Originality

[LakeGeneve]

To me, (no patriot act) I think Thailand is the most unique contry of the globe. We were not adapted from neighbour asian countries, but used to be one country before.

How many have you been to?

One question - and I'm not trying to be an a**hole - when King Narasuan grew up in Hongsawadee (now Myanmar) and the capital city of Ayuthaya was under Burmese control, why isn't this considered colonisation?

For me, if another country runs my country, my king lives there, and they make the rules of the land, that's pretty much my country being colonised.

I always wondered how Thais explain this period of their history... And I'm genuinely interested with no assholedom intended.

I dont have to go to every countries to learn them history.

King Narauan when he was in Honsawadee, he was not the King yet. And Ayudhaya was not the capital of Thailand we still have many independent cities like Chaingmai Chaingrai Pitsanulok Chantaburee etc..which have their own King and there are all independent cities. There would be only Ayudhaya that been colonised.

a**hole or not... :roll: umm...mai pen rai

\

Khun Kus, can I just pls clarify what you mean by "but used to be one country before" and which period you are referring too. Ta

[bigKus]

I think there are very few countires that are original.

I'm not great with History... but I'm assuming countries like England, France, Italy etc would be some of the few countries with plenty of originality.

Australia has original things, but most would be adapted from the English culture.

Similar to how Thailand adapts things from the early days from neighbouring Asian countries.

To me, (no patriot act) I think Thailand is the most unique contry of the globe. We were not adapted from neighbour asian countries, but used to be one country before.

Unfortunately, that is patriotism. We are taught the same thing in America from day one, and most American's would never admit that we come from other countries. The fact of the matter is that most countries come from other countries. Thailand is no exception despite what you are taught in school and via the media.

All of that aside, please take my post on the first page of this thread to heart. I think it's a great thing to come from other cultures as countries pick and choose what is right for them while leaving the crap behind.

Honestly, it took me a good 3 years of living in another country to 60% accept the truth. Patriotism is still blocking my clear perception of the world to this day.

But Thailand and America have a big big different history. How old of your America country ? How many years younger from my Great country Thailand .. ???

As my first post replied to Admin, Thais original was from Assam, India. We moved along the way down just for seek peacful living, we settle in Thailand nowaday just because we couldnt move any further as there will be fall off the ocean no more land for us. Thats why we fought with Mynmar (or whoever wanted to take our place )

[bigKus]

To me, (no patriot act) I think Thailand is the most unique contry of the globe. We were not adapted from neighbour asian countries, but used to be one country before.

How many have you been to?

One question - and I'm not trying to be an a**hole - when King Narasuan grew up in Hongsawadee (now Myanmar) and the capital city of Ayuthaya was under Burmese control, why isn't this considered colonisation?

For me, if another country runs my country, my king lives there, and they make the rules of the land, that's pretty much my country being colonised.

I always wondered how Thais explain this period of their history... And I'm genuinely interested with no assholedom intended.

I dont have to go to every countries to learn them history.

King Narauan when he was in Honsawadee, he was not the King yet. And Ayudhaya was not the capital of Thailand we still have many independent cities like Chaingmai Chaingrai Pitsanulok Chantaburee etc..which have their own King and there are all independent cities. There would be only Ayudhaya that been colonised.

a**hole or not... :roll: umm...mai pen rai

\

Khun Kus, can I just pls clarify what you mean by "but used to be one country before" and which period you are referring too. Ta

Different period ! 8) We are now almost 1,000 years old already, remember ? :evil:

[admin]

But Thailand and America have a big big different history. How old of your America country ? How many years younger from my Great country Thailand .. ???

As my first post replied to Admin, Thais original was from Assam, India. We moved along the way down just for seek peacful living, we settle in Thailand nowaday just because we couldnt move any further as there will be fall off the ocean no more land for us. Thats why we fought with Mynmar (or whoever wanted to take our place )

234 years old. However, other than the Native Americans everyone in the US is from somewhere else. There is no such thing as an American race or ethnicity. For instance, my great grandparents were from Italy. Rob's comes from a Japanese and Irish background.

But, even in that 234 years we've created a unique culture. Our culture shares similarities with other cultures and we've adopted many parts of culture from all over the world but we've also created our own unique culture as well.

