Jump to content

culture, religion and language


LIEBE
 Share

Recommended Posts

In Western Protestant countries we expect people to show integrity, accountability, honesty, responsibility, I am not saying this is always achieved, but this is what we see as ideals. As a result Scandinavian and other Northern European Protestant countries have stable and effective governments.

If we now look at Catholic countries, Italy, Spain, and most of Central and Southern America, we frequently see unstable governments, civil unrest and revolutions. Integrity, accountability, honesty, responsibility, has been replaced with self interest and corruption.

What is the difference then between a Protestant and a Catholic?

A Protestant is taught to be responsible to God for his sins, it is between him and his God. A Catholic however, no matter how bad his sins can go to confession, do a penance and be absolved. The Catholic priest has the power to forgive any sinful deed just by imposing what he deems to be an appropriate penance. Throughout history, for rich people this penance has usually been in the form of a donation to the Church.

So to a rich Catholic there is no need to be virtuous, you can simply buy your way out of your sins and go to Heaven when you die.

Is this not exactly what we see in Thailand, is not the same philosophy at work here? If I do something morally wrong, no problem, just "make merit". And what does making merit mean to a Thai, why simply giving money to the Church, in this case the Wat or Temple.

So just like a Catholic, a Thai does not need integrity, accountability, honesty, responsibility, He can simply make merit to balance the book of life.

Perhaps corruption is not the real problem in Thailand but merely a symptom. Perhaps the real problem is the concept of "Making merit".

source: http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36/2008/10/16/entry-1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 weeks later...
  • Replies 58
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

In Western Protestant countries we expect people to show integrity, accountability, honesty, responsibility, I am not saying this is always achieved, but this is what we see as ideals. As a result Scandinavian and other Northern European Protestant countries have stable and effective governments.

If we now look at Catholic countries, Italy, Spain, and most of Central and Southern America, we frequently see unstable governments, civil unrest and revolutions. Integrity, accountability, honesty, responsibility, has been replaced with self interest and corruption.

What is the difference then between a Protestant and a Catholic?

A Protestant is taught to be responsible to God for his sins, it is between him and his God. A Catholic however, no matter how bad his sins can go to confession, do a penance and be absolved. The Catholic priest has the power to forgive any sinful deed just by imposing what he deems to be an appropriate penance. Throughout history, for rich people this penance has usually been in the form of a donation to the Church.

So to a rich Catholic there is no need to be virtuous, you can simply buy your way out of your sins and go to Heaven when you die.

Is this not exactly what we see in Thailand, is not the same philosophy at work here? If I do something morally wrong, no problem, just "make merit". And what does making merit mean to a Thai, why simply giving money to the Church, in this case the Wat or Temple.

So just like a Catholic, a Thai does not need integrity, accountability, honesty, responsibility, He can simply make merit to balance the book of life.

Perhaps corruption is not the real problem in Thailand but merely a symptom. Perhaps the real problem is the concept of "Making merit".

source: http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/anterian36/2008/10/16/entry-1

whatthe.JPG

Wow!!! Just when I thought I'd seen it all on TF, You managed (unconsciously), in just one uneducated, racist post, to explain both why Catholics and Protestants have been at each other's throat for hundreds of years and why Christianity is now in steady decline. And you somehow managed to include the Thai as well in this messed up vision of yours! I'm speechless!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow!!! Just when I thought I'd seen it all on TF, You managed (unconsciously), in just one uneducated, racist post, to explain both why Catholics and Protestants have been at each other's throat for hundreds of years and why Christianity is now in steady decline. And you somehow managed to include the Thai as well in this messed up vision of yours! I'm speechless!

Errr it's a quote... referenced at the bottom.

It's a provocative statement designed to start a discussion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sweden has the highest percentage of atheists/agnostics in the world. This is followed by [buddhist] Vietnam. Denmark and Norway follow. Japan is next. Then the Czech Republic and Finland.

One might as well argue that absence of god-belief is the explanation for the lack of corruption you find in the Northern European countries, and that Protestantism is irrelevant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow!!! Just when I thought I'd seen it all on TF, You managed (unconsciously), in just one uneducated, racist post, to explain both why Catholics and Protestants have been at each other's throat for hundreds of years and why Christianity is now in steady decline. And you somehow managed to include the Thai as well in this messed up vision of yours! I'm speechless!

Errr it's a quote... referenced at the bottom.

It's a provocative statement designed to start a discussion.

