Bangkok's Drug War Goes Global

[Mazzy]

Just read that piece (below) from last week?s edition of the Wall Street Journal. Surprisingly hostile, even considering this is an American journal. It seems that the Thai?s government decision to issue compulsory licences on some HIV drugs has upset people in pretty high places in the States? I was wondering how the government?s decision had been received by Thai?s media? Anybody has seen something about that on the local press?

"Thailand's seizures of foreign drug patents earlier this year elicited

cheers from the usual crowd of anti-patent hooligans. That's not

serious, per se. But by letting Bangkok's actions go unchallenged --

and in some official quarters, by supporting them -- a dangerous

precedent now risks being set.

If you don't believe us, consider the proposals recently floated at the

World Health Organization. In its January executive board meeting,

Thailand's representative, Dr. Suwit Wibulpolprasert, declared that if

an influenza pandemic hit, he'd counsel Bangkok to hold Western

tourists hostage until those countries gave Thailand the necessary

vaccines. The Kenyan delegation said it would present a proposal to its

health ministry to seize Novartis's patent on Coartem, a malaria drug.

And Bolivia chipped in that member states have to "put people over

profit."

This kind of rhetoric is dangerous. Drug companies spend billions of

dollars to develop, test and deliver drugs, as well as educate

physicians on how to use them. There's no reason for Big Pharma to sink

money into an expensive enterprise unless it is duly rewarded for it.

That's why no serious government has contemplated using compulsory

licensing, even if it's allowed to do so under WTO rules. Thailand and

NGOs cite, among other countries, Mozambique, Zimbabwe and Cameroon as

anti-patent precedents -- hardly the world's economic role models.

In seizing the patents for HIV/AIDS and heart medication, Thailand is

exploiting vague language in the WTO's Agreement on Trade-Related

Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights, or TRIPs, which sets down

rules under which countries can seize patents. Article 31 provides for

compulsory licensing in case of "national emergency" or for "public

non-commercial use." Thailand clearly doesn't have an HIV/AIDS epidemic

and heart disease isn't a "national emergency." So Bangkok claims the

latter case, which is hard to rebut. What does "public non-commercial

use" mean, anyway?

[?]

It's also unclear that Thailand's motives are purely altruistic. The

national health security board that issued the compulsory licenses is

under the Ministry of Public Health and allows outside NGOs on the

board. Thailand's military government claims it can't afford to pay for

rising drug costs, but at the same time promises free drugs for the

poor. Yet it hasn't done a thing to address the taxes levied on drug

imports, nor the often double-digit markups on drugs as they wend their

way through Thailand's domestic delivery system to patients.

The irony is that firms like Merck don't make money on the seized

patents in Thailand. In a January 2005 letter addressed to the Thai

government, Merck's local subsidiary explained that the company sells

Stocrin and Crixivan, two HIV/AIDS drugs, at a no-profit price in

Thailand, "inclusive of custom duties, import duty, VAT, and...delivery

costs." Sounds like Bangkok's levies, not Merck's profit motive, are

helping push up drug prices."

[sunsnow]

The are sound economic reasons for seeking compulsory licences. In doing so, Thailand also has avoided spending an additional $18.6 billion on HIV/AIDS treatments from 2002 to 2012 because of its prevention and treatment programs.

World Bank economists calculated that Thailand saves $43 in treatment for every $1 spent on prevention.

Hmm, you are quoting here PREVENTION, which has nothing to do with the treatment with pills? Or what kind of prevention is meant here in the material yo write/quote? Preventing HIV becoming AIDS? Or "spending on condoms"? (Just to clear up the text for myself ) I am reading part of your text so that it seems to me you or just the way you quote the World Bank report are a bit mixing two uses of prevention - preventive programs like condoms and information distribution ("without them there would be XXX amount more cases") but also "prevention by medicines"that is about slowing HIV becoming AIDS (the 43$ vs. 1$ part).

Btw, are you quoting or reproducing material in your own words? (The parts of second phase drugs and it's related costs sounded very familiar, or maybe just I have been reading these news too before and they have stuck somewhere in the back of my mind )

[sunsnow]

New developments, following recent Abbot's decision to meet in middle ground with Thai officials about these things...

"USA for Innovation Ad Campaign Highlights Thailand's Theft of American Assets"

USA for Innovation is lobbying to confront Thailand on counterfeiting and piracy.

