Jump to content

EVIL


Mazzy
 Share

Who was the most evil person that ever existed? (Facultative list to get things started)  

196 members have voted

  1. 1. Who was the most evil person that ever existed? (Facultative list to get things started)

    • 1. Adolph Hitler.
    • 2. Vlad Tepes.
    • 3. H. H. Holmes.
    • 4. None of the above (suggest one).


Recommended Posts

German civilians were also complicit in what happened to the Jews, Gypsies, Catholics, Gays and other minorities. They helped turn them in. They stood by and did nothing even when they lived right next to the camps and the gas chambers. Germany was not a nation divided by what was being perpetrated in its midst. The civilians supported Hitler and his regime. They knew what was happening and they supported it. THAT IS EVIL.

this is true true true dirty true, and Germans never have come to grips with it. they're trying, i guess, but what i usually hear is "it was somebody else/before my time, nothin to do with me".

Sorry Loburt and Steve but that's a generalisation that I have to disagree with. Most of the German certainly didn't know that the jews were being systematically murdered in gaz chamber. Some might have suspected a few might have known but that was a minority. What most people did know was that their governement was a racist one and that the jews were being taken away to be deported in the east. Most Germans were too busy surviving the daily adverse effect of the war to afford the time and energy to learn anything beyond that.

Some Germans actually protested Hitler's racist policy. For example I have some friends from the city of Lubeck. Well, the whole village was sent in a concentration camp because they refused to abide by Hitler's will.

But you are right on one thing, most German did nothing. Why? For the same reason that the jews themselves often didn't resist deportation or extermination: Fear of worst treatment or punishment. When you live in times of war, you quickly understand how little your life is worth to the government and other political leaders, and you learn that the easiest way to survive is to blend in. Nothing evil in that, just your basic survival 101.

Some Germans voluntarily collaborated with Hitler's regime and whole heartedely accepted the racist laws, but I hardly think that it was the majority of the people. Just a small active and vocal minority and even they, I suspect, weren't fully realizing what this was leading to....

Don't agree Mazzy. Yes, it's a generalization, but it fits for many if not most people at that time.

By the mid-40s most Germans had to have known what was happening to the Jews and others. The leaders in the West certainly knew. And I've seen films of Allied troops coming into a German town where there was a concentration camp so close you could smell the burning bodies. It was clear from the questioning of the townspeople that they what was happening in that camp.

The Jews were a minority and could do little to resist. They had no arms. Although they certainly resisted in Warsaw. And when they were first taken away in the late '30s in Germany, no one was sure what their fate would be.

But very few Germans protested at any point in time. Despite blatant human rights violations going on in front of their eyes. Most did not remain silent for fear of Hitler and his murderous thugs. They worshiped him and celebrated what he did. Their hatred of others and beliefs of racial superiority defined them.

For those that raised their hands in salute to Hitler, they are complicit in murder. They bear the stain of guilt. And they were the majority.

I will agree with Hobbes' first paragraph. I don't believe those born after need to hang their heads in shame in any personal way. If they have indeed learned the lessons. And the Germans have done a far better job in coming to grips with what their nation did than the Japanese have. The Japanese who still do not include a true accounting of their actions in school textbooks so that young Japanese don't know their nation's past.

This discussion began with Mr. Yoi claiming a great crime had been committed against innocent Germans.

Well, I wish I could imprison him in a German concentration camp for a while and then see if he thinks what happened to Germans after the war was as great a crime as he is whining about.

What the Germans suffered for about a year after WWII does not approach in any way, shape or form the magnitude of suffering they inflicted on others. Others who were innocents.

And don't lump me in with anything that other guy says. I disassociate myself with any and all of his remarks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 110
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

make your mind up Loburt - first of all I am anti Israeli and now I support anti-muslims!!! Maybe I just hate everyone lol!! :twisted:

I was speaking of why he is a national hero to Romanians.

Please find a reason for that aside from what I've stated. Please detail the good things he did for his country and people aside from slaughtering Muslim invaders.

You hate everyone? Well, speak for yourself. I haven't put any words in your mouth, although you are pretty good at putting them in mine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just on the Germans during WW2 , didnt we all read ' The Wave " during high school ???