Well, I like provocative statements (or quotes) just as much as the next guy. But there's a fine line between provocative and just plain dumb, and that fine line has definitely been crossed on this one.

Eg. Would you consider it ok for TFers to post anti semitic material on the site to start a discussion on the holocaust? or from the Ku Klux Kan to get started on a discussion about the status of african americans?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow!!! Just when I thought I'd seen it all on TF, You managed (unconsciously), in just one uneducated, racist post, to explain both why Catholics and Protestants have been at each other's throat for hundreds of years and why Christianity is now in steady decline. And you somehow managed to include the Thai as well in this messed up vision of yours! I'm speechless!

Errr it's a quote... referenced at the bottom.

It's a provocative statement designed to start a discussion.

Well, I like provocative statements (or quotes) just as much as the next guy. But there's a fine line between provocative and just plain dumb, and that fine line has definitely been crossed on this one.

Eg. Would you consider it ok for TFers to post anti semitic material on the site to start a discussion on the holocaust? or from the Ku Klux Kan to get started on a discussion about the status of african americans?

Why not?

If you quote someone and reference them, why not use that as a sounding board?

It doesn't mean the OP agrees with the sentiment, in fact, usually the reverse, but it does make for an interesting topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

About making ?merit? in Thailand, I feel like we use it in a wrong way. I don?t know what is the real meaning of it. Did Lord Buddha mention anything about ?merit?? It?s more like tradition thing and some kind of ignorant belief.

?There is a crack in everything, that's why the lights get in.? : Leonard Cohen.

P'Nicky kha, yes some Thai ppl get the wrong way, after I post my comment pls don't say i'm ¤ÅÑè§ÈÒʹҹà cuz that's not true... in my life I went to the church more than "Wat". but I do believe in philosophy of buddha.

Making Merit, if you mean the Thai word "Tamboon" isn't about giving money nor giving food to the monk and poor people. cuz that's called Tamtaan ·Ó·Ò¹

Boon ºØ­ is from Pali language "Pun" »Ø­ means clear our mind, make our mind clean, which mean taking out our passion, emotion, feelings, greedy, selfish. Plus make something "worshipful"

So real "Tamboon" or making merit has 3 elements

1. Tan ·Ò¹ Giving Sharing, those are all about intention and purpose.

2. Sil ÈÕÅ scruple, moral, no exploit, no encroachment.

3. Pawana ÀÒÇ¹Ò Practice our mind... make it better and stronger.

So sad that someone believe "tamboon" by only giving money can make them rich and rich...as I said before.. it's about their intention. cuz when you give something to someone.. the result that you will get at that moment is happiness in heart... not gain money in your hands. think that way is sign of greedy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sweden has the highest percentage of atheists/agnostics in the world. This is followed by [buddhist] Vietnam. Denmark and Norway follow. Japan is next. Then the Czech Republic and Finland.

One might as well argue that absence of god-belief is the explanation for the lack of corruption you find in the Northern European countries, and that Protestantism is irrelevant.

Ahh yes one of my friend is Swedish, he said he was atheist, and another one is British he said the same way... I didn't ask them why. Thks for the info.

but i'm just wondering, why they celebrate Christmas?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

P'Nicky kha, yes some Thai ppl get the wrong way, after I post my comment pls don't say i'm ¤ÅÑè§ÈÒʹҹà cuz that's not true... in my life I went to the church more than "Wat". but I do believe in philosophy of buddha.

Why would I say that la kha, Nong 1?

When I explain something about buddism, they always said that way kha. When I said something bad about Thai monks cuz they did something not right, ppl said that too...

Making Merit, if you mean the Thai word "Tamboon" isn't about give money nor give food to the monk and poor people. cuz that's called Tamtaan ·Ó·Ò¹

Boon ºØ­ is from Pali language "Pun" »Ø­ means clear our mind, make our mind clean, which mean taking out our passion, emotion, feelings, greedy, selfish. Plus make something "worshipful"

So real "Tamboon" or making merit has 3 elements

1. Tan ·Ò¹ Giving Sharing, those are all about intention and purpose.

2. Sil ÈÕÅ scruple, moral, no exploit, no encroachment.

3. Pawana ÀÒÇ¹Ò Practice our mind... make it better and stronger.

I think you got ?Tamboon? right. The other kind of ?tamboon?, according to my professor at CMU, is when you think of someone in a positive way and wish the best for them.

yep... so Tamboon isn't about "Things" it's about "Mind"

Darn I should be a "Nun" :P but I can't do hmm meditation, i can't stay still more than 10 mins.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow!!! Just when I thought I'd seen it all on TF, You managed (unconsciously), in just one uneducated, racist post, to explain both why Catholics and Protestants have been at each other's throat for hundreds of years and why Christianity is now in steady decline. And you somehow managed to include the Thai as well in this messed up vision of yours! I'm speechless!

