What about food?

[Sylver]

well said Sylver, let us eat the food like nature intented it

i believe we all stopped doing that a long long time ago !!!

about 10,000 years ago, when we gave up hunting and gathering and took up farming, thereby taking up breeding animals and plants to suit our needs---in other words, 10,000 years ago, when we took up genetic engineering.

excellent - ZBH has a point... furthering this idea - my question is 'when is a hybrid not a hybrid'? discuss

No, he doesn't and that point is rather well covered in the video...but then again, you would have to have seen the video ...

[Sylver]

sylver - the point is not well covered in what is a very subjective film ... my question still stands - when is a hybrid not a hybrid?

Where is the departure from 'hybrid' to genetically 'manipulated'? is it a natural progression, or more of the same?

Am I to understand that you have seen the video?

Anyway, if you have and still you missed the difference, here is a short explanation: Pretty much all our crops are some hybrids of some kind.

That has been going on for thousand of years and I have absolutely no issue on that. Selective breeding and cross-breeding similar to what could occur within nature is fair-play in my book.

Regular cross breeding, as occuring in nature, is simply the "mating" of 2 different plants. The genes of one plant combine themselves with the genes of the other plant and produce a new plant.

Selective breeding is an extension of the law of the strongest: You pick out the plants with the best characteristics (or at least the characteristics you are looking for, like resistance to frost, for instance) and breed them together. You select the best performing kids and you start again.

When do we cross the line into GE? When you start cutting this or that specific bit of DNA and then use a gene gun or a bacteria/virus as a vector to force the new DNA bit into the host cell.

This of course is a coarse explanation, but it should nevertheless bring to light the fundamental difference between what has been actually happening in nature for thousands of years (cross-breeding) and a wholly artificial approach (GE).

The odds for the exact genome of a GE plant to occur in nature are very very remote indeed.

or is the film your only source of muddled reference? i usually find it helpful to look at all points of view in the discussion including looking at biotechs/food as having the potential to eliminate starvation..

GE crops are found to be underperforming compared to similar non-GE crops. Sorry mate, but ending starvation is a PR agenda for these companies.

If the goal was really to end starvation, would Monsanto spend nearly 2 billion USD for a technology designed to prevent plants from reproducing themselves ?

[Loburt]

are you guys still arguing about this? what a bunch of baloney. take a break. go get a bite to eat.

[zeusbheld]

Anyway, if you have and still you missed the difference, here is a short explanation: Pretty much all our crops are some hybrids of some kind.

That has been going on for thousand of years and I have absolutely no issue on that. Selective breeding and cross-breeding similar to what could occur within nature is fair-play in my book.

Regular cross breeding, as occuring in nature, is simply the "mating" of 2 different plants. The genes of one plant combine themselves with the genes of the other plant and produce a new plant.

Selective breeding is an extension of the law of the strongest: You pick out the plants with the best characteristics (or at least the characteristics you are looking for, like resistance to frost, for instance) and breed them together. You select the best performing kids and you start again.

you grossly misapprehend the nature of artificial selection. nature doesn't select for traits humans want. humans do. it is humans engineering plants and animals according to their will.

if you have 'no issue on that' you haven't done your homework. maybe google can help you... do you think we got healthier when we started growing our own grains and gave up hunter-gatherer lifestyle? look it up. hint: overall skeleton size and condition should tip you off as to what the correct answer is.

This of course is a coarse explanation, but it should nevertheless bring to light the fundamental difference between what has been actually happening in nature for thousands of years (cross-breeding) and a wholly artificial approach (GE).

again: if you think that artificial selection is what has been happening in nature, you don't understand the first thing about evolution.

[zeusbheld]

They may be wrong on some issues but the many valid points they make should not be discarded because of a few inaccuracies here and there and a definite desire to impinge on the viewer.

so the fact that they didnt make it 2 minutes into the video without seriously screwing up the science wrong doesn't mean i shouldn't trust their video about science? hmmmm 'interesting' logic.

Considering you are not interested discussing the subject further, I will leave it at that. I don't have much to add to what has been said already anyway.

your definition of 'discussing' tends to mean 'agreeing with you.'

Other visitors are more than welcome to read the thread and make up their own minds on the subject.

thanks for your permission. i actually thought that was up to the moderators and site ownership, but since it has your blessing, how can they refuse?

or is this subtle version of those typical conspiracy-theorist admonitions to "keep an open mind"? hmmmm other visitors are more than welcome to read the thread and make up their own mind on that too, i suppose.

[Sylver]

sylver - i was oing to pass you a shovel, but i see you're digging a big black hole for yourself without help from me

Thanks but keep it. I think you might just need it.

As for Zeus, I notice you are still responding to my posts.

Don't bother, I did take your advice on that.

[zeusbheld]

As for Zeus, I notice you are still responding to my posts.

Don't bother, I did take your advice on that.

i see you have appointed yourself moderator of the thread again.

don't bother.

[zeusbheld]

<<Why is it that we, as customers, can't have a label to tell us whether the food we buy is genetically engineered? Don't we have the right to know what we are buying?>>

I agree with you on this point. There's no reason that GM foods should not be

labeled for consumers to decide. But GM foods are already in many products from canola or soybean oil to the cornflakes you and I eat.

I am well aware of that. However, given a choice, I would choose non GE food. Problem is that it isn't marked, so finding non GE food...

i'm not 100 percent certain, but i don't think you can get 'organic' certification on genetically engineered food.

additionally, organic foods avoid a number of things that are proven problems, such as pesticides and beef being given hormones and animal proteins (i'm not sure it's true but i read somewhere that mad cow disease is linked to cows being fed animal proteins)

not surprisingly, it's more expensive. most likely it will stay that way, as it's harder to grow organic (lower yields, pest and parasite problems, etc). if the demand were there, though, everyone, even the big boys, would be peddling organic product.

[bored]

kind of shite. can we talk about GM tequillas and so on? damn i really miss the good old days on this barge (tf). hey mr admin_tf.... b53 anyone?

for the ppl who don't know who i am, please ignore me...

for the ppl who do know who i am, please ignore me...