Its so easy to make a stand NOW against Nazism , in the comfort of ones air-conditioned apartment or office while spending time in front of the computer logged onto TF .

Not excusing the Germans of course , but why would you go against the ' wave ' and create problems for your self/ family even if you knew what the military was doing with the Jews .

I think most other races in the same circumstances , would've had the " its better them , than me " mentality .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Loburt, RE: German guilt

The information about the faith of the Jews was available, I don't dispute that. It was available to everyone in Germany and in developed countries abroad (US., France UK, etc.) also. Hitler's plan for the Jews is pretty obvious anyway to anyone who reads Mein Kampf, and the book was published in several languages before and during the war.

However, most educated Germans had learned not to trust the information that they heard in Gobbel/Hitler's speeches and the newspapers, they rightfully assumed that most of it was misinformation, lies and propaganda. How could they have known that when he was talking about the jews, he was actually being honest for once...

What I'm trying to say is, yes the information was available to anyone actively looking for it inside or outside of Germany. Yet most German people were too busy surviving the bombardments to have the time to get acquainted with it. Also the few that did learn likely didn't believe it and assumed that it was propaganda.

About German living close to concentration camps - I think you are confusing concentration camps with extermination camps. Yes there were some concentration camps in Germany, but all the extermination camps (were most of the Holocaust took place) were located in Poland.

About people German people worshiping and celebrating Hitler- That was before the war and the beginning of the mass exterminations started. Following his defeat in Russia, Hitler refused to speak in public, and there were no big rally organised from that time on.

The Germans made the mistake of believing in Hitler and letting him take power, that much I can agree with. But complicity in the Holocaust? That's going a bit too far for me.

BTW- I agree with you about the Japanese.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Germans made the mistake of believing in Hitler and letting him take power, that much I can agree with. But complicity in the Holocaust? That's going a bit too far for me.

BTW- I agree with you about the Japanese.

come on ..... it takes a lot of ppl and infrastructure to kill around 6 million jews and another 6 million of various races ..... and yes i do believe that the german ppl of that time were complicit in the Holocaust !!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Germans made the mistake of believing in Hitler and letting him take power, that much I can agree with. But complicity in the Holocaust? That's going a bit too far for me.

BTW- I agree with you about the Japanese.

come on ..... it takes a lot of ppl and infrastructure to kill around 6 million jews and another 6 million of various races ..... and yes i do believe that the german ppl of that time were complicit in the Holocaust !!!

Actually you would be surprised by how few people it took to run the extermination camps. The trick was as machiavelic as it was evil, get the jews to kill their own = sonderkommando, judenrat, jewish order service, etc. As for thinking that the Germans are complice to the holocaust, you should at least go to the end of that logic. If you feel that the German knew, you should feel the same way about the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians. They all had access to about the same amount of information.

Besides, it's been more than 60 years now, don't you think that the grand children of people who lived at that time deserve a life free of guilt? I'm not saying that we should forget, but definitely forgive...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are really twisting this whole discussion, Mazzy. Probably because you did not read the debate from its beginning, but instead just picked up on that idiot's last comment posted a day or two ago.

No one, except him, is saying the grandchildren of Germans alive during WWII bear guilt. No one is saying that.

Comparing American or British citizens to German citizens during the Holocaust is a really poorly thought out argument on your part. Jews and others were being rounded up in the midst of, and WITH THE HELP OF, German citizens. Germany was not like Burma where the population was enslaved by a military regime. Most Germans were enthusiastic supporters of Hitler and his actions, including rounding up minorities and invading neighboring countries. A minority did not agree. The majority did. And to say they did not support him as much after the defeat in Russia, well most minorities had been rounded up by then.

Many death camps were in Poland, but there were also some in Germany and western Europe. And in Germany you had slave labor camps such as Peenamunda (sp). Very open and blatant.

Your apologist approach for a population that endorsed ethnic cleansing and genocide is really stunning from someone who is usually clear headed.

Now, if you go back and read this thread from the start, you will understand the context of the argument.

