EQUALITY.... APPARENTLY

[drlovelife8]

10. A husband has sex with his wife, as a plow goes into a field.

The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says:

Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur?an, Oxford UP, 2004)

9. Husbands are a degree above their wives.

The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:

. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A?La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur?an, vol. 1, p. 165)

8. A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female.

The Quran in Sura 4:11 says:

The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)

7. A woman?s testimony counts half of a man?s testimony.

The Quran in Sura 2:282 says:

And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205).

6. A wife may remarry her ex?husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her.

The Quran in Sura 2:230 says:

And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. [in that case] there is no harm if they [the first couple] remarry . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 165)

5. Slave?girls are sexual property for their male owners.

The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:

And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands [as prisoners of war] . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319).

4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:3 says:

And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305)

3. A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:129 says:

It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, [in order to satisfy the dictates of Divine Law] do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 381)

2. Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded).

The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)

1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls.

The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:

65:1 O Prophet, when you [and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting?period and count the waiting?period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)

[Stramash]

Just to even things up (since thread is called equality lol)

(no nine year olds but nice bit of father-daughter incest bible stylee)

"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. 1

"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33.

"And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her." Ecclesiastes 7:26, from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament

1 Timothy chapter 2: (instead of Timothy, should this not be taken from 1 Daniel_boy Chapter 2?? )

Also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.

In Deuteronomy 22:28-29 we find this: "If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman?s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives?

(oh and throw in a bit of good old fashioned incest)

Genesis, Chapter 19, Verses 30-38.

30. And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

31. And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

37. And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

38. And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Ben-ammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day

[sunsnow]

9. Husbands are a degree above their wives.

The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:

. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A?La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur?an, vol. 1, p. 165)

Now, Quran does not say that, what you are doing is quoting from explanation book, not from Quaran. This is the verse:

[2:229] And the divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the Last Day; and their husbands have the greater right to take them back during that period, provided they desire reconciliation. And they (the women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in equity; but men have a degree of advantage above them. And Allah is Mighty and Wise.

This talks about similar things as were in Bible, conditions of divorce. And do you see, it says women have similar rights. But in the end, man, like in Bible, is the head of the household. Actually similar to many non-muslim and non-judeao-christian societies.

8. A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female.

The Quran in Sura 4:11 says:

The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)

4:12] Allah commands you concerning your children; a male shall have as much as the share of two females; but if their be females only, numbering more than two, then they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased leave; and if there be one, she shall have half. And his parents each of them a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a child, but if he have no child and his parents be his heirs, then his mother shall have a third; and if he has brothers and sisters, then his mother shall have a sixth, after the payment of any bequests he may have bequeathed or of debts. Your fathers and your children; you know not which of them is more beneficent to you. This fixing of portions is from Allah. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.

Typical to societies that were based on traveling from place to place and in general farming. Men are the continuing of the family, the money stays that way "in the family" when women marry to other men. Hence the keeping of money "in the family" by allocating most valuables to the male heirs. Besides, after all, it could be that women were getting nothing but instead they got some part.

7. A woman?s testimony counts half of a man?s testimony.

The Quran in Sura 2:282 says:

And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205).

This was indeed interesting view on seeing women.

5. Slave?girls are sexual property for their male owners.

The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:

And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands [as prisoners of war] . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319).

That is misrepresentation of that part of the Quran. It deals with the matters of marriage, ownership of the women. And what it actually says is this:

"--, marrying them properly and not committing fornication. And for the benefit you receive from them, give them their dowries, as fixed, and there is no blame on you what you do by mutual agreement after the fixing of the dowry. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, Wise."

You are supposed to marry them properly. Not use them as sex slaves. So you left out the next sentence which cleared out the bigger picture.

4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:3 says:

...But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305)

And so? I would like to point out that it is only if the man has the means to provide for all those women. It is not like every man goes around marrying that many.

3. A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:129 says:

It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, [in order to satisfy the dictates of Divine Law] do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 381)

Again, it would be fruitful to quote more around the said verse:

"[4:129] And if a women fears ill treatment or indifference from her husband, it shall be no sin that they be suitably reconciled to each other; and reconciliation is best. And people are prone to covetousness. And if you do good and are righteous, surely Allah is Aware of what you do.

[4:130] And you cannot keep perfect balance between wives, however much you may desire it. But incline not wholly to one so that you leave the other like a thing suspended. And if you are reconciled and act righteously, surely Allah is Most Forgiving, and Merciful."

