Corruption

[Joecy]

to give support on request, no problem at all,

but trying, to change a culture from outside,

by foreign media, governments and observers,

is the wrong way IMO.

sick of the rotten elements is also Samak Sundaravej,

I heard him every morning on Ch.5-TGN,

but he has a different interpretation, who these rotten elements are.

Of course, Thailand is changing, look, what happend last year;

in Khon Kaen, a canvasser for a Sok Nok Ten TAO candidate was arrested while distributing cash to voters. Ud Malachu admitted he was hired to buy votes for 5,000 baht.

Thats ok, if the change is coming from inside.

[Loburt]

The changes ARE coming from inside. Anyone who is here can see that.

[rafval]

Im starting to think its media control here, the corruption starts right at the top, until the newpapers and internet are freed up everyone can just pretend its not happening.

[farangy]

I like this quote I got from the course " Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Unfortunately this is one maxim that crosses national and cultural barriers.

Perhaps Hobbes was right...

[sunsnow]

Thanks for Loburt on giving analysis and opinion on vote buying and corruption in Thailand. I knew that police can be many times bought, so many farangs do that and they are even tried to extort money by police, so many stories how farangs pay tickets straight to police hands....

But didn't know that also the (whole) political system in Thailand seems to be polluted. Corruption is a disease and should not be tolerated, even if "anyone does it". Because then you never can have an honest change, free speech, equal rights etc... Many of this political and social injustices are so connected...Bribery puts ppl in unequal situations.

And yes, there is fine line sometimes between upfront corruption and tradition of "giving gifts"...for this Japanese school system example, where parents give teacher many times a gift in hope of making their child "look good"...But if this giving of gift does not affect in anyway your childs situation in school, give it or not, then it really cannot imo called bribe, but just old tradition. BUT when you give money or gift and get better grades....well...

Corruption seems to be problem generally in developping countries from the gates of European Union to Asia and South-America. Friend told me how his landlord was driving a car drunk and on a road block was stopped and bought his way out with a bottle of whisky, this happened in Mexico etc etc.. My Romanian friend who has lived in Finland couple of years now, says how he gets sick from his old university mates buying their grades and corrupting professors to get better thesis degrees etc...I know my friend in Asia has "marketing budget" in his companys books, Finnish companies know that they have to "oil the wheels" in Russia...

If everyone just stopped giving those envelopes...And hiding between the explanation of "cultural tradition" or hiding behind "fine line", and not really standing up and sayin "no"..all this keeps the unhealthy habit up and running and the least it does is prevents the situation coming to daylight and to political agenda etc.. This is idealistic sure. But..who says idealism is dead or should be dead?

[MikeAussieGuy]

Now the politicians are at it again on Koh Samui, will it ever stop?

When is enough enough.

[sunsnow]

What has happened?

I read recently on Bangkok Post about Koh Samui, that something like third of property is sold illegally (?), or that sellers didnt have full rights to the lands they were selling.

Buyers beware: government can excersise seasure anytime they want on this kind of property...

On the other hand, since 1990's, it should not have been legal to build or stay overnight at another island, Koh Samet, so, what do you know...(This I read from one guide book. That they tried to make it real natural reserve, untill they noticed after destroying first buildings, that the people had obtained somewhere legal documents to have those buildings there...)

[MikeAussieGuy]

Its all cut from the same wood. I'll try to dig up the articles from the Bangkok Post and post it here for you so you can have a read.

It surfaced over the past week where many of the politicians families were buying land that was deemed not for sale and at laughable prices.

[Chris]

Putting the leading example of corruption in Thailand in jail might be a good start so people do not view corruption as the normal way of life. I once was asked by pollice officers in a big city in the north to pay a fine of 100 baht and sign a receipt inside the station. Since I did not commit any offence I refused to sign my name. They said: Just write something! Make up a name! So I did and all was ok.

Before that some officers were trying to hussle a friend's pub over there for 15,000 baht in tea money. Since all tourists over there stood up with our friend, the lowered it to 10,000, 5,000, ... but we refused as it was not past closing time as they claimed.