The OP contends that an innocent German population under occupation by the US was deliberately starved and brutalized and this is a war crime on the magnitude of all others. He bases this on the writings of a certain state department official, I believe, who recommended harsh treatment of the Germans.

The counter arguments are:

He has no evidence to support the US carried out the writings of this individual as an active policy. Lots of people in the SD write lots of stuff. It doesn't all translate to policy.

Hunger and starvation were widespread across Europe and many other parts of the world at the end of WWII. Check the FAO website. It clearly states that and that is why it was founded. It was an emergency situation.

Not all areas of Germany were occupied by the US military, yet hunger and starvation existed in the other areas of Germany as well. Not to mention other areas of Europe.

There is no acknowledgment on the OP's part of the logistical challenge of feeding countless millions of people across a continent where the infrastructure has been shattered by war. A war started by Germany.

There is no acknowledgment on the OP's part that for the first year of occupation - which is the time period of this alleged deliberate policy of starvation - that remaining Nazi groups were still involved in guerrilla war with occupying soldiers. The war was officially over, but fighting and suppression of these groups went on for about a year.

And, if the German population was being so badly treated by their occupiers, why didn't more German citizens join this resistance?

The OP's contention is that an innocent German population should have been treated exactly the same in the areas of aid and comfort as the millions upon millions of people who had been made refugees, homeless, or sent to concentration and slave labor camps by Germany's hand.

I disagree.

In the first place, I do not agree the German population was innocent, and we've covered that already. I'm not advocating punishment, simply saying they are not innocent.

Second, if there are plentiful resources, I already said starving the defeated as punishment is wrong. (Once again, the OP hasn't proved that happened) But, in the face of limited resources - as evidenced by hunger and starvation across the continent - priority should naturally have been given to the victims of German war, aggression and genocide rather than the Germans themselves.

There is not a moral equivalency between Germany's victims and the Germans themselves.

I think if you compare the treatment of Germans after WWII compared to the treatment of peoples the Germans occupied, the Germans have little to complain about.

Certainly, I don't agree that some great crime was committed by the US against Germany following WWII.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are really twisting this whole discussion, Mazzy. Probably because you did not read the debate from its beginning, but instead just picked up on that idiot's last comment posted a day or two ago.

No one, except him, is saying the grandchildren of Germans alive during WWII bear guilt. No one is saying that.

Comparing American or British citizens to German citizens during the Holocaust is a really poorly thought out argument on your part. Jews and others were being rounded up in the midst of, and WITH THE HELP OF, German citizens. Germany was not like Burma where the population was enslaved by a military regime. Most Germans were enthusiastic supporters of Hitler and his actions, including rounding up minorities and invading neighboring countries. A minority did not agree. The majority did. And to say they did not support him as much after the defeat in Russia, well most minorities had been rounded up by then.

Many death camps were in Poland, but there were also some in Germany and western Europe. And in Germany you had slave labor camps such as Peenamunda (sp). Very open and blatant.

Your apologist approach for a population that endorsed ethnic cleansing and genocide is really stunning from someone who is usually clear headed.

Now, if you go back and read this thread from the start, you will understand the context of the argument.

The OP contends that an innocent German population under occupation by the US was deliberately starved and brutalized and this is a war crime on the magnitude of all others. He bases this on the writings of a certain state department official, I believe, who recommended harsh treatment of the Germans.

The counter arguments are:

He has no evidence to support the US carried out the writings of this individual as an active policy. Lots of people in the SD write lots of stuff. It doesn't all translate to policy.

Hunger and starvation were widespread across Europe and many other parts of the world at the end of WWII. Check the FAO website. It clearly states that and that is why it was founded. It was an emergency situation.

Not all areas of Germany were occupied by the US military, yet hunger and starvation existed in the other areas of Germany as well. Not to mention other areas of Europe.

There is no acknowledgment on the OP's part of the logistical challenge of feeding countless millions of people across a continent where the infrastructure has been shattered by war. A war started by Germany.

There is no acknowledgment on the OP's part that for the first year of occupation - which is the time period of this alleged deliberate policy of starvation - that remaining Nazi groups were still involved in guerrilla war with occupying soldiers. The war was officially over, but fighting and suppression of these groups went on for about a year.