It says here for example that if woman fears ill treatment, there should be reconciliation. And that is the BEST. NOW if your wifes actually get into fights between each others, that is how I would read this, then let there be decision who shall go. But again, reconciliation much happen, because also Allah is forgiving and merciful. So it is not just "dump and leave them" but first reconciliation.

Also sure 65:1,2 speaks about how in case of divorce there is waiting period when the woman is allowed to live in the house, not chased away unless she is doing something indecent. In this way both can try to solve their issues and get back together.

2. Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded).

The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)

It would be again useful to investigate other translations too:

[4:35] Men are guardians over women because Allah has made some of them excel others, and because men spend on them of their wealth. So virtuous women are obedient, and guard the secrets of their husbands with Allah's protection. And as for those on whose part you fear disobedience, admonish them and keep away from them in their beds and chastise them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely, Allah is High and Great.

[4:36] And if you fear a breach between them, then appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they (the arbiters) desire reconciliation, Allah will effect it between them. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

Here first of all: men are guardians of women. And that Allah has made women excel. And men spend a lot of money on the family, (compare this to the studies that show actually about the pay gap between sexes that mens income is subventing womens income so that actually women have equal or higher incomes in families than the men=.

In this translation it is clear that the family should be peaceful and support each others.

1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls.

The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:

65:1 O Prophet, when you [and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting?period and count the waiting?period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)

As said earlier, verse 1 is quite nice as it shows how Allah wants the husband and wife to solve their issues so that woman is not without home during this "prescribed waiting period".

Is this really about prepub girls? I mean the one part there says "same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet". Other parts give waiting period because if woman is missing her periods she might be pregnant and that might change the situation. But that "not menstruated as yet" part is indeed interesting. If only I was not going to bed now, I could google a little bit of how that verse is understood.

This is what I found concerning menstruation, exactly what I thought also:

"All the standard translations refer only to whether the wife is menstruating or not, without any age implication. Muhammad Asad?s translation reads: ?Now for such of your women as are beyond the age of monthly courses, as well as for such as do not have any courses, their waiting period ? if you have any doubt about it ? shall be three months? (ya?isna min al mahidi min nisa?ikum in irtabtum). The scholars consider that this is a generic reference to any physiological impediment, whether temporary or permanent. "

Ok, I did some search. What translation is used here is highly problematic translation by Maulana Maududi, head of the fundamentalist movement in Pakistan. Seems that many things here are disputed by muslim scholars who have better understanding of the context and the context of the time when these were written. This relates to for example for the "women as witnesses" part which I quote is explained:

"omen can testify as equals of men in all matters except in commercial transactions. In commercial matters at the time, women were generally less knowledgeable than men, though the Prophet?s only wife until her death after fifteen years of marriage, Khadija, was a superior business woman. Since the general culture at the time tended to restrict women?s roles in business, they were protected from the burden of testifying in such unfamiliar situations by exempting them from responsibility as a sole witness. In accordance with the fundamental principle of Islamic normative law that rules apply only to fulfill their higher purpose, this need for protection and the provision for it no longer apply in the modern world."

I have used the following online Quran:

http://www.alislam.org/quran/

The translation is quite modern language and understandable.

I hope this opens up things to some who are ready to nitpick and quote out of context things from Quran and Bible.

[sunsnow]

"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33.

That is actually part from the bible that Catholics use, not others. If one reads the account of Adam and Eve, you can see that Eve indeed was the first to be lured. But Adam didn't stop the buck there, but went along with his wife. It was not wifes fault. The whole point of this test for the Adam of Eve was according to Genesis, was to test their free WILL! It was not Eve's fault that Adam bit the forbidden fruit. It was Adam's own responsibility. And this is something that many Judeo-Christians never understood and started this blame game. "It is not my fault, it is my wifes fault why I dont find my socks!"

Simple example: A criminal who sells coke gives you a free hit. You OD. Whose fault it was that you took over dose of bad coke? Yours or the coke dealers? The coke dealer is guilty of one crime. The dude getting OD is guilty of stupidity.

In same way, it was not Eves fault. And can't blame woman for the state of human race. Woman was burdened with pains of giving birth and man had to farm the lands with a sweat on his forehead because land was no longer so fertile and easy to grow crops.

Both of them failed the test set up to them according to Bible.

[Stramash]

HATER HATER (OF LEPRECHAUNS)

[Stramash]

but seriously...

you are correct, though am sure if the more tradtionalist and fundamental christians got their way, our version of sharia law wouldn't be far off.