8 Deadly Lies About Thailand's Theft of American Innovation

Go check the links thru www.2bangkok.com

[duanja]

-http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/25/national/national_30030166.php

-The Manager Online call it is a winning.

-Jon Ungpakorn (secretary of Access to HIV foundation, kinda ngo worers, brother of Ji) just went to protest it in the USA, affirming that the Democrat supported Thai to do so.

I think the decision comes from their logics : rob for the people ja.

I think coup did no pay for the poor not because of lacking money but because they wanna show off a bit. Trying to make a difference.

PM Surayud just said thai will claimin the right to compulsory licensing only on HIV drugs' patent .

[MisterMatlock]

Stealing "intellectual property" from the West is nothing new for the Thai government... There are laws here against it, but they're never actually enforced. I don't like "Big Pharma" in the US, but find it funny that the patents for these drugs are being violated so that the Thai pharma companies can make money off of them. Stealing these patents was NOT for the sake of helping Thai Aids patients.

[MisterMatlock]

This is why I hate Big Pharma... They neglect to mention that they take up a lot of the research done at universities... Granted, it's still no way to excuse the Thai gov't for stealing.

[Loburt]

If the Thai goverment were "stealing", then the US government, on behalf of American pharamceutical companies and the enormous sums they pay their lobbyists, would be bringing a case against Thailand with the World Trade Organizaiton.

The Us Government has done no such thing. Because, like it or not, what the Thai government has done is legal under WTO agreements.

And now Brazil is going to do the same.

This was not done to help people living with HIV? I'm so glad you can look into the heart of the Minister of Public Health and tell us all what's there.

When you can show that Thai pharmaceutical companies are making big money off this, then you can make that statement. Otherwise, that's just a lot of BS.

[sunsnow]

When you can show that Thai pharmaceutical companies are making big money off this, then you can make that statement. Otherwise, that's just a lot of BS.

"In addition to the taxes and tariffs, Thailand's Government Pharmaceutical Organization builds in its own profit margins before distributing drugs to the people of Thailand. In 2002 Thailand's then-Auditor-General Jaruvan Maintaka issued a report saying that the GPO sold about 60% of its medical products to government agencies at above market prices. In some cases, prices were marked up 1,000 percent. Investigative journalist Daniel Ten Kate notes in the Asia Sentinel earlier this year:

In 2003, the GPO made a net profit of 624.2 million baht [$19.2 million] on revenues of 3.7 billion baht [$114 million]. A year later, revenues topped 4 billion baht [$123.3 million], and rose to five billion [$154.1 million] in 2005. Profits for the GPO topped one billion baht [$30.8 million] in 2005, according to Anuthin Charnveerakul, the deputy public health minister under Thaksin, who also scolded the state enterprise for spending a mere 19 million baht [$585,541] -- just two percent of net profit -- on research and development. Now the GPO plans to double revenue to 10 billion baht [$308.2 million] by 2010." This equals = until other sources discredit this quote, what you said is BS. Right?

[CiaranM]

When you can show that Thai pharmaceutical companies are making big money off this, then you can make that statement. Otherwise, that's just a lot of BS.

"In addition to the taxes and tariffs, Thailand's Government Pharmaceutical Organization builds in its own profit margins before distributing drugs to the people of Thailand. In 2002 Thailand's then-Auditor-General Jaruvan Maintaka issued a report saying that the GPO sold about 60% of its medical products to government agencies at above market prices. In some cases, prices were marked up 1,000 percent. Investigative journalist Daniel Ten Kate notes in the Asia Sentinel earlier this year:

In 2003, the GPO made a net profit of 624.2 million baht [$19.2 million] on revenues of 3.7 billion baht [$114 million]. A year later, revenues topped 4 billion baht [$123.3 million], and rose to five billion [$154.1 million] in 2005. Profits for the GPO topped one billion baht [$30.8 million] in 2005, according to Anuthin Charnveerakul, the deputy public health minister under Thaksin, who also scolded the state enterprise for spending a mere 19 million baht [$585,541] -- just two percent of net profit -- on research and development. Now the GPO plans to double revenue to 10 billion baht [$308.2 million] by 2010." This equals = until other sources discredit this quote, what you said is BS. Right?

i do believe we were discussing specifically the drugs being produced to combat Aids/HIV not the entire Pharmaceutical industry in Thailand !!!