[LakeGeneve]

To me, (no patriot act) I think Thailand is the most unique contry of the globe. We were not adapted from neighbour asian countries, but used to be one country before.

How many have you been to?

One question - and I'm not trying to be an a**hole - when King Narasuan grew up in Hongsawadee (now Myanmar) and the capital city of Ayuthaya was under Burmese control, why isn't this considered colonisation?

For me, if another country runs my country, my king lives there, and they make the rules of the land, that's pretty much my country being colonised.

I always wondered how Thais explain this period of their history... And I'm genuinely interested with no assholedom intended.

I dont have to go to every countries to learn them history.

King Narauan when he was in Honsawadee, he was not the King yet. And Ayudhaya was not the capital of Thailand we still have many independent cities like Chaingmai Chaingrai Pitsanulok Chantaburee etc..which have their own King and there are all independent cities. There would be only Ayudhaya that been colonised.

a**hole or not... :roll: umm...mai pen rai

\

Khun Kus, can I just pls clarify what you mean by "but used to be one country before" and which period you are referring too. Ta

Different period ! 8) We are now almost 1,000 years old already, remember ? :evil:

Well your answer has made me more confused as to exactly what and when your talking about. My question was put to clarify when you believe the first 'Thai Kingdom' came into existence?

[SweetieBabie]

When i started this thread, it was not aiming to get focus on when or how Thailand was originated. It was more like how come Thai people nowadays are very good at "borrowing" and "adapting" ideas (in avoiding of using a word 'copying') from others. Perhaps it should be a question of what is Thai "Aesthetic". I've felt that Thai education system has not taught Thai children very much of how to be 'original' or 'inventive' as well as becoming less appreciative in own culture in new generations. so what do you think?

ps. appreciate all the posts, especially the Thai house design, that's a good one. A lot of "folk wisdom" creations are fantastic. Although it's not very often seen.

[Admin_2]

Do you ever feel like you are walking on eggshells?

Even amongst well-educated Thais, I feel that way. I'm honestly scared to comment on Thai history, culture, and all those other things that have one view only...UNLESS it's a comment that saysI think how great Thai "this" and Thai "that" is.

Even then I worry that Thais will think it's a fake comment.

Guard your country to a point, but be careful about resembling North Korea.

[Karnie]

Do you ever feel like you are walking on eggshells?

Even amongst well-educated Thais, I feel that way. I'm honestly scared to comment on Thai history, culture, and all those other things that have one view only...UNLESS it's a comment that saysI think how great Thai "this" and Thai "that" is.

Even then I worry that Thais will think it's a fake comment.

Guard your country to a point, but be careful about resembling North Korea.

I am not good at given a very good comment on serious topic because even I am Thai I myself afraid that my straightforward with little knowledge may get some Thais the wrong idea then against me. To be honest, even I am Thai but I don't agree on everything about our country or history or politics and the list goes on and on. Of course, I do love my country but that doesn't mean I am going to protect my own country without accepting the truth or being blind. I considered myself openness to what people say in reasonable ways.

You know that some Thais they didn't like to hear things that they didn't think the same way and/or agreement on what they believe. The most thing that annoyed me is that they didn't like being "lost their face" in public which I don't understand why....

Errrr..... I think I ate too much or I need to hit the sack as I can see that my writing is like I am sailing my own boat in a small fish pond.... round and round.... Zzzzzzzz

Peach out!

[English_Bob]

I knew my question could be provocative, but I really want to know.

And I think the Thai people we have in these forums are mature enough to answer or comment fairly, even if they feel they have to use a PM.

For example... Tonia started this thread that states her opinion of Thai education and its limitations.

It's my GUESS that Thai history is taught showing Thailand in a positive light at all times. I doubt there are many Thais who were taught of the massacre of between 3-10,000 Cambodian refugees at Preah Vihear in 1979.

But I have never been a Thai student and don't know for certain... And I hope TFers can tell me their thoughts.

I don't even care what the answer is... I won't stop loving Thailand. I'm just curious to know what Thai people think about the system they have been through.

[admin]

I agree with Rob. It is very hard to discuss this topic. Some people are just always going to assume that when you point out any negative aspect about Thailand that you cannot also love Thailand.