And, if the German population was being so badly treated by their occupiers, why didn't more German citizens join this resistance?

The OP's contention is that an innocent German population should have been treated exactly the same in the areas of aid and comfort as the millions upon millions of people who had been made refugees, homeless, or sent to concentration and slave labor camps by Germany's hand.

I disagree.

In the first place, I do not agree the German population was innocent, and we've covered that already. I'm not advocating punishment, simply saying they are not innocent.

Second, if there are plentiful resources, I already said starving the defeated as punishment is wrong. (Once again, the OP hasn't proved that happened) But, in the face of limited resources - as evidenced by hunger and starvation across the continent - priority should naturally have been given to the victims of German war, aggression and genocide rather than the Germans themselves.

There is not a moral equivalency between Germany's victims and the Germans themselves.

I think if you compare the treatment of Germans after WWII compared to the treatment of peoples the Germans occupied, the Germans have little to complain about.

Certainly, I don't agree that some great crime was committed by the US against Germany following WWII.

Loburt, this is getting complicated. I actually agree with most of what you are saying. I definitely jumped in the middle of the race and I apologize for that. I certainly don't support the argumentation line of that other guy or say that the Germans of that time were blameless. As I said in my previous post, they did put Hitler in power.

As for the specific facts of both of my posts, I stick by them, I spent a lot of time studying that particular period of contemporary history and would be glad to back up my facts with credible sources if needed. For exemple, there were only 5 (or 6 depending on the sources) extermination camps: Auschwitz, Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Majdanek and Treblinka, all of them were located in Poland. There were only concentration camps in Germany. The images you saw are likely from Bergen-Belsen or Mathausen, both were extremely hard concentration camps, but not extermination camps.

I am definitely not an apologist, because an apologist is someone who denies the holocaust. I would never support such a stupid position. I am only a realist who try to look at the facts from the sources and attempt to draw logical conclusion from them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Germans made the mistake of believing in Hitler and letting him take power, that much I can agree with. But complicity in the Holocaust? That's going a bit too far for me.

BTW- I agree with you about the Japanese.

come on ..... it takes a lot of ppl and infrastructure to kill around 6 million jews and another 6 million of various races ..... and yes i do believe that the german ppl of that time were complicit in the Holocaust !!!

Actually you would be surprised by how few people it took to run the extermination camps. The trick was as machiavelic as it was evil, get the jews to kill their own = sonderkommando, judenrat, jewish order service, etc. As for thinking that the Germans are complice to the holocaust, you should at least go to the end of that logic. If you feel that the German knew, you should feel the same way about the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians. They all had access to about the same amount of information.

Besides, it's been more than 60 years now, don't you think that the grand children of people who lived at that time deserve a life free of guilt? I'm not saying that we should forget, but definitely forgive...

killing millions of ppl was a fairly labour intensive industry .... it wasn't just the camps. u had to round up the ppl, transport them, kill them and then dispose of the bodies !! lots of germans were actively involved and even more knew about it !!

also if u actually read my post i said

and yes i do believe that the german ppl of that time were complicit in the Holocaust !!!
.... i'm not blaming the current generation !!

and to try and say the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians were equally responsible for the holocaust is nonsense !!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The trick was as machiavelic as it was evil, get the jews to kill their own = sonderkommando, judenrat, jewish order service, etc.

so now you are exonerating the German citizens but blaming the Jews for the Holocaust?

did you actually think before you posted that?

I am certainly not blaming the jews for the holocaust, you are putting words in my mouth and twisting my words Loburt. As for the specific, please do verify them, before making accusations. These are well known facts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and to try and say the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians were equally responsible for the holocaust is nonsense !!

You also didn't read my post well Ciaran, I never said that the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians were equally responsible for the holocaust. I only said that they also knew what was happening. Again, by all mean, do verify the facts if you don't believe me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way, Loburt, Ciaran, I was starting to enjoy this, but I gotta hit the sack now.

