABSOLUTELY NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE may be due to an imbalance of chemicals in the brain caused by genetics.

One sad thing is how all the presidential candidates in the USA must somehow show the constituents that they have religion. It sickens me. Family values campaigns and the war on drugs also rank high on my list of things that turn me off.

I've always been baffled by the presence of churches in Missouri as it touts itself as the "SHOW ME STATE"

agree.

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.

The need for a belief in something for which there is ABSOLUTELY NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE may be due to an imbalance of chemicals in the brain caused by genetics.

Our father,

who art in heaven ,

hallowed be thy name,

please forgive me for praying but i've been told its due to a genetic imbalance of chemicals in the old nonce.

Amen .

hahaha....love it.

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I like Carl Jungs interpetation of religion in his Book "Symbol and Psyche" He talks about psychological archtypes which we as humans need to understand and interpret the world. Christ being a perfection to reach for and the devil the bad to stay away. Bush representing the dum ass side of life etc etc :twisted:

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i don't believe in Gods and i don't believe in religious instincts either; religion seems another medium for the instincts to manifest themselves, and a solution to the process of socialization

as such it doesn't solve the problems arising from instinctive behavior (killing, eating, procreating, socializing) but gives it an accepted shape, accepted as a practice by being a member of the religion, on the authority of some Being above all

i think you can think of different solutions to those problems but you won't get around the excesses of instinctive behavior, people are people, and they'll kill each other whether they are religious or not, they'll always find a justification for that, whether it's killing the infidels, stopping communism, or spreading democracy

the trouble may be an excessive focus on principles, ideas, concepts rather than respecting people for being people, and i don't think any system will ever be safe from that

one good thing about religion was that it kept people dumb enough not to make nuclear weapons and super-efficient killing machines so that killing was still relatively small-scale, now there are no limits anymore to the damage that can be done given a couple of fools and some "principles", whether they're religious or not

[please accept with liberty of subjective interpretation] good answer, espcially the idea that religion may be a medium for the instincts to manifest themselves, a solution to the process of socialization. which kind of suggests that religion may be a similar function to that of the state ...about the power of regulating and organising people's lives (hang on we've been here before with Smithsonian logic, capitalism marxism.......). where you mention '[sic] excessive focus on principles, ideas, concepts rather than respecting people for being people, and i don't think any system will ever be safe from that', this kind of leads one to think that you may get some perverse satisfaction out of Spinoza's logic: a God that reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings. but then again, maybe not

I think you have not understood Spinoza's God.

In Spinoza there's no God external to what is "created", and what there is is not a revelation of some God. There is no "creation" and there is no "revelation" whatsoever.

With Spinoza God IS Nature - the things we experience via their existence in a reality outside us, us including, as well as the thoughts we think, and an infinitude of other ways of being (the other attributes) we cannot partake in.

God doesn't need to care about us because we're all together part of this God, just shapes of it, and we never do anything "wrong" or "right", we only do what is necessary, what we must. The only things we do is move from one perfection to another, preferably greater (by exercise of the faculty called the intellect). So yes, this is a theory for perfectionists.

So, God doesn't "reveal himself", he only is what is, and we know only part of it, but anything we experience and think are two attributes of God.

And I'm not saying he's right or that this is the complete story, but that is how I understand his theory.

hum. which bit of Spinoza's logic do you think i do not get? your answer reaffirms what I am saying, i think.

no i disagree!!!!!

instead i think his reply reaffirms what your'e saying...

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Wouldn't you agree that for many people the belief in some almighty power, controller, overseer, big bang starter or whatever you might refer to it as, is infinitely more preferable to the alternative?

depends on what you mean by 'preferable.' i *do* think that people, on average, are wired to prefer it.

for example, one who has something difficult and/or dangerous to accomplish might pursue the task with more confidence and dedication in the belief God is on their side. the implications for natural selection are pretty straightforward, and BANG a few hundred thousand years later we're left with ballers who thank God for helping them knock down the three pointer...