[Loburt]

When you can show that Thai pharmaceutical companies are making big money off this, then you can make that statement. Otherwise, that's just a lot of BS.

"In addition to the taxes and tariffs, Thailand's Government Pharmaceutical Organization builds in its own profit margins before distributing drugs to the people of Thailand. In 2002 Thailand's then-Auditor-General Jaruvan Maintaka issued a report saying that the GPO sold about 60% of its medical products to government agencies at above market prices. In some cases, prices were marked up 1,000 percent. Investigative journalist Daniel Ten Kate notes in the Asia Sentinel earlier this year:

In 2003, the GPO made a net profit of 624.2 million baht [$19.2 million] on revenues of 3.7 billion baht [$114 million]. A year later, revenues topped 4 billion baht [$123.3 million], and rose to five billion [$154.1 million] in 2005. Profits for the GPO topped one billion baht [$30.8 million] in 2005, according to Anuthin Charnveerakul, the deputy public health minister under Thaksin, who also scolded the state enterprise for spending a mere 19 million baht [$585,541] -- just two percent of net profit -- on research and development. Now the GPO plans to double revenue to 10 billion baht [$308.2 million] by 2010." This equals = until other sources discredit this quote, what you said is BS. Right?

i do believe we were discussing specifically the drugs being produced to combat Aids/HIV not the entire Pharmaceutical industry in Thailand !!!

Exactly. Those stats don't refer to drugs issued on compulsory licenses, but the entire GPO.

[sunsnow]

Ok, I see, so that stat would require more information on the backgrounds as now it is insufficient.

(Well, I believe then that GPO will be making with these meds a point of humanitarian cause and produce and sell them without markups, and diverting the profits from other meds to hmm, somewhere. :-D (But definetly they won't use the profits to buy orginal products from the manufacturer! That just would be, not sabai.))

--------

On totally different subject: I understand the way to reason behind the HIV/AIDS meds (not necessarily in Thailands case though but for real developping countries with few resources). But what about that heart med? I still have not figured out what is the reasoning behind opening that license? That question was asked in a BBC World news broadcast too. Could Finland do the same? We have traditionally had big problems with heart diseases, not least because of we being eating too much, too salty and too much butter. But also because we happen to have genetic make up that makes us more vulnerable...Could our government make the same decision to open the license and give Finnish pharma companies go ahead to produce them? And if not, why? It sure is taking a toll on our social care system and on tax fundings...

As was expected, if everyone feels like Loburt et al, that this was not against WTO rules, and anyone could claim "public non-commercial" rule to grant compulsory licenses, I see no reason why Finland or Brazil or any country in the world could do just this what has now happened. Pharma companies fears are coming true?

[Mazzy]

As was expected, if everyone feels like Loburt et al, that this was not against WTO rules, and anyone could claim "public non-commercial" rule to grant compulsory licenses, I see no reason why Finland or Brazil or any country in the world could do just this what has now happened. Pharma companies fears are coming true?

Well, according to the WTO rules you can issue a compulsory license (ie. grant the right to local companies to develop generic version of a drug) in case of a public health emergency. So for HIV...I would said Thailand stand does make sense. For the hearth medication, I'm not so sure. I would need to see the incidence of the disease in Thailand.

On a more personal note, I really have strong issues with seeing the word "stealing" used when refering to patent infringement. Both the patent system and the current research and development strategies of multinational pharma companies are controversial and everyone seems to agree (except industry) that some things need to be done for a more equitable system. Otherwise, with the new biotech drugs soon to come out of the market both the population of developing countries and the poor in the developed one will be unable to afford medicine anymore.

[CiaranM]

As was expected, if everyone feels like Loburt et al, that this was not against WTO rules, and anyone could claim "public non-commercial" rule to grant compulsory licenses, I see no reason why Finland or Brazil or any country in the world could do just this what has now happened. Pharma companies fears are coming true?

well now if u tried to keep up to date u would know brazil intends to do just that !!!

or something very similar !!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6626073.stm

[sunsnow]

well now if u tried to keep up to date u would know brazil intends to do just that !!!

m

I know, the Brazil was not there by accident, as Finland and Brazil do not have much in common otherwise. No, we do not have similar beaches, and our babes have much more whiter skin.

