ISLAM-BASHING do it here!

[zeusbheld]

yes, you too deserve your own thread, islam-bashers. we can call it 'islam is the root of all evil.' no need to make a distinction between islam or islamism here, or recognize that islam is not homogeneous, or even recognize that islam and the arab world are not the same thing! bash away!

and if you, gentle reader think that this means that i, as moderator, intend to limit such rants to this thread unless they relate to the topic being discussed, EXACTLY RIGHT.

i'll rely on celticcola to start the festivities, this is pulled from another thread:

PUBLIC BEHEADINGS

CUTTING OF PEOPLES HANDS!

TREAMENT OF WOMEN.

YOU DO THE RESEARCH AND TELL ABOUT SUCH THINGS AS LITERACY RATES AND EDUCATION IN THESE COUNTRIES. FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION

ACTUALLY THE KIND OF DISCUSSION WE ARE ENGAGING IN. TRTY IT IN ARABIA! SEE HOW FAR YOU GET OH AND HAVE A DRINK ON ME IF YOU DO GO TO SAUDIA ARABIA.

I SHOULD KNOW BETTER BY NOW. IT JUST MAKES ME LAUGH WHEN PEOPLE TAKE SOME OF THESE COUNTRIES SERIOUS.

JUST IMAGINE FOR A MOMENT A WORLD IN WHICH SAUDIA ARABIA WAS THE WORLD SUPERPOWER OR AN ISLAMIC STATE [LIKE IRAN] WAS THE PREMINENT POWER

I REST MY CASE!

[SpeedTriple]

Ooh Speedy pulls up his most comfiest chair.

Inserts the battery in his electric bottle opener that he got from santa, cracks the seal on his last case of DNK Chateux Neuf De Pape, dips his cheezy Doritos in some cheezy Dorito dip stuff and waits for the action to begin.

Yum Yum

[TLOS4me]

>>The fear of using the phrase ?Islamic Terrorism? seems to represent one of the weaker elements of Western counter-terrorism."<<

I've no problem with this label of Islamic Terrorism, I think that most people don't either. The problem, as stated, is the politically correct leadership of most of the west.

How many "Judao-Christian Terrorist", "Hindu Terrorist", and "Buddist Terrorist", groups have attacked the world as a whole?

To the Islamist we are all infidels! And the heck of it is that the Jews, the Christian, the Catholics, and the Muslims all pretty much trace their roots to the same places and religious figures. Go figure...

Where did it all go kablooy? Oh, yeah, I forgot, that holy grail thing and the crusades thing. Lets just blame it all on Monty Python shall we?

[zeusbheld]

the problem is not 'political correctness'... anyone who reads the paper reads about islamic fundamentalist terrorists, islamism, islamic separatists, islamic radicals, etc. even with the so-called "liberal bias" in the media...

the problem is westerners cannot distinguish between islamists and islam as a whole. islamism is a particular movement. by turning it into an anti-islam crusade, the west alienates the islamic middle--thus seriously impairing our chances of finding *any* allies within the islamic world (which is ******* huge and not limited to the middle east.. or even the east...)

now anyone who has been paying *any* attention since 9/11 knows that the biggest successes in teh so-called war on terror (an idiotic name, it's a war on terrorists, you can't fight a war against a concept) have come in places like pakistan where we make deals with less radical muslims to catch the millitant ones. the VAST majority of 'big name' captures came this way.

and even in the mess-o-potamia (jon stewart's name for the iraq fiasco) the capture of saddam hussein would not have happened without tips from iraqis who if not practicing muslims are of 'the muslim world'.

if the west cannot distinguish between factions of islam then we are doomed to another crusade that will last beyond our lifetimes. if the west can make deals and separate the islamists from other strains of islam, however, and isolate the bastards, then we can move toward peace, and a much less chaotic 'war'.

as for monty python... i told them we already got one...

[TLOS4me]

Good points there ZBH regarding the deal making and fine slicing of the different groups within the Muslim world. I certain that the western intelligence agancies understand this, it just hasn't filtered into joe 6pack's thought train yet.

AC, seems that some of them in Islam just "can't let it go", huh? It's a learned behavior of course.

And speaking of not apoloizing lets not forget Japan and WW2, but I digress and reveal my learnings!

[zeusbheld]

...but not once have i heard any mention of an apology

on behalf of *any* of the parties involved.

and japan hasnt apologized for war crimes in china, korea etc. from ww2, or even officially acknowledged any wrongdoing...

the russians havent apologized to the polish for katyn wood...

how much does it frigging cost to say "whoops our bad we wont invade you again."

i mean come on--it's not even like there's anything material at stake. just 'national pride' which i suppose has its place but in this instance is as far as i can tell a form of stupidity and blindness.

nothing material except for that business about descendants of slaves in the US being owed the "40 acres and a mule" they were promised dont hold your breath on THAT one.

[zeusbheld]

Good points there ZBH regarding the deal making and fine slicing of the different groups within the Muslim world. I certain that the western intelligence agancies understand this, it just hasn't filtered into joe 6pack's thought train yet.