We all volunteered to go to the police station. About 12 of us!... After losing face they 'had' to find a 'reason' so we called Tourist Police who came to the rescue. He basically said it was a hassle attempt and they had nowhere to go since they lost face.

He advised in order not to have any problems during our 7 days stay over there to agree to a 'fake' charge so they could 'feel like they did their job and were not on the take. In the end they 'charged' 4 of us with 'drinking alcohol past 11.30pm'. Lol. Since we were helping our friend to counter the hassling by the police... we agreed to pay. 100 baht each.

So in the end they got off with 400 baht, ALL OFFICIAL so in police HQ books, instead of the 15,000 baht they hoped to collect by themselves.

Things really start to go wrong when police officers ask you to make up a fake name inside the station to 'false charges' they devised.

[sunsnow]

Before that some officers were trying to hussle a friend's pub over there for 15,000 baht in tea money. Since all tourists over there stood up with our friend, the lowered it to 10,000, 5,000, ... but we refused as it was not past closing time as they claimed.

We all volunteered to go to the police station. About 12 of us!... After losing face they 'had' to find a 'reason' so we called Tourist Police who came to the rescue. He basically said it was a hassle attempt and they had nowhere to go since they lost face.

He advised in order not to have any problems during our 7 days stay over there to agree to a 'fake' charge so they could 'feel like they did their job and were not on the take.

I think, and some other might think that too, that this is even a bit dangerous, to make such a big fuss out of it (sure, this is damn shame and any democratic government should stop this but maybe a westerner is not a best person to do it, change must come from inside).

Dangerous to make for gods sake a corrupt police lose face! As the tourist police advised, "to have no problems (!!), pay something"...I mean, dangerous to fool with some one who has power and no responsibilities. A bit risque to start acting "hero" or is it? It is not long since a finnish man was kidnapped by police in Pattaya...

ps. Good that you and your friends made effort to stand against them anyway!! Dangerously brave ppl...most would have just paid (not 15 0 00 but something anyway). Heard a story from a guy on airplane back to Finland. Had to pay 2000 baht to police for changing lane to bus/taxi lane on Sukhumvit...A bit steep price for such a mishap, big even in western standards, let alone in Thailand...

[Chris]

We had two of the people in our group who had been living there for over 8 years and who had good connections with Tourist Police. Whenever in trouble, call on tourist police ;-). In fact at one time we had more TP at the stations than 'regular' cops :-D. In no way were we going to shelve out 15,000 baht. In fact we stood up when the officers on the take pulled out the handcuffs in order to force his wife to pay the tea money or they would take her to jail. Makes you wonder who the crooks are.

He has never had any problems with the police after that. Maybe having 12 regular witnesses and 4 TP officers as witness helped.

It all depends on the situation. I do not recomment standing up in a difficult situation where you can settle things with a few hundred baht. Even though it should not be like that.

Problem is that corruption in the force makes people shun them when a REAL problem occurs, coz they know it will cost them money anyway.

Courtesy helps. Whenever an officer stop you (plain clothes) for example. Always ask for a valid ID. Might also deter scam officers from trying to rip you off ;-)

[i_love_som_tam]

Corruption is a way of life in the Asian countries. Having spent a lot of time in Indonesia, East Timor, Thailand, Iraq, Jordan and Kuwait I have seen it too many times to count.

In Bali I was in a tour that was stopped at checkpoints 3 times in four hours where the Polri demanded bribes of 5000 Rupiah to expedite our departure. If we didn't cough up the money they would have kept us there for hours while the checked out our passports. Five thousand Rupiah amounts to just over 40 20 baht, or fifty cents USD so I happily paid them. Selling there souls for 50 cents. Yikes. :shock:

My girlfriend is a poor driver and is constantly being stopped by the Thai police. She costs me a fortune in bribes when I am with her.