I'll be ready for round 2 in the morning if you feel like it. That should give you the time to verify the facts before we continue this discussion, it's always more interesting to exchange with people whose position is informed and supported by evidence, rather than personal feelings. 8)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and to try and say the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians were equally responsible for the holocaust is nonsense !!

You also didn't read my post well Ciaran, I never said that the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians were equally responsible for the holocaust. I only said that they also knew what was happening. Again, by all mean, do verify the facts if you don't believe me.

well this is what u posted ....

As for thinking that the Germans are complice to the holocaust, you should at least go to the end of that logic. If you feel that the German knew, you should feel the same way about the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians. They all had access to about the same amount of information

now that to me reads that i should equally blame the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians for the holocaust as they were just as complicit as the germans .... sorry i don't see it that way.

ppl in some countries did assist the germans in their rounding up and killing of the jews (some fairly enthusiastically), but it was a german program, developed by the nazis and driven by the nazi party !!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and to try and say the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians were equally responsible for the holocaust is nonsense !!

You also didn't read my post well Ciaran, I never said that the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians were equally responsible for the holocaust. I only said that they also knew what was happening. Again, by all mean, do verify the facts if you don't believe me.

well this is what u posted ....

As for thinking that the Germans are complice to the holocaust, you should at least go to the end of that logic. If you feel that the German knew, you should feel the same way about the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians. They all had access to about the same amount of information

now that to me reads that i should equally blame the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians for the holocaust as they were just as complicit as the germans .... sorry i don't see it that way.

ppl in some countries did assist the germans in their rounding up and killing of the jews (some fairly enthusiastically), but it was a german program, developed by the nazis and driven by the nazi party !!

at any rate Mazzy clarified that he does not intend to say that Americans, Brits, etc are EQUALLY so what you're doing by responding to that is essentially flogging a straw man.

the interesting question for those who place the blame squarely on the German people---what would YOU have done, had you been there? i'm sure you'd have all been heroes, and stopped all this holocaust nonsense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[

at any rate Mazzy clarified that he does not intend to say that Americans, Brits, etc are EQUALLY so what you're doing by responding to that is essentially flogging a straw man.

the interesting question for those who place the blame squarely on the German people---what would YOU have done, had you been there? i'm sure you'd have all been heroes, and stopped all this holocaust nonsense.

Talk about a straw man.

If, as I pointed out, you read the exchange that this started from, no one aside from Steevolution is attempting to crucify the German people. This was a response to someone claiming that they are totally blameless and were the victims of a humanitarian crime perpetrated by the US on the same order as humanitarian crimes committed by Germany.

When you see those pictures of lynchings in the Deep South from the 1920s and 30s with the whole town gathered around and smiling and celebrating, do you think only the guy holding the rope was guilty?

Yeah it's easy to blame when you're sitting behind a computer 60 or 70 years later. And it's also easy to whitewash it all from the same vantage point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and to try and say the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians were equally responsible for the holocaust is nonsense !!

You also didn't read my post well Ciaran, I never said that the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians were equally responsible for the holocaust. I only said that they also knew what was happening. Again, by all mean, do verify the facts if you don't believe me.

well this is what u posted ....

As for thinking that the Germans are complice to the holocaust, you should at least go to the end of that logic. If you feel that the German knew, you should feel the same way about the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians. They all had access to about the same amount of information

now that to me reads that i should equally blame the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians for the holocaust as they were just as complicit as the germans .... sorry i don't see it that way.

ppl in some countries did assist the germans in their rounding up and killing of the jews (some fairly enthusiastically), but it was a german program, developed by the nazis and driven by the nazi party !!

at any rate Mazzy clarified that he does not intend to say that Americans, Brits, etc are EQUALLY so what you're doing by responding to that is essentially flogging a straw man.

the interesting question for those who place the blame squarely on the German people---what would YOU have done, had you been there? i'm sure you'd have all been heroes, and stopped all this holocaust nonsense.

he didn't clarify anything .... he claimed that he hadn't blamed them

You also didn't read my post well Ciaran, I never said that the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians were equally responsible for the holocaust

well my reading of his post is that he is implying (maybe even stating) that the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians were complict in the holocaust .... i don't agree !!