As Marx said; 'religion is the opiate of the people'

The Western world is mainly in recovery; they have been in the main weaned off their opiates though there are still a few with dependency problems and the odd lapse now and again.

The world of Islam is still in the tight grip of addiction and nowhere near the precontemplative stage needed to escape addiction. And, to make things worse, their opiate is stronger; in that they see their holy book as the direct word of God dictated to his servant Mohammed.

While Christianity has what is, in effect, a collection of short stories edited by man and occasionally mistranslated. (sorry to mix my metaphors here) .

[Stramash]

the masses...opiate of the masses...get it right dammit!

.

"Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes"

In its original German which when correctly translated says; religion is the opiate of the people

I did get it right dammit

did you hear the one about the liberal Muslim hating whiskey drinking Republican who tried to correct the lefty Christian hating whiskey drinking socialist??

[Stramash]

i apologise...

for Republican substitute redneck :wink:

[babyoiy]

I gonna need to read this.... There is a chance that I may convert...

[Stramash]

I gonna need to read this.... There is a chance that I may convert...

...to?

[babyoiy]

LOL... Pam Anderson won't like this...

6. A wife may remarry her ex?husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her.

The Quran in Sura 2:230 says:

And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. [in that case] there is no harm if they [the first couple] remarry . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 165)

..... I think there are some conflict in these 2 points

4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:3 says:

And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305)

3. A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:129 says:

It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, [in order to satisfy the dictates of Divine Law] do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 381)

:shock:

1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls.

Can someone tell me what this mean, "highhandedness"? ((Mr.Longman doesnt recognised this word))

@Iain, to be a muslim... (there is a lil chance for now) :wink:

[Stramash]

LOL... Pam Anderson won't like this...

6. A wife may remarry her ex?husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her.

The Quran in Sura 2:230 says:

And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. [in that case] there is no harm if they [the first couple] remarry . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 165)

..... I think there are some conflict in these 2 points

4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:3 says:

And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305)

3. A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:129 says:

It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, [in order to satisfy the dictates of Divine Law] do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 381)

Can someone tell me what this mean, "highhandedness"? ((Mr.Longman doesnt recognised this word))

@Iain, to be a muslim... (there is a lil chance for now) :wink:

Nah you don't wanna do that; convert to Wicca!! We get to dance around naked at rituals and drink mushroom ale!!!

[babyoiy]

mushroom ale? Is it stronger than mushroom tea?

I have never try any.. but would love to.... but again my friend said I cant handle it.. :roll:

[Stramash]

mushroom ale? Is it stronger than mushroom tea?

I have never try any.. but would love to.... but again my friend said I cant handle it.. :roll:

can be as strong as you want it - mead the best ; very sweet and flavoured with honey to mask the bitterness

[babyoiy]

I gonna need to read this.... There is a chance that I may convert...

If you do, let me know. I'll send you your first burqa. Just tell me what color you want. They come in green, pink, light blue, black, white and red.

The birdcage is optional.

oi! I dont have to wear this..... many muslim guys wear cloths just like non-muslim wear (no that long dress, im not sure what it callled)..

I like the similar outfit Iain posted in show off yourself in bikini thread tho'

[babyoiy]

mushroom ale? Is it stronger than mushroom tea?

I have never try any.. but would love to.... but again my friend said I cant handle it.. :roll:

can be as strong as you want it - mead the best ; very sweet aand flavoured with honey to mask the bitterness

Sound good, u gonna bring some for me in March? :wink:

[Stramash]

you mean the burkini??

Would certainly keep Daniel happy if every woman dressed like this on beach...suppose it does cut down on harmful uv rays

personally I think this one would suit far better :wink:

[Stramash]

I gonna need to read this.... There is a chance that I may convert...

If you do, let me know. I'll send you your first burqa. Just tell me what color you want. They come in green, pink, light blue, black, white and red.

.

tut tut, so behind the times, the burqa had now gone all designer chic;

[zeusbheld]

The question, though, is how are these books put into practice. How do these books and beliefs affect the world around us.

Now.

Not one hundred or one thousand years ago.

Some complain about Christianity and Christians as if they are some kind of threat. As far as I know, no Christian group who wishes to re-take the Holy Land from the Muslims and/or Jews has taken to using global terrorism as a means of persuasion. Christians aren't blowing up buildings in Turkey in an attempt to re-take the Haga Sophia.

Now a handful of Christians have burned down or bombed abortion clinics ten years ago or so. Pat Robertson did say that Hugo Chavez should be taken out. lol But relatively speaking, Christianity has been pretty much a toothless monster.