Errr it's a quote... referenced at the bottom.

It's a provocative statement designed to start a discussion.

Well, I like provocative statements (or quotes) just as much as the next guy. But there's a fine line between provocative and just plain dumb, and that fine line has definitely been crossed on this one.

Eg. Would you consider it ok for TFers to post anti semitic material on the site to start a discussion on the holocaust? or from the Ku Klux Kan to get started on a discussion about the status of african americans?

Why not?

If you quote someone and reference them, why not use that as a sounding board?

It doesn't mean the OP agrees with the sentiment, in fact, usually the reverse, but it does make for an interesting topic.

I totally disagree. To begin with, if you really mean to post something in order to "provoque a debate" you should have the common sense of stating it clearly and not just reference the text. For all we know, that person could have posted this diatribe because she was in agreement with its writer and wanted to disseminate his ideas rather than to provoque a constructive debate. From the info that I've received from other TFers, this seems to be the case.

Then, on a more conceptual level, every social collectivity is willing to recognize that there must be some limitations set to freedom of speech in order to ensure basic respect for human dignity and other human rights. According to your preceeding statement, pretty much everything would be fair game in a public forum.

Again, I'm usually a big advocate of freedom of expression so long as things are done with a minimum of intelligence in order to foster a constructive public debate. In this particular situation, the original post what simply a bad attack on people belonging to certain ethnic and religious groups. This is were I draw the line.

BTW when someone post a bigoted piece of information like that on the net, there is only one "provocative debate" that we can possibly get into: Are you for or against racism? Personally I'm against it, in any shape, color or form...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some good points have been raised, and I think most agree that the OP should have stated what their view was on the 'article' in order for posters to have an idea what they were commenting on.

Certainly the 'article' over generalises on what the differences between Catholocism and Protestantism are, and what effects they have on the nature of a nation and how they are perceived by others and perceive themselves.

To then draw comparisons with Thailand and/or Buddhism from such over generalisation is patronising at worst, naive at best.

What has to be remembered that Chrisitianity, once it had outgrown its initial spiritual roots, became very much a religion organised along the lines of an Empire, and that is in both a literal and metaphorical sense.

As with any Empire, there was a central authority (Rome, then Constantinople then Rome again) trying to exert its authority, rules and interpretations of doctrine across a vast geographical area, where many different intepretations of doctrine had developed, often in tandem with local pagan/animist beliefs.

And as with any Empire, dissent between 'territories' and their central authority were commonplace.

This continued until the 16th Century (with continued but suppressed dissent) until Martin Luther challenged Catolicism and (allegedly) nailed his theses against Catholicsm and the power of the Holy Roman Empire to a church door in Germany.

The main principle of the Protestant Reformation was that only God had the right and the power to grant salvation (the absolution granted by priests at confession).

This sparked war and conflict throughout Europe, led to revolutions, invasions, virtual genocide of some communities, as well as the growth of anti-semitism to monstrous proportions (Luther was an avowed anti-semite and encouraged the destruction or seizing of their property and also killing them)

Even the recent Irish conflict was rooted in this Catholic-Protestant divide, although in the latter stages, most participants only paid lip service to any sort of religious beliefs.

Any religion will have schisms and dissent. Islam has the Sunnis and Shi'ites, Christianity has Catholics and Protestants though unsure if any Buddhists have had such violent splits as the others.

Even last week, on The Temple of the Mount in Jerusalem, a site sacred to both Christianity and Islam, Armenian and Greek Orthodox monks came to blows over access to a site.

And when you go back to 'the beginning' (so to speak) both Islam and Chrisitanity have Abraham as one of their original and most revered figures, yet step forward a couple of millenia or 3, and these 2 religions are now at each other's throats!

