Corruption

[Kayle]

I am taking an Economic Crime course at university. My initial intention was to learn all the trick for future reference, unfortunately it later found my ethical mode and changed me to be a better person (you know I am joking right?)

I like this quote I got from the course " Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely" It goes very well when the BBC world show a special report on thailand political issue at the moment. Anyway, I am not going to talk about the PM.

During the course I recalled the time when I have a training on forensic service I had when I was working. I remember that one problem we had in common at the time was how safe it is for us to work on those projects. Being in a country where corruption is everywhere, you have got no where to turn to when you want to blow a whistle as they might be just one of them. And giving how cheap it is to hire a hitman, would you want to risk you life getting your nose to investigate that?

[Loburt]

Here's another quote they should have included in your course:

"All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good people to remain silent."

-Edmund Burke

[bkk_bound]

I wish I could easily answer that question as I'm not in your shoes nor have I ever been in that situation. It is tough when corruption is all around you & turning to a person or people that you think would help, would do just the opposite. Since we're all about quotes at this moment, let me offer another:

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy..."

-Martin Luther King

It's obviously a personal decision on how strongly you feel about the situation & what you want to do about it. Good luck on your course...

[pr0nmaster]

no speaches from me.......she's right....Thailand is not a place you want to piss off the wrong people .....

...I once read somewhere that if you are a man of power in thailand...you advertise your corruption ....show people how sinister and nasty you are....so they don't mess with you......

easy to be big mouthed until you got a gun against your head....or being edged towards a balcony.......the likely result of swimming against the stream I am afraid.....I've still got scars from trying to "claim my rights" in Thailand..

wanna be remembered as the guy who commited suicide jumping of a balcony in some seedy pattaya hotel ?

he he....at least it seems the people are getting organised against the government now though

[Loburt]

Yes, to go up against the corrupt and powerful is dangerous and some people pay for it with their lives.

But some people DO stand up to the corrupt - even here in Thailand. And they are the people who will bring about change. They are the heroes. Not all of us can be that kind of hero, but thank god there are people who can and do and we should stand with them instead of lauding cynicism and fear.

And if we're talking about forensics, what better example than the one right here in Thailand:

Dr. Pornthip Rojanasunan

A hero if there ever was one.

[pr0nmaster]

But some people DO stand up to the corrupt - even here in Thailand. And they are the people who will bring about change. They are the heroes. Not all of us can be that kind of hero, but thank god there are people who can and do and we should stand with them instead of lauding cynicism and f

yup....agree....and i'm right behind them .....(but behind ...none the less)

[robbie36]

But some people DO stand up to the corrupt - even here in Thailand. And they are the people who will bring about change.

While those who stand up against corruption should be supported, I am personally rather cynical about how much change they will and can bring about.

Corruption is so endemic to Thai business and culture that you are either forced to live with it or go elsewhere. For instance, all political parties embrace corruption - the Democrat led BMA is actually more corrupt than the previous administration IMHO.

To be honest I see the corruption here as simply a cost of doing business. I dont see much difference in slipping a policeman a couple of hundred baht in preference to going down the police station and paying a fine there.

We should perhaps be thankful that corruption is not on the scale (and to the detriment of society) as it is in say Russia where the major state assets were transfered (with the help of US investment banks) into the hands of a few individuals who then jumped ship and started playing championship manager for real.

[Joecy]

if you grew up in a culture, where you have a hirachic society structure, its normal, that people wants to show you with a gift,

that they respect you.

some are calling this corruption, to pay respect with a gift, if you want something;

but if you want something, and you are not paying respect to the person,

its looking like a confrontation for him,

so why should he help you, if you dont respect him.

[Loburt]

My experience here in Thailand with people brought up in a heriarchical culture is that when they have to hand over cash to a policeman, or some government official so that they will do what they are already being paid to do, then they are giving money.

But certainly not respect.

And for the person demanding and receiving the money, do you think he's really interested in respect?

Or just the money?

Corruption also isn't just handing over cash for services. That's a pretty narrow definition. Corruption comes in many forms and hurts people in many ways. The people who get hurt most often are the poor.

Most people in Thailand, even the poor and uneducated, do know right from wrong.

[Joecy]

My experience here in Thailand with people brought up in a heriarchical culture is that when they have to hand over cash to a policeman, or some government official so that they will do what they are already being paid to do, then they are giving money.

But certainly not respect.

And for the person demanding and receiving the money, do you think he's really interested in respect?

Or just the money?

