Anders Fogh Rasmussen : New NATO secretary-general

[pandorea]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090404/ap_on_re_eu/eu_new_nato_chief

STRASBOURG, France ? NATO says that Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen has been unanimously named as the alliance's new secretary-general.

Turkey was strongly opposed to Fogh Rasmussen before the alliance reached consensus. He infuriated many Muslims by defending freedom of speech during an uproar over a Danish newspaper's publication of the cartoons in 2005. He has also angered Turkey by opposing its membership in the European Union.

Current Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer of the Netherlands says that the decision was made unanimously Saturday at a summit marking the 60th anniversary of the alliance.

Fogh Rasmussen says he is honored and it is a historic day for him and for Denmark.

De Hoop Scheffer's term expires this summer.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

STRASBOURG, France (AP) ? NATO was deadlocked Saturday over the choice of a new secretary-general after Turkey blocked the candidacy of a Dane who angered Muslims by defending the right to print cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, officials said.

Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen was seen as the front-runner but he infuriated many Muslims by defending freedom of speech during an uproar over a Danish newspaper's publication of the cartoons in 2005. He has also angered Turkey by opposing its membership in the European Union.

Turkey has told other NATO nations that it remained opposed to Fogh Rasmussen on the grounds that he would be a bad choice at a time when NATO was trying to win support from Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan, according to a diplomat from a NATO country who asked not to be identified because he was not authorized to speak to the media.

There was no decision at a working dinner Friday and no progress was made Saturday morning despite intense efforts, the diplomat said.

All 28 NATO members must agree on the choice of a new leader.

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi created a stir Saturday after making the German chancellor wait while he spoke with Turkey's prime minister about the negotiations.

Berlusconi was seen talking on his mobile phone as he exited his car on the German side of the Rhine River ahead of a symbolic walk across the Europa Bridge to France.

In images shown live on European television stations, Berlusconi appeared to gesture to his phone to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, as if to explain why he wasn't proceeding with other NATO leaders to be greeted by her.

A visibly perplexed Merkel eventually went ahead without Berlusconi, who was deep in conversation and walked toward the bank of the river as he talked on the phone instead of joining the other chiefs of state.

An Italian government official said Berlusconi had phoned Recep Tayyip Erdogan in a "last-minute" bid to try to persuade him to overcome Turkey's resistance to Fogh Rasmussen's candidacy. Officials from two other countries also confirmed the conversation.

All spoke on condition of anonymity because of the ongoing, sensitive negotiations.

The term of the alliance's current head, Dutch diplomat Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, runs out Aug. 1.

The secretary-general's duties include running the day-to-day business of the alliance's headquarters in Brussels. The post has in the past been filled in private consultations between member states, and the choices provoked little public interest.

Turkish television said Fogh Rasmussen had attended a meeting between President Barack Obama and Gul on Saturday morning.

Other possible candidates for NATO's top post include Canada's Defense Minister Peter MacKay, Britain's former Defense minister Des Browne, and Norway's Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere.

Denmark has twice before offered candidates for the NATO job and lost.

[Nelis]

******* Turks, they didn't mind anymore when a Turk was appointed deputy...

Should have ******* kicked them out of NATO in stead.

[SiamHotel]

good news: now, in a gesture of gratitude, could you please take our #@%*# idiotic p.m. aka berlusclown up to greenland, shoot him & feed the whales for easter???

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/03/berlusconi-rattles-queen_n_182851.html

[MichaelMyers]

f*cking Turks, they didn't mind anymore when a Turk was appointed deputy...

Should have f*cking kicked them out of NATO in stead.

Thanks for your good comments about my country.There 2 main reasons behind conflict.1-Denmark is letting ROJ TV, tv channel of PKK a which is recognised as a terrorist organisation by Europe broadcasting on their land.Last time i checked NATO was against terrorism.We wanted the broadcast to end, and soon it will end.

Second thing is about cartoon thing.NATO is heavily dealing with conflicts in Muslim countries.It would not be wise someone who is hated widely by Muslim world to be secretary-general.We wanted a official apology, and it is said we will get it soon.