To Mazzy: to the best of my understanding, and always open for corrections, there is the two reasons for the WTO thing to be in force: "public health emergency" and this other more generic term of non-profit public use argument.

And the debate on public health emergency in Thailand has been: the prevelance of disease is pretty high, but not as bad as in Africa and Thailands financial means to further curb the disease are much better too by using effective taxation system and so on. So some have argued that using "public health emergency" clause just wont cut it here. And then is this quote:

"Consider: Earlier this month, Abbott Laboratories announced that it would sell to Thailand and dozens of other low-income nations, Kaletra for $1,000 per patient annually. That's about 55 percent less than Kaletra's current cost and cheaper than every copy of the medicine available. In March, Merck similarly offered to drastically reduce the price of Efavirenz.

Yet Thailand has asserted that it will maintain compulsory licenses for both medicines."

http://www.suntimes.com/news/otherviews/371919,CST-EDT-REF05B.article

These are the two of three drugs under scrutiny.

And still, I would like to say that I am no cold mean person, I just think that there are some countries who deserve cheap drugs faster than Thailand who could very well accept the lowered drug prices and fund it from the government coffins! So if you want to demand some humanitarian attitude from these big companies, I think personally best countries to start with are those sub-Saharan poor nations. This might be just flexing some muscles from Thai health officials? Why there seems to be only program to use the simple and dirty solution of compulsory licensing, without giving out information of other real programs to finance the drugs and help the patients. The funding for sex ed has been low for years and so on. Compulsory licensing ain't no permanent solution, or should not be, especially when GPO has bad track record on making their generic drugs...But it is damn "easy" way. Is the government really trying their best in all fields, not focusing on just one route to "solution", and thinkin' the best for the patients? Wholesome solution, not just quick fixes. Or just denying their treatmeant some other way and turning them away the minute they bag the generic drug deals.

Healthy conspriracy always in mind in pondering about the true motives beind this med controvercy, you see. :-P Again, understanding Thailands need for effective healthcare for HIV/AIDS patients, but suspecting the motives and methods.

[Loburt]

Try telling the 600,000 people in this country living with HIV that they are not in the midst of a public health emergency because Thailand's prevalence rate is not has high as Africa's.

Using only prevalence rates as a yardstick is flawed. Zambia has an HIV prevalence of 17%. Thailand has prevalence of 1.4%. Zambia has 960,000 people infected. Thailand has about 600,000. More than many, actually most African countries.

South Africa has prevalence of 18.8%. India has 0.9%. South Africa has 5.2 million infected people. India has 5.5 million.

At a conference on paediatric HIV in KL in November, organized by the World Health Organization, UNAIDS, UNICEF and UNFPA, a WHO official urged developing countries in Asia, such as Thailand, to explore using the WTO TRIPS agreement to maufacture generic versions of ARVs.

They judge these countries to be in a public health emergency. They are public health officals and are qualified to judge. What is your qualification to make the judgement they are not?

Try telling the 600,000 infected people in this country that they should wait for Thailand to adopt a sensible taxation regime before they can get the medicines they need to save their lives. That sort of cold and heartless argument just won't cut it there.

Thailand isn't poor enough for you? Thailand has about $40 billion in reserves. China has been receiving free paediatric HIV medicines from the Clinton Foundation. China has more than $1 trillion in reserves.

Yes, after years of saying they could not afford to do it, Abbot cut the price of its HIV medication in half. AFTER THAILAND SAID IT WOULD ISSUE A COMPULSORY LICENSE. Until Thailand did that, Abbot refused to budge.

[sunsnow]

Try telling the 600,000 people in this country living with HIV that they are not in the midst of a public health emergency because Thailand's prevalence rate is not has high as Africa's.

And multiple other examples about various diseases and health conditions around the world, how they all deserve the best treatmeant but are not getting it...Tell that to Finns, Irish and British who all are killed by heart diseases every year by huge numbers, in fact half of Finnish deaths are related to heart- and artery diseases. Tell them that their disease is not a public health emergency. Damn, infact, Thais did push this button already on the TRIP agreement.

Various issues about your reply:

Again, WHO has not declared Thailands HIV/AIDS situation "public health emergency". No matter how much you quote that KL event in 2006, they did not declare it there either. (And besides, that doesn't matter in the WTO sense as nations can declare what they want in theory as public health emergency!)