In US history there is plenty to be ashamed of. In our 234 years we've done some very inspirational things as well as some pretty repulsive things. But in school we study both with the same level of attention because if you do not understand your mistakes you are doomed to repeat them.

So we learn about and celebrate Thanksgiving which was when the Native Americans shared their land and food with us and helped keep the first settlers from dying and we learn about how several decades later we exterminated those same people almost to the point of extinction. We learn about the brutality of slavery and the courage of people like Abraham Lincoln and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr in bringing about an end to slavery and civil rights abuses.

Like EB says, I've never been a Thai student so I don't know exactly what they teach. Nor have I been a student in the UK or other western countries. But it's fairly obvious that it's easier to discuss the good and the bad of one's country with a westerner than it is with many Thais.

And as Karnie points out, "saving face" does stand in the way of understanding. There are many reasons to love Thailand but there are still many things wrong with Thailand. It is the inability to even discuss what is wrong that, IMHO, is Thailand's biggest problem. And, again, without understanding your mistakes you are doomed to repeat them.

[bigKus]

One more thing that may good for you to know about Thai uniquely thing. They don't happy to see someone eat in their house but **** on their roof.

[admin]

One more thing that may good for you to know about Thai uniquely thing. They don't happy to see someone eat in their house but sh*t on their roof.

I love nationalism. :-)

I guess you can turn that quote around and say that if you come eat at my house and shit on my roof (I think the original version of this is "the floor") I'll tell you that there's a better way, explain the sanitary implications, show you the toilet, and tell you how to use it.

And bigKus, if you want to come to the US and criticize my president, our laws, our way of life, or anything else, you're free to. Not only will people not get mad but if they see the wisdom in what you say they will welcome your thoughts. Nobody will tell you that you are not entitled to an opinion because you are not an American citizen. Nobody will tell you to shut up and go back to your own country.

[bigKus]

One more thing that may good for you to know about Thai uniquely thing. They don't happy to see someone eat in their house but sh*t on their roof.

I love nationalism. :-)

I guess you can turn that quote around and say that if you come eat at my house and sh*t on my roof (I think the original version of this is "the floor") I'll tell you that there's a better way, explain the sanitary implications, show you the toilet, and tell you how to use it.

And bigKus, if you want to come to the US and criticize my president, our laws, our way of life, or anything else, you're free to. Not only will people not get mad but if they see the wisdom in what you say they will welcome your thoughts. Nobody will tell you that you are not entitled to an opinion because you are not an American citizen. Nobody will tell you to shut up and go back to your own country.

ha ha funny farang Bill, :x

Anybody please explain what does this really mean to him ? Before he is going more arseholious. It's nothing about sanitary matter for sure.

[Admin_2]

I'm confused too...but what's new?

[admin]

One more thing that may good for you to know about Thai uniquely thing. They don't happy to see someone eat in their house but sh*t on their roof.

I love nationalism. :-)

I guess you can turn that quote around and say that if you come eat at my house and sh*t on my roof (I think the original version of this is "the floor") I'll tell you that there's a better way, explain the sanitary implications, show you the toilet, and tell you how to use it.

And bigKus, if you want to come to the US and criticize my president, our laws, our way of life, or anything else, you're free to. Not only will people not get mad but if they see the wisdom in what you say they will welcome your thoughts. Nobody will tell you that you are not entitled to an opinion because you are not an American citizen. Nobody will tell you to shut up and go back to your own country.

ha ha funny farang Bill, :x

Anybody please explain what does this really mean to him ? Before he is going more arseholious. It's nothing about sanitary matter for sure.

bigKus, I understand what you mean. You are saying that I shouldn't come to your country and complain. Yeah, I get it.

What I'm saying back to you is that you don't seem to accept that pointing out flaws isn't necessarily shitting on your roof. Pointing out flaws can sometimes be done to help.

Like Rob said a few pages ago, some of what you've written comes off as very nationalistic/patriotic.

For instance, you said:

"I think Thailand is the most unique contry of the globe"

But that is based on what? EB's question about how many countries you've visited is very valid since the only way to truly gauge whether other countries or cultures are unique is to actually experience them. Claiming the distinction of being the most unique country in the world without having travelled to a good part of it and experienced it firsthand is very presumptuous to say the least. That is, almost by definition, nationalism.

