Thai racist??? Just look at the picture...

[admin]

If a third generation Chinese American who spoke no Chinese or Thai .. had a heavy American accent .. was obviously American even to the most dim witted Thai ticket seller .. he would be charged extra.

Actually, I've been to temples with full-blown 10,000% Americans of Chinese descent (third or fourth generation American) and they simply stood in the Thai line and didn't say anything and got the Thai price. Funny enough, on one trip two of the Thai nationals we were with were overheard speaking English that some security guy thought was too good and he jacked them up and spoke to them in Thai to make sure they were really Thai and not some other Asian getting the Thai price. And the beauty was, he was completely honest about it. He said that the reason he had stopped them was that he thought they might not be Thai. I'm sorry, how exactly do you define racism?

[English_Bob]

Bob .. Enough of the Red Herrings. "The crux" of my argument" Agree or disagree?

Further .. do you think it applies to the lousy 1 drink Africans and dual pricing?

Whites are considered rich because they mostly come from rich countries. Race and skin colour are irrelevant.

If a third generation Chinese American who spoke no Chinese or Thai .. had a heavy American accent .. was obviously American even to the most dim witted Thai ticket seller .. he would be charged extra.

Let's say the guy behind him was a third generation Chinese Thai and really looked Chinese. Would he be charged extra? ... No. but both are exactly the same race. Like I said .. it's to do with "nationality" .. not race in these particular situations.

Where's a smiley of a guy flogging a dead horse when you need one?

EDIT: As for "Finding a clever friend" .. I'll consider that when I get to the desperate stage of hurling foul mouthed abuse and personal insults anyone who disagrees with me.

The 'crux of your argument'? I have yet to see a single valid point. You spin some anecdotal 'evidence' about some black guys in Chantaburi and project that onto the entire country.

Now you back pedal and say it is about nationalities. EXCEPT for the blatantly obvious point that every farang is dual-priced regardless of their nationality. And black people are turned away from clubs based on their skin colour, without any idea of which country they call home.

You keep cherry-picking hypothetical examples but ignore the counter-argument which is that the decisions made by Thai people are based solely on appearance.

And decisions based on skin colour (overcharging whites, barring blacks, ignoring Indians) are racist.

I am beginning to think you have an extremely limited exposure to Thai people. The answers from long-timers here seem to back up the 'racist' viewpoint. We have at least 2 other Thai people, one TFer and one very-respected journalist who agree. And on your weak-assed side of the fence is you and your local black gem dealers.

Seeing as you keep asking hypotheticals, I will ask you one.

A taxi driver refuses to turn on the meter for a farang. Would he do that for a Thai? Of course not.

His decision is based solely on the race of the customer (not his nationality because he has no idea which country the man comes from), how is that not a racist decision?

As for the part about insults and foul-mouthed etc etc... As you pointed out, it's an open forum, everyone has an opinion and my opinion is you're a ******* moron with no ******* clue what's happening all over the country. And as you are not admin or a moderator, if you don't like my profanity you can kiss my white, over-charged ass.

[English_Bob]

And here is where I show you what a ***** you are...

Whites are considered rich because they mostly come from rich countries. Race and skin colour are irrelevant.

How is skin colour irrelevant when to identify which people come from rich country you need to use the word 'white'?

Oh look!... Logic and common sense. How did you miss that?

[hyper223]

...even Thai people agree that Thais are racist.

Read this... and get a clue.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/217666/dorothy-you-re-not-in-kansas-any-more

...

An article that self-selects for a westernized viewpoint, given that it's posted in English.

(You can argue that the English-language newspapers here are by/for western foreigners, or by/for snooty Thais that want to feel important by reading Thai news in English instead of Thai, but in either case, you've predominately got the western education bias, and therefore western culture in there.)

I enjoyed the article. It makes good points. It was the kind of non-offensive criticism-of-others-while-being-simultaneously-self-deprecating I would find in a western newspaper. As such, I also don't think it represents the Thai majority at all, as the majority don't put this level of consideration into their arguments. Self-criticism? Almost never see it. Admission of fault? Nope. Situational analysis? hahahahahaha. What is, is. There is no 'why.'

[hyper223]

A taxi driver refuses to turn on the meter for a farang. Would he do that for a Thai? Of course not.

His decision is based solely on the race of the customer (not his nationality because he has no idea which country the man comes from), how is that not a racist decision?

I think the assignation of this behavior strictly to racism is incorrect. The decision process probably arose more from the correlation of "easy mark" to "white skin," than it did from "I don't like white people, so will charge them more." I've heard Thai people complain about having this done to them as well, in certain areas.

What areas are those? The areas filled with farang tourists. Tourists that don't know any better, are are likely to just sigh and accept it rather than hassle over small money on their vacation.