"The World Health Organization (WHO) is concerned about the AIDS situation in Indonesia and says it is out of control there.

The warning comes as the Indonesian government has predicted that up to a million people may be infected by 2010.

The WHO is also concerned about the increasing number of infections among intravenous drug users, sex workers, and heterosexuals in the eastern province of Papua.

Georg Petersen, the WHO's country representative, says when compared to neighbours Thailand and Cambodia, where rates of infection appear to be stabilizing, Indonesia shows a trend that it is still not under control."

What is true though, is that in KL they talked about generic drugs and making the licenses available in an easier way. Also in that meeting to my best understanding they noted that Thailand has in three years a row started to slip back as the infections are growing among family women.

Btw, fyi, from those 600 000 ppl, not all them need these second stage ARV's yet, thank god, so you are blowing up the number when making this statement. (This just as a curiosity notion)

"Affordable ARVs are now available to tens of thousands of Thais - in fact many do not pay anything at all for them, as they are provided by the government's universal healthcare scheme or by HIV/Aids organisations.

This is possible because of Thailand's decision to make cheap, generic copies of ARVs at a fraction of the cost of the branded drugs. "

Thailand isn't poor enough for you? Thailand has about $40 billion in reserves. China has been receiving free paediatric HIV medicines from the Clinton Foundation. China has more than $1 trillion in reserves.

The fact that Chinese are managing in "cheating" foreigners to give them aid when it comes to financial and medical care instead of them using their own public money to treat them is not really a good comparison, is it. China's reputation in health care is your standard of comparison? And no, Thailand is not as poor as sub-Saharan countries. Also, if 1 trillion is 1000 billion? That means there is $614 in reserves in Thailand per capita and in China $756. So they are equally poor, so they should both get free HIV meds from Clinton Foundation? That is your opinion? That as both coutnries have so much sucked in med care to their own people, other countries shall give them free drugs so they can use their money, to what exactly? Am I to figure out from this blurb from you that China has all its HIV meds for free from Clinton Foundation? What type of drugs they are? Ever heard about the saying: Give man a fish, he eats for one day. Give man fishing equipment and teach him to fish and he will eat everyday or something along those lines. So both of these countries, China which boasts with its high growing economy for years and years and years in a row should get free drugs, no questions asked or strings attached? And Thailand too then, which is not exactly under developped either. No own effort required eh?

Yes, after years of saying they could not afford to do it, Abbot cut the price of its HIV medication in half. AFTER THAILAND SAID IT WOULD ISSUE A COMPULSORY LICENSE. Until Thailand did that, Abbot refused to budge.

Great, so why Thailand can't buy it from them then? Whats up with that then I wonder, maybe some journalist should investigate that further?

And again, what is up with the heart disease med?

(See, I am trying to avoid the generic drug issue when it comes to HIV/AIDS drugs as I have already stated that it works and should work easier for example sub-Saharan countries. But more interesting is Thailands decision on the heart drug, and the diversion this has again given on more bigger issues, like financing the health care from foreign companies pockets instead of governemnts pockets.)

(I like to give out sources, a good tip for you too Loburt so that it is easier to check up on your statements:

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=20997

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=21070

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=21093

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=21131

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6587379.stm

http://www.astrazeneca.fi/article/500963.aspx

CIA Factbook used to get the population figures. Don't know exactly what those "reserves" were or were the numbers were taken but I gave it a shoot anyway. It is always fun to poke into your posts Loburt, as I have to do the research always on the spot and you are supposedly drawing from your vast experiment thru your career. And still, damn, I seem to find holes and faults in your ways to make arguments, even when we are in totally different league. Me doing this for fun, you doing it as your day job. Cheers! )

[Loburt]

Indonesia does not have as many infected people as Thailand. Indonesia has 170,000 people infected while Thailand has 600,000.

The WHO official did not use the term "public health emergency." Does that mean one does not exist? Indonesia has not declared a pubilc health emergency as far as HIV is concerned.

By many accounts, hundreds of thousands of people in Burma are infected with HIV, and they have absolutely no medication, and as there are almost no prevention programs, the epidemic is spreading rapidly. Some districts in Burma have African prevalence rates. Yet the government has not declared a public health emergency. Does that mean one does not exist?