Corruption also isn't just handing over cash for services. That's a pretty narrow definition. Corruption comes in many forms and hurts people in many ways. The people who get hurt most often are the poor.

Most people in Thailand, even the poor and uneducated, do know right from wrong.

the demanding situation is a little different, than the situation, where the money is given in an envelope, without any demand, just in the hope, to make something happend.

but if a policeman ask you for 500 bt, cause you did a mistake with your car,

or a tax controller offers you a quick solution of the controll, if you accept a certain payment, this happens in every country, and its just a question,

when the state will update its monitoring system.

So far, they already know, that a lot of state officals need a new propper payment, that they are able, to cut their credits, they had to take, just to get their job.

[Loburt]

No Joey, it doesn't happen in every country.

And when someone hands over money in an envelope in this country it's almost always because it's been made clear it is required.

The person to whom the money is being handed does have a choice. He can take it or he can refuse it.

So, once again, if that person takes the money, is he interested in respect?

Or just the money?

I think the answer is pretty clear, Joey, no matter how many ways you try to fudge it.

As for pay scales, sure, some bureaucrats and others are underpaid. Some of them still don't accept bribes. On the other hand, some very wealthy Cabinet ministers here still demand their 20% to 30%. Ever hear the phrase "it's never enough"?

And once again, corruption goes far beyond slipping a 500 baht note to a cop or the tax man. Your social hypotheses doesn't address any of the other forms and the harm they do to the country and its people.

[Joecy]

No Joey, it doesn't happen in every country.

...

So, once again, if that person takes the money, is he interested in respect?

Or just the money?

I think the answer is pretty clear, Joey, no matter how many ways you try to fudge it..

not everyone, who takes the envelope, can keep it for their own,

cause you take, and you have to give,

thats the way, protection works.

Those, without backup, will end up on the headlines.

rap means serving, and even if you are in a higher position,

you have to serve in this position, to proof, that you deserve the respect of the higher ranking, who brought you in this job.

So, if you call it coruption, the word just gives the assoziation of someone, who is breaking the law for money, and that doesnt suite the thai situation pretty well,

and in our country, we know about stock cases with insider information

too well,

so nobody is perfect,

just my 5 cent, but never mind :wink:

[Loburt]

So, if you call it coruption, the word just gives the assoziation of someone, who is breaking the law for money, and that doesnt suite the thai situation pretty well,

It suits the Thai situation perfectly well, Joey, because it IS against the LAW here, and they are breaking the law for money.

Not for "respect" as you claim. Passing money up the food chain isn't showing respect for the person who gave you the job. It's a requierment and a demand. It's called bribery and extortion.

By your illogic, you could also say:

if you call it genocide, the word just gives the association of someone murdering millions of people to exterminate them, and that doesn't suit the Cambodian situation pretty well,

After all Pol Pot was trying to build an agrarian paradise. It's just our Western bias that labels brutally murdering 1.7 million people genocide.

Wake up.

[Joecy]

It suits the Thai situation perfectly well, Joey, because it IS against the LAW here, and they are breaking the law for money.

Not for "respect" as you claim. Passing money up the food chain isn't showing respect for the person who gave you the job. It's a requierment and a demand. It's called bribery and extortion.

By your illogic, you could also say:

if you call it genocide, the word just gives the association of someone murdering millions of people to exterminate them, and that doesn't suit the Cambodian situation pretty well,

After all Pol Pot was trying to build an agrarian paradise. It's just our Western bias that labels brutally murdering 1.7 million people genocide.

Wake up.

ok, lets put the focus on Somchai Khunpluem, you might know his story,

http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/97/0328/is1.html

http://www.bangkokpost.net/election2005/east.html

so if you think, Khunpluem and his sons represent the criminal and corupt Thailand,

why are the sons so successful, when they win the election, by the votes of the majority of the thai people in their region, if they are standing so obviously against the law ?

b.t.w.

Concerning cambodia, I would also call it a genocide, but not driven by the idea of an agrarian paradise, but by the ideology of a "clean gen pool" and a "virgin camdodian mind".

This clean gen pool thinking is not all over jet, and can be found all over in asia, when you speak with luukrueng.

For myself, race doesn`t matter, but you will find this also in the USA, if you take a look on asian websites, like

http://profile.myspace.com or

http://www.asianavenue.com they call it race, or ethnicity,

when they give the % of their blood (95 % thai 5 % lao, and so on).

[Loburt]

Yes Kamnan Po and his sons do represent one part of the criminal and corrupt element of Thailand.

Why do they win elections?