And yes i also think that they should kick us out of NATO.You Dutch people really prove that what you are capable of in Kosovo and Srebrenica.You were supposed to defend civilians but what did you when you see Serbians?Run away.During that time Bosnians were writing U.N. on stray dogs with blue spray cans because they felt that they were the same(dogs and UN troops), they did nothing but walk around.Thats how you Dutch people defend the ones who you are responsible of.

The Srebrenica Massacre, also known as the Srebrenica Genocide,[1][2][3][4] was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,000 Bosniak men and boys in the area of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina, by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of General Ratko Mladić during the Bosnian War. In addition to the VRS, a paramilitary unit from Serbia known as the Scorpions participated in the massacre.[5][6] The United Nations had declared Srebrenica a UN-protected "safe area", but that did not prevent the massacre, even though 400 armed Dutch peacekeepers were present at the time.[7]

The Srebrenica massacre is the largest mass murder in Europe since World War II.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

Survivors of Bosnians killed in Srebrenica are suing the Dutch government and the United Nations for damages, on the grounds that UN peacekeepers failed to adequately protect the population.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,486755,00.html

It seems that you are only good at drinking with criminals of war and accepting gifts from them:

Bosnian Serb army Commander General Ratko Mladic, left, drinks toast with Dutch U.N Commander Ton Karremans, second right, while others unidentified look on in village of Potocari, in this July 12 1995 file photo. Karremans gave a testimony at the Yugoslav War Crimes Tribunal in the hearings against Bosnian Serb leaders Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic, Wednesday July 3,

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,425024,00.html

I do not know i spend my sunday afternoon teaching history to a Dutch who can not even make sentences without using the F***.

[Nelis]

Of course 400 Turks would have completely wiped out the Serbian army with their bare hands....

What exactly do you need an apology for? A few drawings?

[MichaelMyers]

I am an agnostic so i do not care about pictures or religion at all.But if you offend Muslim countries and you are fighting most of your battles on Muslim soil, it may be a wise thing not to offend them.

And calling for reinforcements or letting a couple of civilians inside instead of sending to arms of murderers and rapists can be a good idea too.But somehow you prefer drinking with the criminals and receiving gifts, giving away your weapons and uniforms and even hug and assist the Serbs.It seems that you can not even surrender properly:

A few frightened Dutchmen even laid down their weapons -- a total of 199 rifles, 25 submachine guns, 28 pistols and 29 machine guns.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,486755,00.html

Some of the Dutch United Nations soldiers who failed to prevent the massacre of Srebenica in July 1995 gave the Serbs a back-slapping welcome, handed over their uniforms and even actively helped to separate Bosnian men from their families, say relatives of the 8,000 men and boys who were murdered

And then Sabaheta saw something she still can barely believe: A group of Serbian soldiers ran across some Dutch troops - and the soldiers greeted one another happily. They threw their caps in the air and some even hugged one another. "We were shocked," said Sabaheta Fejzic.

True, there were only 500 Dutch troops against an overwhelmingly superior force of 15,000 Serbs. But why didn't they request back-up, why didn't they ask for air strikes? And why didn't they at least surrender properly, instead of - as eyewitnesses say - even assisting the Serbs?

And why did the Dutch commander in charge, Colonel Ton Karremans, even drink a toast with mass murderer Ratko Mladic whose Serbian troops were wreaking havoc outside?

Hotic only knows that the Serbs, after drinking a toast to the dead, then took her husband and one of her brothers with them

I can understand being scared, being outnumbered but hugging the killers...I do not know.

[LasseDK]

Thanks for your good comments about my country.There 2 main reasons behind conflict.1-Denmark is letting ROJ TV, tv channel of PKK a which is recognised as a terrorist organisation by Europe broadcasting on their land.Last time i checked NATO was against terrorism.We wanted the broadcast to end, and soon it will end.

Get this thing right mate. Denmark is a country where we have free speech, as long as you stick to a set of rules to prevent targeting racially, or minorities in a offensive way, its absolutely legal to speak your mind in this country.