So the taxi drivers learn that farang tourists in certain areas are easy marks. Ergo, when in those areas they refuse to use the meter. The behavior spreads. Maybe they refuse to turn on the meter for farang in any area, maybe it's limited to those areas. Will those same taxi drivers turn the meter on for Thais in the tourist areas? Probably not, as it's more money fleecing farang. (I'm thinking of Sala Daeng area, or upper Sukhumvit)

So, is it racism on their part? They used race to identify who to cheat, yes.

(dictionary.com)

racism

noun

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

For #1 and #3, I'd say that maybe they feel superior, and maybe they hate farang, but I don't think that's the basis for taking advantage of the economic opportunity, as if they had Thais in the same kind of situation, they'd cheat their own people too.

For #2, is this a systemic form of discrimination? It is in the sense that it's consistent. You referring it to racism under this definition might be considered correct, but I think most people think of racism more in the context of #1 and #3, which as stated, I don't feel are relevant to this situation.

[English_Bob]

An article that self-selects for a westernized viewpoint, given that it's posted in English.

(You can argue that the English-language newspapers here are by/for western foreigners, or by/for snooty Thais that want to feel important by reading Thai news in English instead of Thai, but in either case, you've predominately got the western education bias, and therefore western culture in there.)

I enjoyed the article. It makes good points. It was the kind of non-offensive criticism-of-others-while-being-simultaneously-self-deprecating I would find in a western newspaper. As such, I also don't think it represents the Thai majority at all, as the majority don't put this level of consideration into their arguments. Self-criticism? Almost never see it. Admission of fault? Nope. Situational analysis? hahahahahaha. What is, is. There is no 'why.'

Don't even start to dismiss Voranai as toadying to the Western point of view. He's virtually the only writer who dares to address the issues.

You class Thais who read in English as 'snooty'? How about 'interested in another viewpoint'? How about 'thirsty for knowledge'? How about 'well-educated and informed'? Nope? Just 'snooty'.... How ******* fair is that? Reading in the global language = snooty

You can't counter every argument with 'it's a financial decision'. Because unfair treatment based on race (WHATEVER its cause) is racist. The point about an 'easy mark/white skin' is just proof positive that it is based on skin colour and therefore racist by nature. Once you start making the decision to fleece someone based on their race, it's very difficult to argue that race plays no part.

More to the point, ask Thais what are their perceptions of Indians, Blacks and Arabs. Go on, just ask 10 random friends. I guarantee that 9 of them will be negative - rude, dirty, smelly - even amongst those who have never met anyone from that racial group. The perception that black is dirty is endemic - it permeates all levels of society and all age groups... watch Thai movies, Lakorn and adverts. Stereotypes are the norm.

Thai people treat races differently - and usually worse. I can find a few shining examples of fairness, but it's far easier to find examples that demonstrate racism.

[Guest MarkCJ]

Actually, I've been to temples with full-blown 10,000% Americans of Chinese descent (third or fourth generation American) and they simply stood in the Thai line and didn't say anything and got the Thai price.

I’m not surprised. Thai ticket sellers are easily tricked.

Funny enough, on one trip two of the Thai nationals we were with were overheard speaking English that some security guy thought was too good and he jacked them up and spoke to them in Thai to make sure they were really Thai and not some other Asian getting the Thai price. And the beauty was, he was completely honest about it. He said that the reason he had stopped them was that he thought they might not be Thai

Yes .. he thought they may be “Nationals” from some rich country.

The 'crux of your argument'? I have yet to see a single valid point

Ok Bob. You won’t address that so I’ll presume you think race and skin colour ARE relevant to Thais in business and money. Fair enough, but I disagree.

Now you back pedal and say it is about nationalities. EXCEPT for the blatantly obvious point that every farang is dual-priced regardless of their nationality.

Of course Bob. Most people of Western nationality are perceived to be rich. From black Americans to Chinese Englishmen.

And black people are turned away from clubs based on their skin colour, without any idea of which country they call home.

Based on previous experience of what lousy and disruptive customers they are. It has not always been the way Bob. This is a recent development.

You keep cherry-picking hypothetical examples but ignore the counter-argument which is that the decisions made by Thai people are based solely on appearance

That’s true in a lot of cases .. not in the dual pricing however.

The answers from long-timers here seem to back up the 'racist' viewpoint. We have at least 2 other Thai people, one TFer and one very-respected journalist who agree

“2 other Thai people” Thais are not really known for their logic abilities are they?

“TFLER” .. Spare me.

“Respected journalist” Laughable.

As for the part about insults and foul-mouthed etc etc... As you pointed out, it's an open forum, everyone has an opinion and my opinion is you're a ******* moron

Yes Bob.

I think the assignation of this behavior strictly to racism is incorrect. The decision process probably arose more from the correlation of "easy mark" to "white skin," than it did from "I don't like white people, so will charge them more."

Of course.