I remember writing about my first trip to Thailand. I had such a hard time explaining it because I've seen better beaches. I've seen more beautiful dive sites. I've had more competent dive leaders. I've stayed in nicer hotels. I've been treated better by the citizens. But for some reason Thailand, as an entire package, was still my favorite place.

Now, just imagine if we were allowed to shit on your roof a little bit in order to make things better. Imagine if we told you what you can do to make the beaches nicer, the dive experiences better, improved the hotel service, or any of the other things that would make Thailand a more attractive tourism destination for people other than sex tourists. Is it okay to shit on your roof to put money in your pocket? :-)

[bigKus]

One more thing that may good for you to know about Thai uniquely thing. They don't happy to see someone eat in their house but sh*t on their roof.

I love nationalism. :-)

I guess you can turn that quote around and say that if you come eat at my house and sh*t on my roof (I think the original version of this is "the floor") I'll tell you that there's a better way, explain the sanitary implications, show you the toilet, and tell you how to use it.

And bigKus, if you want to come to the US and criticize my president, our laws, our way of life, or anything else, you're free to. Not only will people not get mad but if they see the wisdom in what you say they will welcome your thoughts. Nobody will tell you that you are not entitled to an opinion because you are not an American citizen. Nobody will tell you to shut up and go back to your own country.

ha ha funny farang Bill, :x

Anybody please explain what does this really mean to him ? Before he is going more arseholious. It's nothing about sanitary matter for sure.

bigKus, I understand what you mean. You are saying that I shouldn't come to your country and complain. Yeah, I get it.

What I'm saying back to you is that you don't seem to accept that pointing out flaws isn't necessarily shitting on your roof. Pointing out flaws can sometimes be done to help.

Like Rob said a few pages ago, some of what you've written comes off as very nationalistic/patriotic.

For instance, you said:

"I think Thailand is the most unique contry of the globe"

But that is based on what? EB's question about how many countries you've visited is very valid since the only way to truly gauge whether other countries or cultures are unique is to actually experience them. Claiming the distinction of being the most unique country in the world without having travelled to a good part of it and experienced it firsthand is very presumptuous to say the least. That is, almost by definition, nationalism.

I remember writing about my first trip to Thailand. I had such a hard time explaining it because I've seen better beaches. I've seen more beautiful dive sites. I've had more competent dive leaders. I've stayed in nicer hotels. I've been treated better by the citizens. But for some reason Thailand, as an entire package, was still my favorite place.

Now, just imagine if we were allowed to sh*t on your roof a little bit in order to make things better. Imagine if we told you what you can do to make the beaches nicer, the dive experiences better, improved the hotel service, or any of the other things that would make Thailand a more attractive tourism destination for people other than sex tourists. Is it okay to sh*t on your roof to put money in your pocket? :-)

Okay, Admin Bill. *sigh*

I actually stated clearly that 'i think' which anyone can think what they wanted to. And its nothing about flaws acceptance either.

Firstly, I read OP and 1st pages comments I found this forum thread must be another fun thread and tried to find out what i see daily that you hardly see in other countries until i read your a**hole excuse post and I agreed. then i expressed my feeling.

In your post which I replied, you raised the langauge aspect and I defended that we didnt adapt or copy. Thai langauge is similar with Indian because we came from the same root we share our ancestor. I think not many people here or even thais know that Thai original is from Assam. If you guys wanted to comment anything against me you gotta bring the evidence that Thai was not from Assam, India but from somewhere else which got no their own langauge !

I knew there would come out this way, bigKus, the patriot, whithie hater. LOL

Regarding, eat in the house **** on the root, this means nothing with money that you buy your pleasure exploring our country (while compaining). But its umm.. what to say... its about you disvalued something or act disrespectful someone after you took what they offered to you nice and friendly.

Is it okay to sh*t on your roof to put money in your pocket??? No, its not okay. We poor but we dont sell our human dignity

[admin]

Okay, Admin Bill. *sigh*

I actually stated clearly that 'i think' which anyone can think what they wanted to. And its nothing about flaws acceptance either.