If ROJ are supported by PKK, then why havent turkey supplied the evidence yet ? you shouldnt doubt one second that if we find proof that a radiostation, or even a t-shirt print business has economic ties to a terrororginasation, that it will be shut down instantly.

Turkey has an issue with Kurdish people we all know and we have to make sure its not because you just want to shut kurdish people down if they are doing something completely legal - but if its related economically to a kurdish terrororganisation then it will be stopped ofourse.

But we need the evidence, and it hasnt been there yet, so hopefully we will find out, unless there is proof, it wont happen.

Bear in mind that we have extremist muslim organisations here that are allowed to speak freely even though they preach sharia and taleban and are not in any way something we as a nation can use for anything - we actually also got a nazi-radio (with 4 listeners or so) that also are allowed to speak freely.

As long as theese people doesnt do anything illegal, and their only problem is that they represent values that most of us doesnt like, then this is accepted in Denmark.

We have this attitude towards free speech because we fundementally think that its better to let theese people talk than to let them get martyrized underground, as we trust people to be able to make their own judgement.

Second thing is about cartoon thing.NATO is heavily dealing with conflicts in Muslim countries.It would not be wise someone who is hated widely by Muslim world to be secretary-general.We wanted a official apology, and it is said we will get it soon.

Again free speech. Im really really blown away that you hold this attitude ? that you feel assured that you will get an official apology for the Cartoons from our primeminister ???

The Cartoons was done by a newspaper here - it might be a shock for you, but our papers are free and not controlled by state and secret police. The Neweditor can apologize for making the decision to print them, the muslim Iman who went to egypt and made all this explode into burning our embassies down and killing people HE could apologize for distributing distorted information about what actually was printed. He made his own drawings and made some sick disinformation. He ended up eaving denmark, not forced but out of shame of what he had done.

If you ask the majority of people here in denmark, they would think the cartoons was not needed, personally looking at the drawing its nothing, im impressed that people can get so crazed by religion that they can react to something like that. If i had seen it before printing i wouldnt have imagined that it would cause such a fuzz.

But i think it was unnessecary to print them, out of the fact that what good would it do ? it doesnt do any good at all, only thing it has done is to upset alot of people, and put a crosshair on free speech, that apparently doesnt thriwe that good in parts of the world.

But again, it was a newseditor who decided to print them in his own newspaper - they then went around the world. How can a danish primeminister who has absolutely NOTHING to do with the decision to print them - go out and apology something "officially" ??

Thats why you never get an apology, you can get a personal attitude towards it if youre lucky from our PM, and im pretty sure he think the newseditor ´made a stupid decision, but he didnt make an illegal decision.

We are governed by laws, not by feelings and religion in Denmark.

[LasseDK]

I am an agnostic so i do not care about pictures or religion at all.But if you offend Muslim countries and you are fighting most of your battles on Muslim soil, it may be a wise thing not to offend them.

do not know.

Its not wise we can totally agree about that, and the majority of danish and alot of people would think the same.

We are involved in a couple of wars yes, and they by chance happens to be muslim "soil" as you state it, its nothing to do with "muslims" or with Islam - i hope ?

Problem with this "islam unity" is that you apparently within this religion of yours can have the most distorted and sick people governing states - all in the name of the religion, and you back them up ?

Afghanistan ? lets beat and kill and rape women, lets put them into big bags and make their live a complete and utterly mess - by law.They just wanted to pass a new law now where it was allowed for a man to force his wife to have sex 4 times aweek nomatter what her opinion was.

They say its muslim, its sharia - and bam, then its alright ? then they are in this "muslim unity" and we are attacking "muslim soil" ?

Do you as - being on muslim soil - represent the same human values ?

[MichaelMyers]

Thanks for your good comments about my country.There 2 main reasons behind conflict.1-Denmark is letting ROJ TV, tv channel of PKK a which is recognised as a terrorist organisation by Europe broadcasting on their land.Last time i checked NATO was against terrorism.We wanted the broadcast to end, and soon it will end.