and as for flogging straw men ... sorry for stepping on ur turf !!!

as for what any of us would have done during the holocaust .... impossible to say .... some may have fought against it, some may have ignored it and some may have joined in !!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for the specific facts of both of my posts, I stick by them, I spent a lot of time studying that particular period of contemporary history and would be glad to back up my facts with credible sources if needed. For exemple, there were only 5 (or 6 depending on the sources) extermination camps: Auschwitz, Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Majdanek and Treblinka, all of them were located in Poland. There were only concentration camps in Germany. The images you saw are likely from Bergen-Belsen or Mathausen, both were extremely hard concentration camps, but not extermination camps.

You are correct in that Bergen-Belsen and Mauthausen are classified as concentration camps and not as extermination camps. The only difference seems to be that in former people were worked to death, or near death before being killed, while in the latter they were just killed. That's kind of splitting hairs, isn't it?

Nonetheless, Mauthausen had gas chambers, and by some accounts 180,000 people died there. Some put the figure at 36,000. At Bergen-Belsen, thousands of corpses were piled high when Allied troops entered. Something like 50,000 prisoners died there during the final months of the war.

I'm not enjoying this as you are, and see no need for round two. The points have been made.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you feel that the German knew, you should feel the same way about the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians. They all had access to about the same amount of information.

one tiny little minor point .... all of those fought against the nazis in WW2 (yes even the italians .... eventually), helping beat the nazis and bringing the war and holocaust to an end !!! just in case anybody had forgot !!!

there was also a vigourous debate about whether or not to bomb the camps, but they were never bombed !!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

at any rate Mazzy clarified that he does not intend to say that Americans, Brits, etc are EQUALLY so what you're doing by responding to that is essentially flogging a straw man.

the interesting question for those who place the blame squarely on the German people---what would YOU have done, had you been there? i'm sure you'd have all been heroes, and stopped all this holocaust nonsense.

Talk about a straw man.

oh really. do explain how. this should be interesting.

If, as I pointed out, you read the exchange that this started from, no one aside from Steevolution is attempting to crucify the German people.

has it occurred to you that i read the whole thread? or that if i'd disagreed with what you said in response to Yoi i would have said so? or maybe you didn't notice the "exchange that this started from" ended in JANUARY???? or that steevolution's post is WHAT GOT THE THREAD GOING AGAIN??? apparently not.

This was a response to someone claiming that they are totally blameless and were the victims of a humanitarian crime perpetrated by the US on the same order as humanitarian crimes committed by Germany.

ummmm AGAIN: check the post dates, and read the thread if you haven't already: seems to me one might be fairly well justified in considering from steevolution's post onward a new 'exchange.'

When you see those pictures of lynchings in the Deep South from the 1920s and 30s with the whole town gathered around and smiling and celebrating, do you think only the guy holding the rope was guilty?

of course not. and in what way did i say or imply that?

Yeah it's easy to blame when you're sitting behind a computer 60 or 70 years later. And it's also easy to whitewash it all from the same vantage point.

if that is a general statement, i'd agree.

hmmmmmm was i defending anyone? no. if you are implying a subtext that a) i didn't intend, B) as i read it, isn't there at all in the post, then feel free to put whatever words in my mouth you wish, if it makes you happy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

he didn't clarify anything .... he claimed that he hadn't blamed them

as read it, in his clarification / recession / whatever, he claimed he didn't blame them equally not that they were free of blame.

assuming that is what he is/was saying, i'd tend to agree. the US, Britain et al ARE worthy of some blame. possibly people didn't want to believe it, but it WAS in the news, at least until the actual war started. and the US, for example, had strict quotas on refugees.

well my reading of his post is that he is implying (maybe even stating) that the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians were complict in the holocaust .... i don't agree !!

as i read (the second) post USA, USSR et al were not complicit so much as a) they knew about it and B) therefore are as worthy of blame as (for example) the modern US/Britain etc are in, say, Rwanda, where they also did nothing.

and as for flogging straw men ... sorry for stepping on ur turf !!!

