The end of history

[Mazzy]

In 1989 American philosopher & political economist Francis Fukuyama, argued in a much contested essay that the advent of western liberal democracy should be seen as the end point of mankind's ideological evolution and the final form of human government (i.e. the end of history).

To sum up his idea very simply, he argues that liberal democracy (inspired on the American model) is the ideal form of political regime, that it has proved itself superior (morally, politically & economically) to all its rivals and will not be surpassed by any other system in the future.

So what do you think, is liberal democracy the ultimate, ideal political system or will something better come along in the future?

[luckyphil247]

You got it all wrong my friend ..... HISTORY IS COMING !!!

http://www.afl.com.au/Finals/tabid/12250/Default.aspx

[Mazzy]

Humm... I don't think that this is what Francis had in mind. But, this is TF after all...

[randyballacks]

In 1989 American philosopher & political economist Francis Fukuyama, argued in a much contested essay that the advent of western liberal democracy should be seen as the end point of mankind's ideological evolution and the final form of human government (i.e. the end of history).

To sum up his idea very simply, he argues that liberal democracy (inspired on the American model) is the ideal form of political regime, that it has proved itself superior (morally, politically & economically) to all its rivals and will not be surpassed by any other system in the future.

So what do you think, is liberal democracy the ultimate, ideal political system or will something better come along in the future?

Is the argument that the model that we have now in the USA something that the rest of the world should aspire to?

If so, then I think that is a floored argument.

Perhaps the original ideals of a liberal democracy, back in 1786 when the original US constitution was drafted, were something to aspire to. Unfortunately, since then, it's gone horribly astray.

This is not a bash the USA message. I just think the likes of George Washington and Benjamin Franklin - two of the original signatories of the Declaration of Independence (and Masons as well) - would not be all that impressed with the military/industrial complex of multi-national corporations that run the USA and, by extension, try to run the rest of the world.

Asia has got it's own depth of historical influence and cultural identity and I hope that it will continue to do things in it's own way.

[eagle]

Wow so when will we see a "real" Democracy then ?

[randyballacks]

Wow so when will we see a "real" Democracy then ?

To be honest with you, I really don't know.

To achieve a real democracy would require a complete change in mind set by those who control government/business/the economy. In other words a change in the "Wall Street" mentality, that being "Greed is Good" (profit at any cost).

A refocus on what is actually important in life - clean water, clean air, no poverty, enough food to go around.

Perhaps Karma is starting to bite - look at the current meltdown in the financial system. Even so, people made a lot of money short selling when the backside was falling out of the global stock markets.

[Mazzy]

Wow so when will we see a "real" Democracy then ?

To be honest with you, I really don't know.

To achieve a real democracy would require a complete change in mind set by those who control government/business/the economy. In other words a change in the "Wall Street" mentality, that being "Greed is Good" (profit at any cost).

A refocus on what is actually important in life - clean water, clean air, no poverty, enough food to go around.

Perhaps Karma is starting to bite - look at the current meltdown in the financial system. Even so, people made a lot of money short selling when the backside was falling out of the global stock markets.

And what if we did see a "real democracy" would it be the end of history? Is liberal democracy the most perfect political regime that man can ever hope to attain ?

[PeeMarc]

I think the term "liberal democracy" is just a modern propaganda used by the greedy to pacify and manipulate the needy.

[randyballacks]

Wow so when will we see a "real" Democracy then ?

To be honest with you, I really don't know.

To achieve a real democracy would require a complete change in mind set by those who control government/business/the economy. In other words a change in the "Wall Street" mentality, that being "Greed is Good" (profit at any cost).

A refocus on what is actually important in life - clean water, clean air, no poverty, enough food to go around.

Perhaps Karma is starting to bite - look at the current meltdown in the financial system. Even so, people made a lot of money short selling when the backside was falling out of the global stock markets.

And what if we did see a "real democracy" would it be the end of history? Is liberal democracy the most perfect political regime that man can ever hope to attain ?

The Greeks invented democracy. Perhaps their's was the original "real" and "liberal" democracy - for the good of the common man etc.. - and everything since then has been an ever decreasing, diluted model.

What we should be looking to is not so much an end of history but a change in history.

[zeusbheld]

This is not a bash the USA message. I just think the likes of George Washington and Benjamin Franklin - two of the original signatories of the Declaration of Independence (and Masons as well) - would not be all that impressed with the military/industrial complex of multi-national corporations that run the USA and, by extension, try to run the rest of the world.

Washington, for one, was disgusted at the very notion of political parties, so the two party system would have made him projectile vomit.

even if there's something to Fukuyama's notion---that democracy as a form of government is the best we're going to do---looking at the USA i have to say, the constitution's great but.... there's still a lot of work to be done.

that said it's my impression that democracies are relatively crap at governance but excellent at making rough political transitions violence-free.

[zeusbheld]

The Greeks invented democracy. Perhaps their's was the original "real" and "liberal" democracy - for the good of the common man etc.. - and everything since then has been an ever decreasing, diluted model.

What we should be looking to is not so much an end of history but a change in history.

the greeks were hardly perfect; they left an awful lot of people disenfranchised.

[lizardo]

Greek society was built on slavery and sodomy.....

[randyballacks]

This is not a bash the USA message. I just think the likes of George Washington and Benjamin Franklin - two of the original signatories of the Declaration of Independence (and Masons as well) - would not be all that impressed with the military/industrial complex of multi-national corporations that run the USA and, by extension, try to run the rest of the world.

Washington, for one, was disgusted at the very notion of political parties, so the two party system would have made him projectile vomit.

even if there's something to Fukuyama's notion---that democracy as a form of government is the best we're going to do---looking at the USA i have to say, the constitution's great but.... there's still a lot of work to be done.

that said it's my impression that democracies are relatively crap at governance but excellent at making rough political transitions violence-free.

If you compare it to other other models of governance that we see around the world then, yes, it is the best that's currently available.

Wether we can apply that kind of model to other parts of the world remains to be seen. Trbalism and religion seem to be the main stumbling blocks to implementing a western style "real" democracy in many places.

The question needs to be asked, do the really want that style of democracy, is it in their best interests? Would it even work?

Afganistan being an example.

[zeusbheld]

Greek society was built on slavery and sodomy.....

sort of like the English navy...

[zeusbheld]

i'd agree with that; i think there's a process a country has to go through to get there. also, and this is crucial--a country needs to achieve a certain economic level and level of education and Afghanistan is far from that.

without disagreeing with Fukuyama that SOME form of democracy is the best way to go, i'm not so sure this is it.

[lizardo]

Don't think you are too old or too distant to be press ganged into her majesties service sir....

[Mazzy]

Personally, I can't agree with Fukuyama's theory. My first issue with it, has already been mentioned. We can't predict the future and I do feel it is presumptuous to assume that our current political system is the best that there will ever be.

Second, democracy has failed to solve two major problems that have haunted most form of governements so far :

1) corruption & administrative ineficiencies (bureaucracy)

2) public participation (i.e. as in getting everyone to vote).

Finally, with the advent of the information age, it has become all too easy to manipulate and mis-inform the voters to get them to vote for one particular party or another.