Get this thing right mate. Denmark is a country where we have free speech, as long as you stick to a set of rules to prevent targeting racially, or minorities in a offensive way, its absolutely legal to speak your mind in this country.

If ROJ are supported by PKK, then why havent turkey supplied the evidence yet ? you shouldnt doubt one second that if we find proof that a radiostation, or even a t-shirt print business has economic ties to a terrororginasation, that it will be shut down instantly.

Turkey has an issue with Kurdish people we all know and we have to make sure its not because you just want to shut kurdish people down if they are doing something completely legal - but if its related economically to a kurdish terrororganisation then it will be stopped ofourse.

But we need the evidence, and it hasnt been there yet, so hopefully we will find out, unless there is proof, it wont happen.

We have this attitude towards free speech because we fundementally think that its better to let theese people talk than to let them get martyrized underground, as we trust people to be able to make their own judgement.

Second thing is about cartoon thing.NATO is heavily dealing with conflicts in Muslim countries.It would not be wise someone who is hated widely by Muslim world to be secretary-general.We wanted a official apology, and it is said we will get it soon.

Again free speech. Im really really blown away that you hold this attitude ? that you feel assured that you will get an official apology for the Cartoons from our primeminister ???

The Cartoons was done by a newspaper here - it might be a shock for you, but our papers are free and not controlled by state and secret police. The Neweditor can apologize for making the decision to print them, the muslim Iman who went to egypt and made all this explode into burning our embassies down and killing people HE could apologize for distributing distorted information about what actually was printed. He made his own drawings and made some sick disinformation. He ended up eaving denmark, not forced but out of shame of what he had done.

But again, it was a newseditor who decided to print them in his own newspaper - they then went around the world. How can a danish primeminister who has absolutely NOTHING to do with the decision to print them - go out and apology something "officially" ??

Thats why you never get an apology, you can get a personal attitude towards it if youre lucky from our PM, and im pretty sure he think the newseditor ´made a stupid decision, but he didnt make an illegal decision.

We are governed by laws, not by feelings and religion in Denmark.

Well, the thing about apology does'nt come from my personal comments or feelings:

HURRIYET

--HE WILL APOLOGIZE

Turkey conditionally said yes to Danish Premier Rasmussen being appointed as the next NATO secretary general. Rasmussen will apologize for cartoon crisis regarding Prophet Mohammed. Also, Roj TV will be closed.

From the package: NATO's deputy secretary-general, a high-level official of the organization responsible for disarmament and NATO's special representative to Afghanistan will be Turkish. Denmark will be urged to take action regarding Roj TV. Rasmussen will apologize for the cartoons about Prophet Mohammed. More time will be given Turkey for opening of the country's ports to Greek Cypriots.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/11367548.asp?scr=1

In my posts i am really trying to be objective and behave in good manners.Almost most of the things i wrote comes from a legit source.I know that we are not the most advanced country in freedom of speech department or our democracy may have flaws but most of the comments comes from complete personal issues (associating me with the things that taliban do) and ignorance (kick the f*** Turks out of NATO)

The exremists you hate so much are the products of Western World and USA.they were heavily supported during cold war and used as a fighting hand against Russians.After the war ended what do you exoect this people will do?They started to fight against the current regime?How was Afghanistan before 1980?How is it now?Same thing with Iran, USA and England heavily influenced this counties future.They installed sheikh messed with the political regime .Western world creates monsters first, later try to kill them and critise them.Well, get your hands of first, critise later:

Mossadegh is remembered in Iran for having been voted into power through a democratic election, nationalizing Iran's British-owned oil fields, and being deposed in a military coup d'état organized by an American CIA operative and aided by the British MI6. Thus foreign powers were involved in both the installation and restoration of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi.