For the same reasons why if John Gotti had been on the ballot in Howard Beach in Queens, New York City when he was alive he would have been elected.

Do you really want John Gotti in Congress? Do you think the majority of Americans wanted John Gotti in Congress?

Do you think that negates corruption, or excuses it or justifies it? Makes it okay?

Do you think Kamnan Po and his sons stood for office because they wanted respect?

Or did they just want the money?

In the form of access to the public funds that get siphoned off out of government all the time, aside from the bribes and kickbacks.

Please note that Kamnan Po has been convicted of corruption and murder in two different trials and will soon spend the rest of his life in jail.

The people in Kamnan Po's district might have been happy to accept his money and send him to parliament. But a lot of other people in Thailand are fed up with having godfathers in parliament. And I doubt they would take kindly to some foreigner telling them that it's okay because it's their culture.

And do you know the first thing about elections in Thailand?

Most votes are bought and paid for. Thai elections are also extremely violent. I wouldn't want to be a vote canvasser for an opponent of Kamnan Po or his sons. Several vote canvassers are shot dead every election.

How naive and uninformed can you possibly be, Joey?

[Loburt]

As for Cambodia, you don't have the slightest idea what went on there, Joey.

[Joecy]

Most votes are bought and paid for. Thai elections are also extremely violent. I wouldn't want to be a vote canvasser for an opponent of Kamnan Po or his sons. Several vote canvassers are shot dead every election.

How naive and uninformed can you possibly be, Joey?

ok, so you think, most votes are bought and paid for,

thats the reason for the success of these people.

I would say, there are votes, that are bought and paid for,

but not the most votes.

So, IMO, there must be something else, that drive people, to vote for them,

but I know, you dont believe in the cultural factor,

and you call me naive on that.

May be, you also know about the cambodian situation a lot,

but may be, you give the site

http://www.cambodiangenocide.org/front.htm a try, and also the book

Race, Power, and Genocide in Cambodia Under the Khmer Rouge, 1975-79 by Ben Kiernan, isnt that bad,

nevertheless, have a nice weekend

[Loburt]

If you think that most votes are not bought and paid for, then that's undeniable evidence that you don't know a thing about what goes on in Thai elections.

If you think I'm wrong about the prevalence of vote buying here, then I suggest you contact PNET or ANFREL which monitor the elections and ask them.

I've read Kiernan's book, and Chandler's, and almost a dozen others on Cambodia and have been there. In fact, I just came back from Cambodia two days ago.

Your statement that Pol Pot was not trying to create a Maoist-inspired agrarian utopia and isntead was only aiming to eliminate anyone who wasn't pure blooded Khmer is simply wrong.

Yes, he wanted to eliminate anyone who wasn't pure blooded Khmer. But he also murdered hundreds of thousands of pure blooded Khmers.

And what was the point of emptying every town and city and forcing the entire population to work on farming collectives if not to create an agrarian utopia (slash gulag)?

[Joecy]

If you think that most votes are not bought and paid for, then that's undeniable evidence that you don't know a thing about what goes on in Thai elections.

If you think I'm wrong about the prevalence of vote buying here, then I suggest you contact PNET or ANFREL which monitor the elections and ask them.

I've read Kiernan's book, and Chandler's, and almost a dozen others on Cambodia and have been there. In fact, I just came back from Cambodia two days ago.

Your statement that Pol Pot was not trying to create a Maoist-inspired agrarian utopia and isntead was only aiming to eliminate anyone who wasn't pure blooded Khmer is simply wrong.

Yes, he wanted to eliminate anyone who wasn't pure blooded Khmer. But he also murdered hundreds of thousands of pure blooded Khmers.

And what was the point of emptying every town and city and forcing the entire population to work on farming collectives if not to create an agrarian utopia (slash gulag)?

Shure, I think, that not most of the votes are bought,

even Anfrel reported, that it happend significant in certain areas, but never spoke, that most of the votes in Thailand where bought.

http://www.anfrel.org/en/pics/book/thai_mission2005.pdf page 44

also this part was nice,

"...the muslim owner of a local restaurant told observers that he would accept money from anyone who offered it, but he would cast his vote for the candidate and party of his choice."

so, who can say, you can buy the votes of the thai people,

cause everybody is free, to decide in the end, what they do.

As for cambodia, beside the blood question, I mentioned the "virgin camdodian mind", that drove Pol Pot, to kill interlectuals, people with western contacts, but also the old cultural elite, cause he was aiming for people, with a pure simple mind.

His agrarian way was only the way, to reach this aim.