Firstly, I read OP and 1st pages comments I found this forum thread must be another fun thread and tried to find out what i see daily that you hardly see in other countries until i read your a**hole excuse post and I agreed. then i expressed my feeling.

In your post which I replied, you raised the langauge aspect and I defended that we didnt adapt or copy. Thai langauge is similar with Indian because we came from the same root we share our ancestor. I think not many people here or even thais know that Thai original is from Assam. If you guys wanted to comment anything against me you gotta bring the evidence that Thai was not from Assam, India but from somewhere else which got no their own langauge !

I don't think we're going to agree on much of this because I'm not sure we're disagreeing :-)

I said, Thai is a derivative language. Everything from the alphabet to the spoken language has been adopted from another language. That doesn't make it bad. It's simply an observation that Thai is not an original language in the way many Thais think that it is. I have not claimed English, French, German, or any other farang languages not to also be derivative languages (they all are). I think our miscommunication starts when you read more into that than was meant.

And based on what I read, your knowledge of the origin of your language is perhaps incorrect. Based on what I've read which is from linguistic researchers, Thai is of the Tai-Kadai family of languages and is believed to have its origins in China, not India. Most Indian dialects are not tonal. Most researchers seem to think that the Tai-Kadai tonal languages originated in Guizhou and Hainan (China).

Punjabi is perhaps one of the few Indian dialects that is even partially tonal.

I knew there would come out this way, bigKus, the patriot, whithie hater. LOL

Well, I don't think that one can say that they think Thailand is the most unique country on the planet and not be looked at as being a patriot.

Regarding, eat in the house sh*t on the root, this means nothing with money that you buy your pleasure exploring our country (while compaining). But its umm.. what to say... its about you disvalued something or act disrespectful someone after you took what they offered to you nice and friendly.

Is it okay to sh*t on your roof to put money in your pocket??? No, its not okay. We poor but we dont sell our human dignity

I don't think that's accurate. It seems all you want to hear is praise for Thailand. I'm sorry but I don't know of any country that exists today or has ever existed in the history of humankind that doesn't have flaws.

And as I've tried to make clear several times, discussing flaws or misperceptions is not the same as complaining. That is why I said that you are more than welcome to come to my country, make boatloads of money, and share your thoughts (positive or negative) about my country. That is not only your (God given) human right but your obligation as a contributing member of a society.

We will not view you as being ungrateful guests who have profited from granting you the privilege of living on our soil or making money in our economy. You are treated like anybody else. You have the right to point out flaws, demand basic rights, and, yes, even complain.

And since I do come from Los Angeles which has the largest number of Thais outside of Thailand, I have met a fair number of Thais (born in Thailand) who have come to the US (mostly for education) and use all of the rights and freedoms we afford everyone. And when they complain or point out flaws I don't tell them they shouldn't shit on the roof, I applaud them. I congratulate them. I encourage them to keep speaking up.

[Karnie]

What are things in Thailand and it's culture that presents the originality quality which have not copied or borrowed from other culture/countries?

What's original?

Discuss.

I have not been to many countries but I GUESS we maybe only the country that audience have to stand up to pay respect to the majesty of the King in the theater before movie starts. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong...like I said I have not been to the whole new world..... o la la

[Admin_2]

And since I do come from Los Angeles which has the largest number of Thais outside of Thailand, I have met a fair number of Thais (born in Thailand) who have come to the US (mostly for education) and use all of the rights and freedoms we afford everyone. And when they complain or point out flaws I don't tell them they shouldn't sh*t on the roof, I applaud them. I congratulate them. I encourage them to keep speaking up.

Well put. I had a long conversation with some Singaporeans and Philippinos tonight about this topic: Why can't we positively criticize Thailand to Thais?

It was refreshing to hear the Thai neighbors expressing the same frustration that I have on this subject. The Singaporean replied that it was all about "face."

The point that almost made me laugh yet want to cry for Thailand was from the Philippino: "Thais understand sarcasm as much as they understand oxymorons...A positive criticism cannot be understood." (Not exactly word for word, but that was the main point).

This is aside from the point, but I learned something interesting during this conversation. I asked about why the educated Philippinos can speak English so well while the educated Thais struggle. Public schools there will teach EVERY subject in English (besides the Philippino language subject, Tagalog) as everyone already speaks Tagalog. I never knew this, and always wondered why the Philippinos were so good at English.