For oil western world deposed a elected politician.Where is your respect to democracy?I believe Iranians had the right to vote for the politicians but western world did not care because there was (is) oil to suck.In such an political unstable environment it is not hard to imagine mullas gaining power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_revolution

This is how was Afghanistan before Western and Russian intervention:

Once in power, the PDPA moved to permit freedom of religion and carried out an ambitious land reform, waiving farmers' debts countrywide. They also made a number of statements on women?s rights and introduced women to political life. A prominent example was Anahita Ratebzad, who was a major Marxist leader and a member of the Revolutionary Council. Ratebzad wrote the famous May 28, 1978 New Kabul Times editorial which declared: ?Privileges which women, by right, must have are equal education, job security, health services, and free time to rear a healthy generation for building the future of the country ? Educating and enlightening women is now the subject of close government attention.?[51]

Many people in the cities including Kabul either welcomed or were ambivalent to these policies. However, the secular nature of the government made it unpopular with religiously conservative Afghans in the villages and the countryside, who favoured traditionalist 'Islamic' law.

The U.S. saw the situation as a prime opportunity to weaken the Soviet Union. As part of a Cold War strategy, in 1979 the United States government (under President Jimmy Carter) began to covertly fund forces ranged against the pro-Soviet government, although warned that this might prompt a Soviet intervention, (according to National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski).[52] The Mujahideen belonged to various different factions, but all shared, to varying degrees, a similarly conservative 'Islamic' ideology.

Hey wait, they were actually making land reforms, introducing women into political law, and waiwed debts of the workers.There was even a speech by Marxist lady.Wait, this is Afghanistan right?Where is sheria?Oh this will come later after USA decided to interfere the countries political life and support mujaaheets.

The Soviet withdrawal from the DRA was seen as an ideological victory in the U.S., which had backed the Mujahideen through three U.S. presidential administrations in order to counter Soviet influence in the vicinity of the oil-rich Persian Gulf.

Following the removal of the Soviet forces, the U.S. and its allies lost interest in Afghanistan and did little to help rebuild the war-ravaged country or influence events there.[citation needed] The USSR continued to support President Mohammad Najibullah (former head of the Afghan secret service, KHAD) until 1992 when the new Russian government refused to sell oil products to the Najibullah regime

According to my readings things were going pretty well for the Afghans before they became the pawns of a power struggle lead by USA and Russia.Oh and yes oil is again involved.Isnt it strange?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan#Republic_of_Afghanistan

As being on the western soil do you back up overthrowing people selected by election?Or supporting religious groups for your personal gain?In Iran they were nationalising their oil resources, in Afghanistan they were making land reforms before western world involved.This hypocracy is making me sick.you can say whatever you want but you can ignore people's democratic rights.You are only showing the current picture.Google Reagan Doctrine.It is the turning event for most of the things.

[SiamHotel]

. . . young turks be free tonight . . .

[SiamHotel]

. . . young turks be free tonight . . .

or the night after tomorrow

[SiamHotel]

.... HOP3FULLY!! :roll:

[SiamHotel]

......

....

...

..

.

[SiamHotel]

[LasseDK]

MichaelMeyers:

Just wrote a long long topic and then i pressed the wrong button :shock: so abit short here.

First off, i didnt say you were taleban or something like that, just pointed out this muslim-unity that is a real problem, whcih the muslim world should consider more important than getting apologies for cartoons.

I dont agree about the apology, and i cannot imagine it can ever happen as Rasmussen still cannot apologize officially in any way, hope you understand that.

What about apologizing to us that Muslim's burned down our embassies, and bombed danish embassies ? we dont demand countries to do this, as we know that this is individually acts of violence caused by stupid people.

About ROJ - action will happen if there is evidence, and apparently no evidence has been delivered yet, as ROJ are still working ?

Regarding USA - yes they have build up monsters, and especially with Bush they really messed up the world and he of all people has made so many things that goes away from those values we are thought to represent as "the west". Im happy his days are over, and hopefully we got another direction now, and hopefully a more diplomatic way of dealing with especially the middle-east.

[SiamHotel]

ZzzzzzzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzzzz .....................................

[LasseDK]

Youre a major spammer siam.

[SiamHotel]

c'mon on lasse { ja ;}

$HINE ON!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZdwEExWFNQ

[MichaelMyers]

MichaelMeyers:

Just wrote a long long topic and then i pressed the wrong button :shock: so abit short here.