If you read the TRIPS agreement, a nation is not required to officially declare a "public health emergency" to issue a compulsory license. It simply must determine it is in the public interest to do so.

So whether or not the Thai government has officially declared HIV a public health emergency is irrelevant under the WTO agreement, and so a false argument on your part, and the part of the drug companies and their Neocon lobbyists. What's it like being on the side of the Neocons?

The WHO official said the situation is "not yet under control" in Indonesia and by 2010 a million people may be infected. A million people in Thailand have already died from AIDS.

Pretty cold and heartless to suggest Indonesia has a public health emergency while Thailand doesn't consdering a million people are dead. Also nonsensical. And also a misrepresentation of the WHO - UN assessment of the situation.

And the WHO didn't only urge using TRIPS in KL. They urged it in Hanoi and other conferences, and they've urged African countries to do the same. And you didn't quote the WHO rep who made the presentation on using TRIPS. You quoted a different WHO rep making a different presentation and twistd what he said. You weren't in KL or Hanoi. I was.

The official said the situations in Thailand and Cambodia are stabilizing. That is because the Thai and Cambodian governments do have in place strong programs to slow the numbers of people being infected. They are doing their part. Indonesia's government has not yet put such a program in place.

There are far more people in need of ARV in Thailand right now than Indonesia. It is a far more serious situation as far as the need for medication now. And I never wrote that all 600,000 infected Thais need second line ARV. So stop lying.

Yes, the Thai government has been making generic first line ARV available for a long time now. The Abbot drug is a second line medication, for people whom the the original drugs no longer work. The Thai government has admirably been footing the bill for all of it at great expense, and it says it can't keep affording to do so.

Because Abbot cut the price in half you state the Thais can now afford it. How are you qualified to make that statement? At exactly what price are the Thais able to afford this drug, and how did you arrive at that particular number? Answer the question.

And if it is so affordable now, why is Brazil, which is a richer country than Thailand, going ahead and issuing a compulsory license for the same drug?

[Loburt]

(I like to give out sources, a good tip for you too Loburt so that it is easier to check up on your statements:

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=20997

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=21070

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=21093

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=21131

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6587379.stm

http://www.astrazeneca.fi/article/500963.aspx

CIA Factbook used to get the population figures. Don't know exactly what those "reserves" were or were the numbers were taken but I gave it a shoot anyway. It is always fun to poke into your posts Loburt, as I have to do the research always on the spot and you are supposedly drawing from your vast experiment thru your career. And still, damn, I seem to find holes and faults in your ways to make arguments, even when we are in totally different league. Me doing this for fun, you doing it as your day job. Cheers! )

What a joke. The information on these links does not contradict what I've posted as far as prevalence and numbers of infected or the situation on ARV and TRIPS.

You think by just putting up a bunch of links that most people won't bother to look at that you can snow people into thinking you've proved your points.

Just another snow job from Sunsnow.

My statistics on prevalence and the numbers of infected come from the 2006 UNAIDS Report on the Global AIDS Epidemic.

Reserves are foreign reserves, what a government has in its central bank and a measure of how rich or poor a country is.

The holes and faults you think your found are the holes and faults in your own failed attempts at logic, not what I've written.

And this is not my day job. At least I have a day job. You ought to try it sometime.

[sunsnow]

So whether or not the Thai government has officially declared HIV a public health emergency is irrelevant under the WTO agreement, and so a false argument on your part, and the part of the drug companies and their Neocon lobbyists. What's it like being on the side of the Neocons?

Read again.

"Again, WHO has not declared Thailands HIV/AIDS situation "public health emergency". No matter how much you quote that KL event in 2006, they did not declare it there either. (And besides, that doesn't matter in the WTO sense as nations can declare what they want in theory as public health emergency!) "

When you read again, you see that I stated exactly that. I just wanted to say that there were no "declaring publich health emergency" there. And then I noted that it does not matter. So anything you said following from misreading, is totally irrelevant bla bla bla. I also gave out the link where it could be found the rep in the KL meeting. The Indonesian guy was from different situation, also given source in the end. I did not misintreprit anything, it just required ppl to look to the sources.

(Funny. And you were in KL, and Hanoi? Good for you! I have been to Graz, have you? Lets compare the stamps in our passports! It would be so cool! Oh, today I ate potatoes. That really gives me credit to say how potatoes should be planted.)