On a lighter note, I am sure everyone played 'chinese whispers' as a child; by the time the phrase gets to the end of the line or room, it has completley changed. Think of Christianity in that way. The original message has been misheard, mistranslated (esp the Old Testament) and manipulated by men more interested in their own gain rather than God's, that what you hear today probably bears little resemblance to what was originally said or meant

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An interesting event related to the current topic at hand. This occurred last week and of course the religous right in this country has flown off of the handle demanding limitations on freedom of speech.... One rep even had the nerve to say its purpose is to try and convert people to atheism and that Christians would never do that! LMAO!! And he said it with a straight face!!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,450445,00.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An interesting event related to the current topic at hand. This occurred last week and of course the religous right in this country has flown off of the handle demanding limitations on freedom of speech.... One rep even had the nerve to say its purpose is to try and convert people to atheism and that Christians would never do that! LMAO!! And he said it with a straight face!!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,450445,00.html

Great add. After all its being good they are saying god wants right so why do they care how its done. Fascist they are :twisted:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow!!! Just when I thought I'd seen it all on TF, You managed (unconsciously), in just one uneducated, racist post, to explain both why Catholics and Protestants have been at each other's throat for hundreds of years and why Christianity is now in steady decline. And you somehow managed to include the Thai as well in this messed up vision of yours! I'm speechless!

Errr it's a quote... referenced at the bottom.

It's a provocative statement designed to start a discussion.

Well, I like provocative statements (or quotes) just as much as the next guy. But there's a fine line between provocative and just plain dumb, and that fine line has definitely been crossed on this one.

Eg. Would you consider it ok for TFers to post anti semitic material on the site to start a discussion on the holocaust? or from the Ku Klux Kan to get started on a discussion about the status of african americans?

Why not?

If you quote someone and reference them, why not use that as a sounding board?

It doesn't mean the OP agrees with the sentiment, in fact, usually the reverse, but it does make for an interesting topic.

I totally disagree. To begin with, if you really mean to post something in order to "provoque a debate" you should have the common sense of stating it clearly and not just reference the text. For all we know, that person could have posted this diatribe because she was in agreement with its writer and wanted to disseminate his ideas rather than to provoque a constructive debate. From the info that I've received from other TFers, this seems to be the case.

Then, on a more conceptual level, every social collectivity is willing to recognize that there must be some limitations set to freedom of speech in order to ensure basic respect for human dignity and other human rights. According to your preceeding statement, pretty much everything would be fair game in a public forum.

Again, I'm usually a big advocate of freedom of expression so long as things are done with a minimum of intelligence in order to foster a constructive public debate. In this particular situation, the original post what simply a bad attack on people belonging to certain ethnic and religious groups. This is were I draw the line.

BTW when someone post a bigoted piece of information like that, there is only one "provocative debate" that we can possibly get into: Are you for or against racism? Personally I'm against it, in any shape, color or form...

Boy oh Boy, you sure are in favor of "boundaries" on freedom arn't you?

Yes, Everything should be open for discussion, period!

What the hell country are you from?

I myself was born in the USA, land of the free and yes, free to discuss "anything" including sex, religion, the government and allowed to protest and talk in public about anything.

Wow, what a concept.

It is true that the OP "should add a disclaimer" at the beginning to say that the found this and it is for discussion.

Why did you not ask the OP these questions yourself before trying to impose sensorship. You could PM them or ask in the forum.

If I read it, i don't get your same message as the OP was referring to the current climate of "do anything" and be forgiven in Thailand and comparing it to other religions of western culture What is wrong with that?

I personally think it is a good discussion. (...)

:roll: I was really hoping that I wouldn't have to do this...

1) Don't shoot the messenger. Try to answer the post.

Well geez... guess what jomama, I have some interesting news for you. You are responsable for what you post on a public forum. If you post something dumb enough that it can't even be used as a basis for a good discussion, you deserve to be called out on it. For exemple, given the astonishing amount of bs you've posted on TF since you joined it's totally ok for me to call you a prick... prick.

2) What the hell country are you from? I myself was born in the USA, land of the free ... blah, blah...

Sorry, this one was so good that I just had to bold it. I forgot that the US have such a good record on the topic of freedom of speech. :roll: Maybe you should try to educate yourself a bit and learn about the censorship policies applied by the american government inside of this wonderful land of the free, you could have a real epiphany... Anyway you're just lucky I'm answering this before Beej, he would have had a field day with this.

3) It is true that the OP "should add a disclaimer" at the beginning to say that the found this and it is for discussion. Why did you not ask the OP these questions yourself before trying to impose sensorship. You could PM them or ask in the forum.

Wow! first time that we almost agree on something on TF ... Almost.