First off, i didnt say you were taleban or something like that, just pointed out this muslim-unity that is a real problem, whcih the muslim world should consider more important than getting apologies for cartoons.

I dont agree about the apology, and i cannot imagine it can ever happen as Rasmussen still cannot apologize officially in any way, hope you understand that.

What about apologizing to us that Muslim's burned down our embassies, and bombed danish embassies ? we dont demand countries to do this, as we know that this is individually acts of violence caused by stupid people.

About ROJ - action will happen if there is evidence, and apparently no evidence has been delivered yet, as ROJ are still working ?

Regarding USA - yes they have build up monsters, and especially with Bush they really messed up the world and he of all people has made so many things that goes away from those values we are thought to represent as "the west". Im happy his days are over, and hopefully we got another direction now, and hopefully a more diplomatic way of dealing with especially the middle-east.

There is no such things as Muslim unity.there is no one and absolute leader of Muslim community.some people are giving fatvas but it is only valid for their sect not the whole muslim world.

About the apology its on all of the Turkish newspapers.Maybe it is more about gaining face in the Muslim world and increasing your power in the area.I do not care actually but if it happens its a political success.

About Roj tv it takes time for official things.It just won't happen in 12 hours.

Roj TV was established after the closure of the MED TV and MEDYA TV, both are the PKK's propaganda channels. The MED TV was closed down by the British authorities. British ITC authority declared that the MED TV was a PKK branch and encouraged the people to violence and terrorism.

Well it walks like duck and sounds like a duck to me.And oh this one is better:

The PKK moved to Denmark after the UK and France and found a government willing to help its cause. While Roj TV was broadcasting from Denmark, it was banned in Germany due to its terrorist roots. The PKK's reaction to Germany's stance was to kidnap German mountain climbers in Turkey. However, Germany did not yield to the PKK's blackmailing and insisted on its decision on banning the TV channel. Indeed, the PKK is labeled in Danish law as a 'terrorist organisation' as it was by the US, the EU, the UK, Germany,

http://thenational.ae/article/20090405/GLOBALBRIEFING/427968593/1009?template=globalbriefing

Well it is getting more and more time consuming and i am not gonna hide that i am scared from your abs, lets move on.

[LasseDK]

There is no such things as Muslim unity.there is no one and absolute leader of Muslim community.some people are giving fatvas but it is only valid for their sect not the whole muslim world.

I know that, but its a huge problem that in between states/sects that you in the name of one religion - anything goes. One thing the muslim world should learn and should start practicing to gain respect in the rest of the world, is to do some housecleaning in their own backyards.

That would be highly appriciated.

About the apology its on all of the Turkish newspapers.Maybe it is more about gaining face in the Muslim world and increasing your power in the area.I do not care actually but if it happens its a political success.

We dont have anything about an apology in our newspapers, we heard about it and everyone was thinking "wtf are they on in Turkey ? dont they get it?".

And Rasmussen is not PM anymore, he has a job in Nato - he is not even in a position to give an apology anymore, other than a personal one, but thats not the issue. Denmark has to say "sorry" - but Denmark cannot unless Denmark wants to change the whole fundement of our laws.

About Roj tv it takes time for official things.It just won't happen in 12 hours.

All i know is that ROJ was subject for an investigation in 2005, and it was ruled by court that there was no proof of anything like that. So if new evidence has surfaced then lets look into it, i dont have any pro attitude towards ROJ nor can i imagine a danish government having, we only have to stick to our laws here.

But think about this: Rasmussen cannot promise to close a radiostation in Denmark, and he cannot promose to make an official apology - he is not a dictator and he is even not primeminister anymore.

If he gave an apology for the cartoons on behalf of denmark, i can ensure you that would send shockwaves through here, and opposition would toast Rasmussen.

Well it is getting more and more time consuming and i am not gonna hide that i am scared from your abs, lets move on.

Dont be afraid of my abs but yeah lets move on...just hope you get the dilemma we face when it comes to an apology.