So, when you read this, you can come back to join me in the dark side. Satan is here on the evil Neocon side too. And Thaksin. And yeah, you know what, your mum is here too. The neocon side rocks ass! Don't be offended about your mum, as there is lot of us in the world, the Neocons. We ain't that bad. I know your mum ain't bad! She sure is fine parent! So no one is alone at this dark side. You want to try other feeble ad hominem attacks? (It really is funny, as I have always been called totally the opposite of neocon...But hey, it is cool side! And it does sound nice...Neocon..There is this cool click to it. Neocon. Mmm, sounds so modern.)

There are far more people in need of ARV in Thailand right now than Indonesia. It is a far more serious situation as far as the need for medication now. And I never wrote that all 600,000 infected Thais need second line ARV. So stop lying.

You said:

Try telling the 600,000 infected people in this country that they should wait for Thailand to adopt a sensible taxation regime before they can get the medicines they need to save their lives. That sort of cold and heartless argument just won't cut it there.

You said this when the topic is second line ARVs. So, you tried to say thru this emotional statement, that these 600 000 infected ppl have to wait for live prolonging drugs if there is not these new measures that Thailand took. When instead I quoted as counter argument, quote showing that this is not true - that Thailand already handouts generic drugs. Hence, you made the connection between this new Thai development and the total number of patients, not me. I just showed you that. I was not lyingc, and you continued after this confirming the fact about first line of ARVs. QED Do not mix the first line of drugs to the second line of drugs that ruffled the feathers in this new development at the end of last year and continued to do so untill now.

The Thai government has admirably been footing the bill for all of it at great expense.

And no one would expect less. This is very admirable, but is something that any nation would do, isn't it. (Ofcourse, you can always find even worse comparisons, so that you look good yourself...)

Because Abbot cut the price in half you state the Thais can now afford it. How are you qualified to make that statement? At exactly what price are the Thais able to afford this drug, and how did you arrive at that particular number? Answer the question.

I have only quoted news article that claimed they have turned down the offer. Which also said that generic drug makers make the drug at same price. So Thailand would win nothing if they changed from Abbot to their own generic maker? Can you then show me numbers that show otherwise? How do you arrive to particular numbers that show that in no way Thailand could not afford this drugs at lowered price. And what is the price in your opinion right for these drugs. And who should pay it. Answer this counter-question now that I have again showed where I came up with this argument.

And if it is so affordable now, why is Brazil, which is a richer country than Thailand, going ahead and issuing a compulsory license for the same drug?

Because Thailand showed the example. Exactly what the drug companies were saying will happen. I am hoping that representatives in Finnish parliament will do the same thing to heart disease drugs here.

[sunsnow]

After writing my previous post, I see you continued on the line of kindergarden tactics.

What a joke. The information on these links does not contradict what I've posted as far as prevalence and numbers of infected or the situation on ARV and TRIPS.

Exactly on some points. You should have understood what I tried to say, instead o starting to blabber other stuff. Oh, they prove your prevalence numbers, but I never knew their authenticity was questioned at any point...:roll: Seems you really manage to point out non-related things, do you.

You think by just putting up a bunch of links that most people won't bother to look at that you can snow people into thinking you've proved your points.

You know, it is up to them. I have show the places where ppl can find the information I tried to make argument on, if they feel so, when the conversation is on a subject that is heated and all kinds of different views fly about. And this helps to make counter arguments and see if I make any sense. Because you do not bother giving any sources, so it is pretty darn hard to have arguments with you. I think this is much better way than what you do when the push comes to really see what has been said and is one intrepreting things correctly or not. It is that way much more easier to find for example faults in logic which we all have.

Reserves are foreign reserves, what a government has in its central bank and a measure of how rich or poor a country is.

Thanks, because of this information that you gave. I can say that it is very simplistic view into foreign reserves. Foreign reserves do not measure accuratly how rich or poor a country is, or how rich or poor its individuals are. From example answers.com "But often, very large reserves are not a hedge against inflation but rather a direct consequence of the opposite policy: the bank has purchased large amounts of foreign currency in order to keep its own currency relatively cheap"

Or from elsewhere,

""What is happening now with the build up of reserves is that if you export for the sake of exports, the people living in these countries don't benefit. In the long term that is what has to be really the focus of attention," he said."