The same can not be said of Islam.

Women in Christian oriented nations have equal rights. They can choose to dress as they please. They can rid themselves of their violent and abusive husbands. They can work if they so desire.

This is not true in the lands of Islam. Those places where Islam is law. The man has the say in women's lives. Women wear burqas in Afghanistan to protect the mans honor. Women can't drive in this or that country. Women must go covered by law in Saudi Arabia.

I'm sure some over emotional individual will get on here and cry HATER HATER. But this is the truth of Islam. I don't care what Muhammad intended. Islam as practiced is about as equal as the Dred Scott Decision when it comes to womens rights.

i'd agree that christians have been largely a (semi) toothless monster, but only because.... they're not in charge (unless you count talk radio, which shouldn't count for much). the last time i can think of off the top of my head that extreme Christian fundamentalists were in charge ... the spanish inquisition.

it has sweet **** all to do with the relative merits of islam vs christianity and everything to do with the separation of church and state in the 'secular' west.

btw some things never change; Jefferson was accused of being an atheist.

[babyoiy]

I gonna need to read this.... There is a chance that I may convert...

If you do, let me know. I'll send you your first burqa. Just tell me what color you want. They come in green, pink, light blue, black, white and red.

.

tut tut, so behind the times, the burqa had now gone all designer chic;

No LV one???? Pls pls!

[zeusbheld]

ps unless any of you lot read and write Arabic citing the q'ran is kind of vague at best. there is no official translation from ARabic into .... anything else.

[sunsnow]

Quote:

1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls.

Can someone tell me what this mean, "highhandedness"? ((Mr.Longman doesnt recognised this word))

Do note what I posted earlier.

[luckyphil247]

My disdain for conservatives and the Christian rights is only slightly less than that displayed here for Liberals. Christians get on my nerves. It's just that no one on here defends them. And I don't see them as a threat. They're laughable to me.

Trust me when I say that this Christian is laughing at you

Merry Xmas by the way, hope you enjoy your Christmas Eve with so many people signing up to your event, looks like it'll be standing room only ( i.e in the cubicle )

[philomina200]

My disdain for conservatives and the Christian rights is only slightly less than that displayed here for Liberals. Christians get on my nerves. It's just that no one on here defends them. And I don't see them as a threat. They're laughable to me.

Trust me when I say that this Christian is laughing at you

Merry Xmas by the way, hope you enjoy your Christmas Eve with so many people signing up to your event, looks like it'll be standing room only ( i.e in the cubicle )

And that's a very Christian post. Great example for your children to follow someday. And exactly what I mean. Preach values and character and such? Yet display what?

No, it's not the example of Jesus.

Sheesh you're one serioualy deranged know-it-all knobhead aren't you?

So what if you have such a chip on your shoulder over what he hasn't? You feel the need to thrust your own opinions onto everyone else?

Your opinionation is something you should be hiding, not broadcasting to all and sundry.

You appear to have learned nothing more in your time here than an ability to slag others and defend yourself, probably needs you have to make yourself seem better or more worthy than others are.

Try looking inside your own life Mr Perfect, to find the faults you seem so ready to call others for.

You disagree? Then forward your points. Or are you so illiterate that you can't put forward a cohesive argument that you'd rather call names, throw stones and run away?

You're just full of opinionated shite.

[philomina200]

Again. Look back. I've not started the slagging. Not once.

Now. Here you go. You're doing the exact same thing as I have done. Yet, it's OK for you but not for others. :roll:

If they had not thrown the barbs out first, I'd not have engaged them in that manner. But it's the common theme with some. If you don't like what someone types, you attack the poster rather than debating the point.

Instead of calling me "flash gordon" or a bigot or what have you, why not refute what I typed. Wouldn't that be a neat change. If you don't have the time or inclination then rather than type the insults, simply say that you disagree.

I've never slagged anyone on TF without them slagging first.

Some of my opinions are fairly harsh esp. concerning Islam and the regions under it's domain. I don't feel the need to hit the USA since it's already hit by Canucks and Euros on a daily basis for no reason other than they have a spare minute to type something. Funny, how you don't jump in with your offense at opinions in those threads.

Actuially, I did.

Organized religion is what you and I know it to be, exactly that. Someone's brilliant idea to control others who haven't actually learnt what this is really all about.

The premise that one's communication with God or whatever higher being you happen to try and communicate with is something that can be done on an organized basis is the most ridiculous premise of all, those who believe such are fully deserving of the misery they bring to themselves, there is no need to throw more poo on them.