[MichaelMyers]

Well, we are fighting against Taleban in Afghanistan right?And About Hamas and Palestine problem i am all for Palestine, for me they are not terrorists, people without country fighting to take their homes back.Taleban, El kaide are all US supported in the past.Like i said they plant the seeds in 1980's now the tree is grown and fundamentalist Islam is its fruit.

About the apology, they demanded apology from Rasmussen, not from denmark.Only you are saying that.

"Second thing is about cartoon thing.NATO is heavily dealing with conflicts in Muslim countries.It would not be wise someone who is hated widely by Muslim world to be secretary-general.We wanted a official apology, and it is said we will get it soon. "

Just wait for a few days maybe we will see more details on international media.

About the Roj tv i believe that Germans have a constitution and they also have freedom of speech.they decided to ban Roj TV. in their countries.I mean Roj TV is banned in Germany and 2 Germans were kidnapped by PKK this should mean something.

Well, even PKK is not considered a terrorist organisation for decades, even it is financially supported from Europe.But it was a terrorist organisation all the way.So it is more about the political conjuncture rather than courts decision.

I hope i make myself clear.

[LasseDK]

Well, we are fighting against Taleban in Afghanistan right?And About Hamas and Palestine problem i am all for Palestine, for me they are not terrorists, people without country fighting to take their homes back.Taleban, El kaide are all US supported in the past.Like i said they plant the seeds in 1980's now the tree is grown and fundamentalist Islam is its fruit.

About the apology, they demanded apology from Rasmussen, not from denmark.Only you are saying that.

Second thing is about cartoon thing.NATO is heavily dealing with conflicts in Muslim countries.It would not be wise someone who is hated widely by Muslim world to be secretary-general.We wanted a official apology, and it is said we will get it soon.

Just wait for a few days maybe we will see more details on international media.

About the Roj tv i believe that Germans have a constitution and they also have freedom of speech.they decided to ban Roj TV. in their countries.I mean Roj TV is banned in Germany and 2 Germans were kidnapped by PKK this should mean something.

Well, even PKK is not considered a terrorist organisation for decades, even it is financially supported from Europe.But it was a terrorist organisation all the way.So it is more about the political conjuncture rather than courts decision.

I hope i make myself clear.

Well it sounds like something will happen in Istanbul tomorrow, and apparently Obama has been putting alot of pressure on Rasmussen. So now im in doubt, i hope he keeps his integrity, but reading newspapers right now, there seems to be alot of strange things going on.

One newspaper says that within 2 months ROJ will be closed down, and there is political pressure on the police in denmark pursuing them - thats unheard of in Denmark, so hope thats not the case.

[LasseDK]

As expected, no apology for the cartoons, only his personal views on the matter.

Was it ok from a turkish perspective MichaelM ?

[MichaelMyers]

My personal view:

I do not really care, about the cartoons.I am considering it as a freedom of speech thing.Disturbing, but firing up places and giving fetvas about killing people is more disturbing.

General view:

You need to understand Islam to understand peoples reactions.In Islam you are not allowed to picture Muhammed.This is a huge taboo.Even sculpture is a forbidden art.During prayers you should not wear things with pictures on it (it is not a sin but its believed it's mekruh -not a sin but not also a good thing- This is highly because Islam comes after heathenism.As a new religion it eradicated all the signs of former religion.(like Christianity destroyed Egyptian religion) To avoid people converting back to heathenism huge bans against sculptury was applied.And forbidding picturing of Muhammed was also a precaution.It protected Islam from becoming a heathen religion.

So Muslims believe that Muhammed is so holy that he can not even be pictured or drawn.Even in a good way.

Besides that Islam is a religion more involved with daily life.You can be a good Christian mainly by acting good and going to church on sundays.To be a good Muslim you need to wash yourself 5 times a day, make your prayers 5 times a day, go to mosque once a week, feast for one month, visit Mecca once in your life and give 1/40 of your total wealth to poor people every year and act good.So it s hard to differ Islam as religion from earthly subjects because it is much involved with daily life.