The holes and faults you think your found are the holes and faults in your own failed attempts at logic, not what I've written.

Yes, SIR.

And this is not my day job. At least I have a day job. You ought to try it sometime.

Well, basing your things on facts is, isn't it...But ok, tomorrow I will go to work!

[anenglishman]

Loburt: "And if it is so affordable now, why is Brazil, which is a richer country than Thailand, going ahead and issuing a compulsory license for the same drug?"

Interesting point.......particularly as Brazil are using the Thai example as a basis for demanding a lower price than Merck has offered them...namely the Thai price.

A lot of **** waving going on here, from all the usual players....well player.

[anenglishman]

Loburt: "And if it is so affordable now, why is Brazil, which is a richer country than Thailand, going ahead and issuing a compulsory license for the same drug?"

Interesting point.......particularly as Brazil are using the Thai example as a basis for demanding a lower price than Merck has offered them...namely the Thai price.

A lot of **** waving going on here, from all the usual players....well player.

the "**** waving" has now moved off board onto PM. I suspected it would be so....delighted not to be disappointed. intellectual discussion by non-intellectuals is rarely profitable. as a definite non-intellectual I resign.

[CiaranM]

just wondering does sunsnow practice being an a**hole .... or is it just a natural talent !!!

i'm sure tatt2dude had an expression for guys like him !!

[sunsnow]

http://www.tetongravity.com/usergalleries/albums/userpics/boner.gif

Ok, I know, probably sometimes I am faving it here. Who knows. (Animated faving d*k, not realistic looking) Yihaa! I am sure that my resume is worth faving a d*k for! I do TF on my spare time. Then I read sometimes some news too, mainly tech news, they are cool. Oh, and I work in small owned company, yes I do, believe it or not, someone has actually hired me in a mistake. I have been to some countries in Europe as all my friends. Ha, there is some faving for ya! Right? Right! Ha! Faving, we are faving! Where is the spear to throw myself at? Tragedy they cried. But where is the wolf?

(I really learned a lot today, mainly: urbandictionary.com --> "faving ****" And I luv it, I mean the phrase. Not faving the thang. I need to learn be humble and keep it in my pants as it is not so big to fave in the first place! Oh boy, I am going to regret saying this...:-D) No offense to anyone. Well, I am bit sorry for all the ppl, as I am sure I cant help it, soon I wil again succumb to this trap and be faving here my dingles like big flag. Or not so big. I bet I wont learn to be humble. I am just that annoying, picking on people on things they claim, like they pick on me. To those who give, shall be given back. Just give me the stage. Ok, back to my meds. Expensive ones, that is. Damn bad TRIP I am having. I am natural talented a-hole when it comes to certain things, I like to bully ppl bigger than me. :-P Arrr! :twisted: Biblical.

[CiaranM]

http://www.tetongravity.com/usergalleries/albums/userpics/boner.gif

Ok, I know, probably sometimes I am faving it here. Who knows. (Animated faving d*k, not realistic looking) Yihaa! I am sure that my resume is worth faving a d*k for! I do TF on my spare time. Then I read sometimes some news too, mainly tech news, they are cool. Oh, and I work in small owned company, yes I do, believe it or not, someone has actually hired me in a mistake. I have been to some countries in Europe as all my friends. Ha, there is some faving for ya! Right? Right! Ha! Faving, we are faving! Where is the spear to throw myself at? Tragedy they cried. But where is the wolf?

(I really learned a lot today, mainly: urbandictionary.com --> "faving ****" And I luv it, I mean the phrase. Not faving the thang. I need to learn be humble and keep it in my pants as it is not so big to fave in the first place! Oh boy, I am going to regret saying this...:-D) No offense to anyone. Well, I am bit sorry for all the ppl, as I am sure I cant help it, soon I wil again succumb to this trap and be faving here my dingles like big flag. Or not so big. I bet I wont learn to be humble. I am just that annoying, picking on people on things they claim, like they pick on me. To those who give, shall be given back. Just give me the stage. Ok, back to my meds. Expensive ones, that is. Damn bad TRIP I am having. I am natural talented a-hole when it comes to certain things, I like to bully ppl bigger than me. :-P Arrr! :twisted: Biblical.

obviously he practices ... nobody is that naturally talented !!!