I expect that there are a great many outspoken atheists who, when lying upon their deathbeds and feeling the cold arms of death encompassing them, cry out to god in a last desperate attempt for it not to just simply end.

probably, there are. although i've seen a few expire with no such cry.

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Wouldn't you agree that for many people the belief in some almighty power, controller, overseer, big bang starter or whatever you might refer to it as, is infinitely more preferable to the alternative?

I expect that there are a great many outspoken atheists who, when lying upon their deathbeds and feeling the cold arms of death encompassing them, cry out to god in a last desperate attempt for it not to just simply end.

It's an imbalance of chemicals in the brain caused by genetics."..! C'mon Big G..just kiddin ya!

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Guest stevedsmnd
Wouldn't you agree that for many people the belief in some almighty power, controller, overseer, big bang starter or whatever you might refer to it as, is infinitely more preferable to the alternative?

But what is wrong with the alternative..there is nothing to worry about. You don't have to worry about being judged and burning in hell or coming back as a two toed sloth.

I expect that there are a great many outspoken atheists who, when lying upon their deathbeds and feeling the cold arms of death encompassing them, cry out to god in a last desperate attempt for it not to just simply end.

I expect your right, there maybe but also i'm sure their will be religious leaders who have manipulated their people to suit their own aims who on their deathbed will be hoping there isn't a god who knows what they have done

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Wouldn't you agree that for many people the belief in some almighty power, controller, overseer, big bang starter or whatever you might refer to it as, is infinitely more preferable to the alternative?

I expect that there are a great many outspoken atheists who, when lying upon their deathbeds and feeling the cold arms of death encompassing them, cry out to god in a last desperate attempt for it not to just simply end.

i took so many drugs in my youth, thought i wouldn't live past 40.

i almost died once, aged 25, following a weekend of excessive partying. my heart stopped for 3 mins. here i learned that the space in betwen this world and the next isn't cold, it is full of love and was full of my dead relatives and friends encouraging me to go back.

finally some love somewhere!

Still on the drugs at that stage it seems

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I expect that there are a great many outspoken atheists who, when lying upon their deathbeds and feeling the cold arms of death encompassing them, cry out to god in a last desperate attempt for it not to just simply end.

probably, there are. although i've seen a few expire with no such cry.

Atheists?

Surely they were the ones who felt no need to cry out.

(in keeping with the tone of the thread) no, they were the ones who felt no need to cry out.

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Guest stevedsmnd
(I think this is what you meant to say.)
Wouldn't you agree that for many people the belief in some almighty power, controller, overseer, big bang starter or whatever you might refer to it as, is infinitely more preferable to the alternative?

But what is wrong with the alternative..there is nothing to worry about. You don't have to worry about being judged and burning in hell or coming back as a two toed sloth.

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't in the least referring to a "religious" concept at all. I was suggesting that for many people, it is more preferable to think that there is something more going on than we are aware of. I.e., that there might be more after this, coz if this is really all there is, then why bother with anything at all?

I expect that there are a great many outspoken atheists who, when lying upon their deathbeds and feeling the cold arms of death encompassing them, cry out to god in a last desperate attempt for it not to just simply end.

I expect your right, there maybe but also i'm sure their will be religious leaders who have manipulated their people to suit their own aims who on their deathbed will be hoping there isn't a god who knows what they have done

Agree. Sorry.

But again I'm not referring to religion. You appear to be referring to god and religion as one and the same thing. As I've said before (I know you've seeen my previous comment coz you said so), God, insofar as whatever it may or may not be (and not the "Invisible man who lives in the clouds, threatens us with everlasting damnation but still loves us AND wants money"), has as little to do with "religion", as a means to control people and obtain and retain power as do a small bag of walnuts.

Yep, that was what i meant to say..thanks..I'm a newbie and old..this new fangled technology!

I did misunderstand you the first time round and now i get where you are coming from but I still think that this is all there is and the reason we should bother is simply becuase this is all there is...enjoy it, it makes life that much more precious than if you wish to delude yourself in thinking that there is something better when you die then you take the gloss of the life you are leading now...in my opinion

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