Turkey is %95 Muslim and also a secular country, there are only a few extremists among us comparing to many Islamic countries.Women have the voting rights earlier than most of the European countries, you can drink alcohol any day, there are even tax paying brothels.I recall watching Emmanuelle on Tv when i was a teen.But the cartoons had such an impact even in these conditions.People have taboos and if you push the right button you can create an impact you do not even imagine.In fundamentalist countries it caused even more trouble as you guess.

During the development of democracy there should be conflicts against socials layers, and only after reconciliation of the layers true democracy can be applied.While Europe was doing that we were still an empire and we met with democracy by the efforts of one single man:M.Kemal Atatürk.So we are dealing with issues which Europe dealt and solved decades and maybe hundreds of years ago.Freedom of speech is one of them.

Comments on this event on Turkish newspapers are various.Pro-government media claimed a success.they said we have absolute support from Obama and consider it a good dealand a good political move.Anti-goverment media said that there were no apologies, and also nothing new about Roj TV.They said that Rasmussen only said round words and broke his word.

PS:Peter Madsen is a Danish soccer player he used to play for Brondby.

[LasseDK]

My personal view:

I do not really care, about the cartoons.I am considering it as a freedom of speech thing.Disturbing, but firing up places and giving fetvas about killing people is more disturbing.

General view:

You need to understand Islam to understand peoples reactions.In Islam you are not allowed to picture Muhammed.This is a huge taboo.Even sculpture is a forbidden art.During prayers you should not wear things with pictures on it (it is not a sin but its believed it's mekruh -not a sin but not also a good thing- This is highly because Islam comes after heathenism.As a new religion it eradicated all the signs of former religion.(like Christianity destroyed Egyptian religion) To avoid people converting back to heathenism huge bans against sculptury was applied.And forbidding picturing of Muhammed was also a precaution.It protected Islam from becoming a heathen religion.

So Muslims believe that Muhammed is so holy that he can not even be pictured or drawn.Even in a good way.

Besides that Islam is a religion more involved with daily life.You can be a good Christian mainly by acting good and going to church on sundays.To be a good Muslim you need to wash yourself 5 times a day, make your prayers 5 times a day, go to mosque once a week, feast for one month, visit Mecca once in your life and give 1/40 of your total wealth to poor people every year and act good.So it s hard to differ Islam as religion from earthly subjects because it is much involved with daily life.

Turkey is %95 Muslim and also a secular country, there are only a few extremists among us comparing to many Islamic countries.Women have the voting rights earlier than most of the European countries, you can drink alcohol any day, there are even tax paying brothels.I recall watching Emmanuelle on Tv when i was a teen.But the cartoons had such an impact even in these conditions.People have taboos and if you push the right button you can create an impact you do not even imagine.In fundamentalist countries it caused even more trouble as you guess.

During the development of democracy there should be conflicts against socials layers, and only after reconciliation of the layers true democracy can be applied.While Europe was doing that we were still an empire and we met with democracy by the efforts of one single man:M.Kemal Atatürk.So we are dealing with issues which Europe dealt and solved decades and maybe hundreds of years ago.Freedom of speech is one of them.

Comments on this event on Turkish newspapers are various.Pro-government media claimed a success.they said we have absolute support from Obama and consider it a good dealand a good political move.Anti-goverment media said that there were no apologies, and also nothing new about Roj TV.They said that Rasmussen only said round words and broke his word.

PS:Peter Madsen is a Danish soccer player he used to play for Brondby.

My Thinkpad just deleted a huge reply to you once again.

I will do it short, i think its a great post you wrote, and i cannot disagree with you in any way. I think the cartoons were under the belt, they targeted the majority of 1/6 of the earth's population on a subject that is a very personal thing.

I wish they never happened, i wish stupid people wouldnt use freedom of speech and i dont think their intentions were legit, even though it became this big "freedom of speech" issue when things started burning.

Problem with free speech is that there are alot of idiots using that right, the big challenge is to ignore them, as thats really what this newspaper deserved, not to get the attention.

About football sorry but im a huge noob when it comes to football.