And speaking of not apoloizing lets not forget Japan and WW2, but I digress and reveal my learnings!

ah. i didnt see that about japan, i was redundundant about that.

i think many of the intelligence agencies understand this and there are fewer lapses but there are still some honkers from time to time.

one problem is that the professional soldiers and intelligence ppl understand it but it apparently can't be pounded into the head of guys like rumsfeld, and he's back for 4 more.

also the bush team were sooooo good at spinning the media during their campaign for reelection, kinda wish they'd apply some of that genius to spinning this message, so that joe sixpack in the muslim world wouldnt be ggetting the message that joe sixpack in kansas wants every muslim dead, and vice versa.

i think a smart spin war would solve a lot of problems, but most of the propaganda campaigns have a) been directed solely at the other side or based on remsfelds' fantasy life rather than the real situation.

[TLOS4me]

Rummy seems to be the McNamara 00's. I don't know if he'll do the full 4 years or not, perhaps after the election in Iraq, he can fade away. Personally, I like the guy, he's a straight shooter.

I agree, we need a good PR campaign aimed at both sides to simmer things down. Perhaps the threat of an alien invasion would do the trick?

[patrickbseattle]

...but not once have i heard any mention of an apology

i mean come on--it's not even like there's anything material at stake. just 'national pride' which i suppose has its place but in this instance is as far as i can tell a form of stupidity and blindness.

nothing material except for that business about descendants of slaves in the US being owed the "40 acres and a mule" they were promised dont hold your breath on THAT one.

Technically speaking, on the 40 acres stuff, they are not supposed to receive anything. This phrase came from General Sherman, he did allocate about 40,000 slaves with land in the aftermath of the war, when the South was under Union military command, however he did not have law making authority to do this so Congress created bills to basically provide similar levels of payment, land+mule, land, cash, etc, each attempt was veto'd by President Johnson.

So to say they were promised that, well, Cheney promised rose filled streets in iraq and Kerry promised victory.

On Islam there are a few great books to read to see the complex status of Islam

One,

Among the Believers by VS Naipaul, an Indian born in Trinidad travels throughout the Islamic world.

Two,

The Great Game, more about Central Asia, takes place during the 18-19-20th Century but seems like your reading about China, US, Russia in the 21st Century in Kazakhstan, Afganistan, etc.

[zeusbheld]

Rummy seems to be the McNamara 00's. I don't know if he'll do the full 4 years or not, perhaps after the election in Iraq, he can fade away. Personally, I like the guy, he's a straight shooter.

I agree, we need a good PR campaign aimed at both sides to simmer things down. Perhaps the threat of an alien invasion would do the trick?

YES!! the mcnamara of the 00s... basically a good guy but an ideologue and misguided. it's a good thing he's in his 70s, so he wont have too many decades to think over how he botched it.

[zeusbheld]

Technically speaking, on the 40 acres stuff, they are not supposed to receive anything. This phrase came from General Sherman, ....

So to say they were promised that, well, Cheney promised rose filled streets in iraq and Kerry promised victory.

VERY good point... sherman did NOT have "power of attorney"...

On Islam there are a few great books to read to see the complex status of Islam

One,

Among the Believers by VS Naipaul, an Indian born in Trinidad travels throughout the Islamic world.

Two,

The Great Game, more about Central Asia, takes place during the 18-19-20th Century but seems like your reading about China, US, Russia in the 21st Century in Kazakhstan, Afganistan, etc.

VERY good choices. YOU ROCK. wasnt 'the great game' a fav of kissinger?

the historical roots of the present situation are deep.

for contemporary commentary my fav is thomas friedman, ny times columnist. there are others but i'm on my 3rd day without sleep. my brain is d-u-n done.

[eagle]

Islam is not evil but Mans use of it and his distorion of it, As Christianity is to the natives of the world. Killing in the name of any religion is INsane

[zeusbheld]

Islam is not evil but Mans use of it and his distorion of it, As Christianity is to the natives of the world. Killing in the name of any religion is INsane

i'd agree it really is that simple, and i know i've seen in both the bible and the parts of the q'ran i've read that generally you're not supposed to go around doing that...

the problem is that religion becomes an institution and is used as an instrument of social control instead of whatever spiritual guidance it's supposed to offer.

it's a gross oversimplification but it'd be great if they read their own damn books and left "unto caesar that which is caesar's"...

[cerberus1264]

I've lived this sh$t......So I feel qualified to comment......Religion......I've seen first hand what happens to ppl if the're the "wrong religion".......I've picked up the bodies of men women and children........Seen The mass graves and the aftermath of sick and twisted human beings.....Religion......It turns my stomach.....

This is a sick fuc$in world........Sorry folks....Touchy subject for me

[eagle]

I did simplify things but not for lack of things to say but it is that simple. The teachings of the great ones are not so complicated, but when man gets done with it we need someone to explain and then they use it for control and power. And so many suffer and die still as in the crusades. Its still happening today just in a different way.

Sorry ya had to deal with it like that cerberus, many do and yes alot of sick things in the world in the name of religion. BUt man creates them not god . Greed greed greed dam !!

[zeusbheld]

yep....

"control needs time for what it kills to grow in you stupid greedy ugly american deathsucker..."

-william s. burroughs...

to be fair deathsuckers come in all races, religions, etc. but the above is what burroughs wrote..

[eagle]

THe world is becoming unified as one world market. And they are quickly controling the water by privatizing and the food by patenting the dna of grains. Not so they can feed the world and give water to the thirsty but so they can control and profit. SO while they have the christians fighting the Muslims they are moving against us all and the black death of oil lubes the way. And who are they but large corporations who have grown so large that growing is the only desire to grow or be eaten by another corporation. A System feeding on itself, the machine ruling man, truely inhuman which could explain the heartlessness of it all.