I shouldn't have to ask a person for additional info when I read a post on a forum. I should be able to take what is posted at face value. Incidentally, several people who knew the OP contacted me to tell me what a screwed up person she was. BTW, I did not attempt to impose censorship on anyone. I just gave my personal opinion on both the OP and her post. Take it or leave it. I only mentionned the topic of censorship at a later stage in a discussion with English_Bob, and I never said that this particular forum topic should be censored.

4) I personally think it is a good discussion

Well, coming from somebody with your kind of taste for total bs, this actually reinforce my initial feeling that nothing good would come out of this particular forum.

I had promised myself not to waste anymore energy on your case, but the complete lack of depth and logic in your argumentation just made it way too tempting...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's not a "provocative debate" - that's the status quo.

There's no debate possible on it because it's illegal.

Are you a police-officer perhaps?

Not being able to discuss an opinion reveals an inability to deal with a difference, in this case a different opinion.

This is what you share with the racist you need to criticize so expressively.

A racist can't deal with the difference in skin-color and appearance.

Now criticizing racists is easy because they're dumb asses in general.

I don't know if it'll work here though because everyone's so smart on this site.

Your only trouble is this post wasn't even about race until you pulled it in that direction. It was a hypothesis about how religion influences certain business practices.

Discussing whether any of it makes sense isn't a dumb exercise, except in the way you handle it perhaps.

And if you want my opinion, I hate people who don't like chocolate.

And I like somtam - but not on every party.

Etc.

All more useless opinions in what needs to be a non-debate.

1) Are you a police officer perhaps?

Nope, do I need a badge to tell my personal opinion about an uneducated forum post?

2) Not being able to discuss an opinion reveals an inability to deal with a difference, in this case a different opinion.

Wrong again, I just didn't feel like spending the afternoon discussing with a person of such limited intellect that she would actually post something like this. BTW I think you are confusing "difference" with "ignorance" here.

3) Your only trouble is this post wasn't even about race until you pulled it in that direction. It was a hypothesis about how religion influences certain business practices.

Ok, I'll give you one thing, the concept of "race" is so controversial in itself that we could debate for a while deciding what constitute a race. But speaking of people from different countries and religions in such a derogatory unfounded manner is certainly discriminatory and slanderous if it isn't racist. BTW, the way I read it, the post was about how virtuous North European protestants were and how unreliable/flawed south european catholics (mainly Latins) were. Then, the author decided to stick it to a few other races and countries (the Thai, South America, etc.) for the fun of being really nasty.

4) Discussing whether any of it makes sense isn't a dumb exercise, except in the way you handle it perhaps.

Well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. My opinion is that it takes a real dummy to spend quality time discussing such a silly post. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

. Fascist they are :twisted:

Gollum speaks!!!!! :lol:

for my choice of words you chastise me :shock: Gollum is more befitting those who hide in the cave of religious hypocrisy.

Eagle my friend, you misunderstood my post; It was merely an observation of the gollumlike syntax, not a criticism of your philosophy (which I usually agree with)

Agree totally with the point, just a bourbon inspired observation on how you said it!! 8)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the OP was just pointing out that buying ones way out of sin or wrong doing doesn't work or isn't a good thing. Amazing how people will go to war about being in good with god Totally amazing and scary :shock:

Well, if that is the case Eagle, I can think of about a thousand other more respectful ways the OP could have put that particular subject on the table.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

. Fascist they are :twisted:

Gollum speaks!!!!! :lol:

for my choice of words you chastise me :shock: Gollum is more befitting those who hide in the cave of religious hypocrisy.

Eagle my friend, you misunderstood my post; It was merely an observation of the gollumlike syntax, not a criticism of your philosophy (which I usually agree with)

Agree totally with the point, just a bourbon inspired observation on how you said it!! 8)

realized that just too serious response, although I am inside my cave today and kinda pale.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the OP was just pointing out that buying ones way out of sin or wrong doing doesn't work or isn't a good thing. Amazing how people will go to war about being in good with god Totally amazing and scary :shock:

Well, if that is the case Eagle, I can think of about a thousand other more respectful ways the OP could have put that particular subject on the table.

The way supposedly religious people have acted through out history and how sooo much love is supposed to be involved I think any self respecting christian should listen to a young Thai girls opinion and respect her right to it. Saying your of some faith doesn't put you in gods corner beyond the relm of mortals. Its a new day and holding up a cross doesn't make all get down on their knees anymore no matter what your choice of worship may be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

god bless George Carlin !!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...