[Hazo]

This is aside from the point, but I learned something interesting during this conversation. I asked about why the educated Philippinos can speak English so well while the educated Thais struggle. Public schools there will teach EVERY subject in English (besides the Philippino language subject, Tagalog) as everyone already speaks Tagalog. I never knew this, and always wondered why the Philippinos were so good at English.

This is the reason I'm looking at outsourcing and opening an office in this country. They speak English well as they are taught to use it in everyday language.

[pandorea]

I agree with Rob. It is very hard to discuss this topic. Some people are just always going to assume that when you point out any negative aspect about Thailand that you cannot also love Thailand.

In US history there is plenty to be ashamed of. In our 234 years we've done some very inspirational things as well as some pretty repulsive things. But in school we study both with the same level of attention because if you do not understand your mistakes you are doomed to repeat them.

So we learn about and celebrate Thanksgiving which was when the Native Americans shared their land and food with us and helped keep the first settlers from dying and we learn about how several decades later we exterminated those same people almost to the point of extinction. We learn about the brutality of slavery and the courage of people like Abraham Lincoln and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr in bringing about an end to slavery and civil rights abuses.

Like EB says, I've never been a Thai student so I don't know exactly what they teach. Nor have I been a student in the UK or other western countries. But it's fairly obvious that it's easier to discuss the good and the bad of one's country with a westerner than it is with many Thais.

And as Karnie points out, "saving face" does stand in the way of understanding. There are many reasons to love Thailand but there are still many things wrong with Thailand. It is the inability to even discuss what is wrong that, IMHO, is Thailand's biggest problem. And, again, without understanding your mistakes you are doomed to repeat them.

We don't sing our national anthem twice/day for nothing, Bill.

You should see how the Dane being nationalisme, they do it in very "unique" way. They don't say it to your face that "you can bugger off if you don't like us". They just make it difficult for those none-dane to live with them.

Most Thai are sensitive when it comes to "Thai" things, I'm too one of them (sometime). It's interesting that you point out about Thai inability to discuss about Thai problems in farang's eyes, maybe what you see as problem isn't our problem.

Bloody hell, I think I'd rather go watch BBC, deal or no deal is on. :wink:

[luckyphil247]

So we learn about and celebrate Thanksgiving which was when the Native Americans shared their land and food with us and helped keep the first settlers from dying and we learn about how several decades later we exterminated those same people almost to the point of extinction.

Hence the phrase;

eating in their house and shitting on their roof/teepee

[bigKus]

And based on what I read, your knowledge of the origin of your language is perhaps incorrect. Based on what I've read which is from linguistic researchers, Thai is of the Tai-Kadai family of languages and is believed to have its origins in China, not India. Most Indian dialects are not tonal. Most researchers seem to think that the Tai-Kadai tonal languages originated in Guizhou and Hainan (China).

Punjabi is perhaps one of the few Indian dialects that is even partially tonal.

.

If you think my knowledge of Thai langauge origin is incorrect, You gotta read this ...

[admin]

So we learn about and celebrate Thanksgiving which was when the Native Americans shared their land and food with us and helped keep the first settlers from dying and we learn about how several decades later we exterminated those same people almost to the point of extinction.

Hence the phrase;

eating in their house and shitting on their roof/teepee

I thought the phrase was, "eating in your house and then brutally hunting down and murdering your entire race." Of course it might have been shortened to shitting on your roof.

[admin]

And based on what I read, your knowledge of the origin of your language is perhaps incorrect. Based on what I've read which is from linguistic researchers, Thai is of the Tai-Kadai family of languages and is believed to have its origins in China, not India. Most Indian dialects are not tonal. Most researchers seem to think that the Tai-Kadai tonal languages originated in Guizhou and Hainan (China).

Punjabi is perhaps one of the few Indian dialects that is even partially tonal.

.

If you think my knowledge of Thai langauge origin is incorrect, You gotta read this ...

It's not that I think your knowledge is incorrect, it's that most linguists who trace the origins of languages think that you're incorrect. There's always a chance they they might be wrong but you need to make a case on why I should believe this book rather than the work of other historians/linguists.