Cause we seem to have arguments about a question of definitions, this plattform isnt perfect for that, to clear both definitions about a mao dictatorship, or about the change of Pol Pot, from his ideas in his Paris-time, or his propaganda to the chiniese neighbours.

[Loburt]

"also this part was nice,

"...the muslim owner of a local restaurant told observers that he would accept money from anyone who offered it, but he would cast his vote for the candidate and party of his choice."

so, who can say, you can buy the votes of the thai people,

cause everybody is free, to decide in the end, what they do. "

Who can say? Well ANFREL, Pollwatch and just about everyone who had studied and monitored elections here for the past 18 years or so. The muslim guy is the minority when it comes to voter behavior.

Posting link after link is just a cover for the fact that you've never been here for an election and seen what goes on, yet believe you know enough to make pronouncements about Thai culture, beliefs and voter behavior.

You've never been upcountry where in many places people are not free, in the end, to decide what they do - unless they want to face a violent reprisal.

Why are you so driven to justify and excuse cheating, theft, violence, corruption and abusing people? And then you say it's alright, it's the culture, and everyplace is the same.

"As for cambodia, beside the blood question, I mentioned the "virgin camdodian mind", that drove Pol Pot, to kill interlectuals, people with western contacts, but also the old cultural elite, cause he was aiming for people, with a pure simple mind.

His agrarian way was only the way, to reach this aim. "

No Joey, once again you've got it ass backwards. He killed intellectuals and city people who had the ability to think and question what he was doing so he could create his agrarian utopia with him in charge as the all powerful leader.

Not because he was obsessed with everyone in the country having a "virgin Cambodian mind."

[Joecy]

so, for the cambodian point, we can close this subject.

You believe, Pol Pots agrarian state was his aim,

I believe, the agrarian state was just a step on his way, to create a new cambodian citizen.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

back to your point, - most of Thailand votes are bought, so the result of the elections are based on corruption -

-...guy is the minority when it comes to voter behavior.-

who can say that ?

--Who can say? Well ANFREL,--

where ? could you find sutch a specific generalizied statement from an reliable source,

the Anfrel link is lacking this kind of statements, and is reporting very focused on the specific regions.

--- You've never been upcountry where in many places people are not free, in the end, to decide what they do - unless they want to face a violent reprisal.

Why are you so driven to justify and excuse cheating, theft, violence, corruption and abusing people? And then you say it's alright, it's the culture, and everyplace is the same. ---

Shure, I ve been upcountry, but my expirience was different.

Well, this reminds me on a discussion about the freedom of indian people in the indish cast system, where one NGO said, that India did sign the human rights declaration, and should now change the system, and my point of view was about the fact, that india was interpretating this signed declaration totaly different. So, why did they sign the contracts anyway, when the untouchables for exp. wherent equal with the sixt ?

Cause this countries would have faced trade difficulties, without signing.

All this countries have their own juridical law system, to go after those, who are breaking the law, but they dont need an import of western values.

If your next point will be, you go for the law, look on the law, that prostitution isnt allowed in Thailand, and what is happening ?

And my answer will be, that there is also a different interpretation of this law, that wasnt abolished after WWII.

I wouldnt justify and excuse cheating, theft, violence, corruption and abusing people,

but as a guest in a country, I wouldnt interfere in their development,

and wouldnt judge it from a different cultural background.

[Loburt]

so, for the cambodian point, we can close this subject.

You believe, Pol Pots agrarian state was his aim,

I believe, the agrarian state was just a step on his way, to create a new cambodian citizen.

And I think that with your mental capacity and thought processes you would make a perfect citizen for him.

back to your point, - most of Thailand votes are bought, so the result of the elections are based on corruption -

-...guy is the minority when it comes to voter behavior.-

who can say that ?

--Who can say? Well ANFREL,--

where ? could you find sutch a specific generalizied statement from an reliable source,

the Anfrel link is lacking this kind of statements, and is reporting very focused on the specific regions.

--- You've never been upcountry where in many places people are not free, in the end, to decide what they do - unless they want to face a violent reprisal.

Why are you so driven to justify and excuse cheating, theft, violence, corruption and abusing people? And then you say it's alright, it's the culture, and everyplace is the same. ---

Shure, I ve been upcountry, but my expirience was different.

Joey, I've been here for 11 years and five national elections and have interviewed the head of PollWatch, the Thai representative for Anfrel, election commissioners, leaders and candidates of all the major political parties, academics whose speciality is corruption in Thailand, NGOs who organize voter registration campaigns and the voters themselves.