The East Timorese have adopted the attitude of the Indonesians who ruled them for 26 years and the Portuguese who ruled them for 450 years. They had the opportunity to start fresh in 1999 but old habits die hard. One Timorese judge and a United Nations worker were arrested for being involved in a $10,000 USD bribe so that the UN worker could "adopt" an orphaned 12 year old girl to take back to Africa with him. He should have had his nads cut off. :twisted:

The East Timorese police have adopted the same pratice of setting up checkpoints to get money out of locals and tourists.

In the Arab countries in South West Asia, Iraq, Kuwait and Jordan, they have a polite name for bribes, "Bakshish". This seems to make them feel that it is permissable to take money for services that they are already performing.

Corruption has been in this part of the world for thousnads of years. It will never go away.

[Loburt]

I don't agree that corruption will never go away in these societies.

There are people in these societies who want it to go away. They aren't strong enough yet.

If you look at Western societies a hundred or so years ago, they were far more corrupt than they are now. Tammany Hall in New York, the Teapot Dome scandal, etc. etc. And the Knapp Commission and Serpico blowing the lid off police corruption there is less than 40 years in the past.

It's not suprising that Thai police and civil servants are corrupt. They are paid dog crap for salaries. I remember The Nation doing a story about honest Thai cops several years back. They were all dirt poor. A policeman's starting salary is 5,000 baht a month (same as most housemaids) and he has to buy his own gun (the housemaid's get theirs free).

And Chris is right. If you start putting corrupt members of the elite in jail that will go a long ways toward solving the problem. The problem now is that most people feel the country's top politician is corrupt himself. The example that is being set is terrible.

It's really a shame. Because saying no to corruption has been a key message that HM and his followers have been talking about consistently for the past several years.

It won't change tomorrow, or next year. But that doesn't mean it can't and won't change at some point.

[GoldMember]

C

In Bali I was in a tour that was stopped at checkpoints 3 times in four hours where the Polri demanded bribes of 5000 Rupiah to expedite our departure. If we didn't cough up the money they would have kept us there for hours while the checked out our passports. Five thousand Rupiah amounts to just over 40 20 baht, or fifty cents USD so I happily paid them. Selling there souls for 50 cents. Yikes. :shock:

Reminds me i was stopped in Bali(kuta) riding a motorbike wth a friend on pillion and we were stopped at one of those police checkpoints along Jalan Legian.Ended up paying a 50,000 rupiah 'fine' on the spot .But had no Driving license with me,wasn't wearing a helmet and was p+ssed as a newt.The prospect of a court appearance wasnt that appealing either.So worked out pretty well.At Manila airport once overstayed by a few days.immigration guy suggested i put a 500 peso note(then worth about $15) in my passport.voila.

Corruption is great if you can afford it but ultimately if culturally endemic can be a real society&economy killer.Places like Singapore have done a good job weeding out a lot of corruption/graft within a S-E asian context.Least corrupt region in the world is apparently North America .

[somjai]

The question is how can one stop the corruption in Thailand? It is in every government body in every country. Thai is one of the worst because the country is moving backward instead of forward.

[sunsnow]

One very recent link:

http://www.pattayacitynews.net/news_30_08_49_5.htm

Police trying to extort money from a criminal. I say this story is very funny in a way, one of those scamming the scammers stories! Read it! I would say: GOTCHA YOU BRIBED BUTTHEADS! Both parties should be shot in the head, I would say if I was into heavy corporal punishment, but I am not, so as a Finn, I would recommend good slap on the wrists and say "no no boys, don't ever do that again" ;-) Seriously, both parties should be slammed into a prison for maybe 10 years. Ugh. (No killing thank you . )

One I found in Stickman, I don't doubt this traveling story is true. The writer posts both fiction and non-fiction accounts , but this I think belongs to the non-fiction:

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader/reader2218.htm

See how in this story by the american woman the ammount of heroin she was trying to take out of the country gets mysteriously smaller.

(I recommend his quite recent postings this year about love as a chemical imbalance, but that is totally an another story and one new one this week where he explains his background, giving him some credit from his academic merits)

[khun_lung]

There are at least two ways to look at corruption.

1. Stamp out corruption.

2. Let it work for you.