that was so witty you needed exclamation points? impressive.

as for what any of us would have done during the holocaust .... impossible to say .... some may have fought against it, some may have ignored it and some may have joined in !!!

it is impossible to say, which was my point. although it was directed more at any would-be heroes:

it deserves to be hunted down and blotted out way more than any poisonous snakes, and the people/country that allowed/participated in it need to understand what it is in their national character that allowed it to happen. same with the Japanese. SIX MILLION! i couldn't kill six million flies. it boggles the mind.

who seems to suggest that whatever's in the German national character (and the khmer national character, etc) that allowed it to happen is somehow separate from human nature and unique to those rogue ethnicities.

not to put words in his mouth (but i will anyway) he seems to imply that, had he been German at the time, he would have done something besides, stick his head in the sand, get on the train to the camps, or 'follow orders.' granted, steevolution is prone to hyperbole, but... anyone who thinks they'd have been a hero should see "Shoah." a 9 hour documentary by Claude Lanzmann about the Holocaust. it's all interviews--including survivors, AND guards at Auschwitz etc.

it's really, really comforting to think that monsters like Hitler have something essentially different about them, isn't it? or that i'ts a quality of a particular "national character," perhaps. and the ones who stood by and said nothing are essentially different from any of us.

to my eye history seems to suggest that there's something volatile and dangerous in HUMAN nature, not the national character of a few isolated monster-producing states.

so Lobs? is this a 'whitewash' i'm doing?

coz what i *thought* i DID was challenge any and all who believe they'd stick their neck out and be a hero if this sort of thing were happening in their country right now, to ask themselves HONESTLY how they'd respond. if anyone interprets this as a) whitewashing anything or B) excusing ANYONE'S actions (or inaction) i have either not expressed myself clearly, that person will need to learn to read, or BOTH.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for the specific facts of both of my posts, I stick by them, I spent a lot of time studying that particular period of contemporary history and would be glad to back up my facts with credible sources if needed. For exemple, there were only 5 (or 6 depending on the sources) extermination camps: Auschwitz, Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Majdanek and Treblinka, all of them were located in Poland. There were only concentration camps in Germany. The images you saw are likely from Bergen-Belsen or Mathausen, both were extremely hard concentration camps, but not extermination camps.

You are correct in that Bergen-Belsen and Mauthausen are classified as concentration camps and not as extermination camps. The only difference seems to be that in former people were worked to death, or near death before being killed, while in the latter they were just killed. That's kind of splitting hairs, isn't it?

it depends on if they intended to kill them by working them to death. i believe that they DID intend to work them to death (anyone who has followed the whole thread might have noticed that i tend to believe Albert Speer was implicated in the Holocaust).

looking at the Japanese' cruelty to POWs, i'd say that in building the 'death railway' they weren't trying to systematically kill off POWs but rather build a railway, and didn't care who died doing it. still quite evil but not quite to the level of systematically killing off an ethnicity (or sexual orientation, etc).

Nonetheless, Mauthausen had gas chambers, and by some accounts 180,000 people died there. Some put the figure at 36,000. At Bergen-Belsen, thousands of corpses were piled high when Allied troops entered. Something like 50,000 prisoners died there during the final months of the war.

to belabor a grim and depressing subject, where they killed or did they die of starvation, disease etc? i was under the impression it was (mostly) the latter. Ann Frank died at Bergen-Belsen (of typhus).

I'm not enjoying this as you are, and see no need for round two. The points have been made.

still, it's worthwhile making people aware of it. i wasn't aware Mathausen had gas chambers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you feel that the German knew, you should feel the same way about the American, the French, the British the Russian and the Italians. They all had access to about the same amount of information.

one tiny little minor point .... all of those fought against the nazis in WW2 (yes even the italians .... eventually), helping beat the nazis and bringing the war and holocaust to an end !!! just in case anybody had forgot !!!

there was also a vigourous debate about whether or not to bomb the camps, but they were never bombed !!

one other tiny little point: i'm not sure about the french, italians or russians but the US and Britain definitely turned away jewish refugees. as far as i know, this was before the war, and thus before the systematic genocide. still...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...