Vote buying is massive here and elections are corrupt.

Whatever your upcountry experience is, I don't really care. Because it's obvious you don't have the slightest idea what goes on in this country.

Well, this reminds me on a discussion about the freedom of indian people in the indish cast system, where one NGO said, that India did sign the human rights declaration, and should now change the system, and my point of view was about the fact, that india was interpretating this signed declaration totaly different. So, why did they sign the contracts anyway, when the untouchables for exp. wherent equal with the sixt ?

Cause this countries would have faced trade difficulties, without signing.

All this countries have their own juridical law system, to go after those, who are breaking the law, but they dont need an import of western values.

Is there a point in there somewhere Joecy? Does it have anything to do with Thailand? Because I'm not here to debate India's caste system.

If your point is vote buying, initimidation, violence and other means of corrupting the democratic process is okay here because it's the culture, well, I made this point before and I'll make it again:

Many Thais don't agree that that is an integral part of their culture. Just as vote buying existed in Western societies many decades ago and was by and large eradicated, they also want their society and political system to move past this corrupt stage. Some of them have put their lives on the line to try and change it. Some have paid with their lives.

I know they would find it highly insulting to have someone sitting in Dusseldorf or wherever it is you are, telling them it's all okay for thieves and tinpot dictators to steal their elections because you think corruption is an integral part of Thai culture.

Frankly, Joey, you have a lot of nerve.

I wouldnt justify and excuse cheating, theft, violence, corruption and abusing people,

but as a guest in a country, I wouldnt interfere in their development,

and wouldnt judge it from a different cultural background.

You already have tried to justify, and pretty poorly, I might add.

As for being a guest in this country and judging from a different cultural background, well, that's what the corrupt thieves who steal elections like to say when they are criticized by foreign news media, governments and observers.

But I've also seen Thais who do not accept corruption as part of their culture thank the foreign media, governments and observers for speaking up and telling it like it is.

Because they feel the same.

[Loburt]

From 'Thailand's Boom and Bust'

by Pasuk Phongpaichit

Economist

Chulalongkorn University

also author of 'Corruption and Democracy in Thailand'

How to Win an Election

Thai elections are major economic events. The Thai Farmers Bank Research Center reckoned 20 to 30 billion baht was spent during the 1996 campaign - more than on the US presidential campaign. Much of it went for simple handouts to voters. All the candidates hand out cash. It's part of qualifying as a candidate.

[Joecy]

As I ask you for concrete figures, how many Thais take the money, you answered with the link, but there are only vague arguments,

Much of it went for simple handouts to voters

so lets say, - there are no concrete figures, to proof it,

how many thais take money, just estimations.

All the candidates hand out cash. It's part of qualifying as a candidate.

so every candidate is corrupt, if you take this for an evidence of corruption.

So where is the choice, if every candidate offers the money ?

you said,

many Thais don't agree that that is an integral part of their culture.

So if many (how many ?) dont take the money from every candidate,

the small part of thais, who take the money, will be a minor problem.

But if only a small part of thais agree, that that isnt an integral part of their culture, most of the thais will see it as a part of their culture.

But I like your last sentence,

But I've also seen Thais who do not accept corruption as part of their culture thank the foreign media, governments and observers for speaking up and telling it like it is.

The majority of Thais can decide, what kind of candidates they want, if they take money, or not, and if they want to change their cultural habbits, or not.

I like your intention, to do something positive for the thai people,

although you have to learn, how to controll your temper, when you left your level of a decent discussion.

[Loburt]

The majority of Thais can decide, what kind of candidates they want, if they take money, or not, and if they want to change their cultural habbits, or not.

Yes, Joey, Thais will decide what they want for themselves. But anyone can see this is a society that's in transition and is divided. For people who have been affected by, and are sick of the rotten elements of thier society (and all socities have them), to hear someone who isn't actually here insist that either it's not really happening that much, and what is happpening is just your culture so no point in judging, must be just a bit, well, whatever.

When you call it a part of culture in the way you phrased it, it's like you're saying this is an innate part of your character, who you are. It's almost immutable. If you want to argue corruption is part of Thai cutlure, then you should also acknowledge that cultures change. All our societies were at one time feudal and driven by barter. As I posted earlier, our societies had similar types of corruption (we have dfferent types now) not that long ago. People, including many people here, do not accept this as an immutable part of their national character. Rather than dismiss corruption as a part of the culture, better to say, if you want to get rid of corruption you will have to work harder on changing the culture.

In the end, believe whatever you want.