So, is it racism on their part? They used race to identify who to cheat, yes ……..but I think most people think of racism more in the context of #1 and #3, which as stated, I don't feel are relevant to this situation.

Exactly.

[Guest MarkCJ]

You class Thais who read in English as 'snooty'? How about 'interested in another viewpoint'?

Much like your good self Bob?

[Guest MarkCJ]

The perception that black is dirty is endemic - it permeates all levels of society and all age groups... watch Thai movies, Lakorn and adverts.

That's true Bob .. but has no relevance to the two situations in this thread. Try to see "the grey areas" between your black/white logic.

[Guest MarkCJ]

Made for people whose thinking has been polluted by American PC insanity.

[English_Bob]

Much like your good self Bob?

You have zero credibility.

I read in Thai. I read Thai newspapers - what does that mean? You know why I study Thai? Because I like to know what Thais think and write themselves.

I'm wasting my time. You sound like you arrived here less than 6 months ago. Voranai is one of the most respected journalists in Thailand. I suggest you read 3 or 4 of his articles online... then scroll down to the comments section and see the regard in which he is held.

TFers is a long-standing abbreviation for people on these forums - perhaps if you'd been here for more than five minutes you would know that.

Every now and again, someone like you pops up on the forums - no argument, no valid points, no logic and above all, an unshakeable belief that they are right, despite the overwhelming evidence against them. They disappear pretty quickly too.

Kyoto Koala, VBroker, AFook, Allseasonsman - these names mean nothing to you, but I've seen them all come and go. For those who frequent the forums often, I am placing you in the Kyoto Koala bracket - completely clueless and an expert on Thai people at the same time.

Here's another article - maybe you'd like to explain how people like Voranai and Khun Pornnapa are professional journalists and you are a nobody in a back-water, one-horse town. I'll save you the time - they know what they are talking about (And they are Thai!) and you know **** all.

http://asianracism.blogspot.com/2007/03/xenophobia-in-thailand-on-rise.html

[English_Bob]

That's true Bob .. but has no relevance to the two situations in this thread. Try to see "the grey areas" between your black/white logic.

Oh **** you and your fuzzy logic...

If racism permeate all levels of society and is portrayed in the media and you write 'That's true Bob'... how in the fuckity **** **** ******* world are you now spouting some ******* crappy shite about 'grey areas'?

You are a nonsense... The point has been conceded by you that racism is endemic.

But what is your 'grey area'? That 'not all Thais are racist'? Well, **** me.. really? That's not the point... The forum is about Thai society and IN GENERAL Thai people are racist because they treat people worse based on their skin colour.

[Chatty]

A taxi driver refuses to turn on the meter for a farang. Would he do that for a Thai? Of course not.

His decision is based solely on the race of the customer (not his nationality because he has no idea which country the man comes from), how is that not a racist decision?

Of course they do in some area p'Dave... The conception, farang are tourists, so they want to take advantage from farang, and not only farang who face that. Asian face like me, they thought I was Chinese, Japanese when I open the door they said "200 baht" Do you call it racist?

Or if they know I'm Thai cuz I speak Thai to them in some area such as Sukhumvit, Silom, Siam, Central World or in front of some big hotels, they refuse to let me in... no one want Thai passengers, cuz they this they will get less money from us Thai, farang have bigger money. Do you call it racist?

Another example, if you see the road under the express way from Pleonchit to Soi 1, it not allow any car except the bus can drive through... if someone drive from that direction the police will stop you and you will pay for the fine later. Every race got that treat except farang. Farang can get through so easily. And I think the reason is police don't wanna speak English. Do you call that racist?

IMO. It's a thin line, what we act make you think we are racist... Most of us like something nice and clean (I know we like to throw away some trash on street) So you might hear some of us picking some ppl who have dark, fat etc. Thought others country done that too from what i have seen on some movies...

About that sign from the thread owner... If you see African around here you might get idea why she had done it.

Reception makes conception. We don't think they, African all bad... I date some nice African footballers... They are fine.

[English_Bob]

Hi Neung - yes of course it is racist. Both examples you gave are racist. They made a decision to rip people off based on their race.

Ahh don't start me on the police. I am a white guy on a motorbike - I am a DOUBLE target. I can be in a pack of 20 other riders and the police will wade into the pack to collect me - it's racial profiling. And how much is the fine for a Thai? 100 baht. But for me? 200 baht. Oh and I know exactly the place you are talking about - and I got stopped there and so did my friend - both white guys.

I know EXACTLY why the woman put the sign up - and I agree she should be allowed to do it. It's her own business. I know the people you are talking about - remember, I live one soi away from where you work... I'm looking out of my window now and I can see your building!

However - that one woman is simply one example. There are millions more examples of racist people in Thailand.

You dated African football players... OK Be honest - have any of your friends dated black guys? Did you get looked at poorly by Thai people? Did Thai people make comments? Did they say negative things? Were there places you couldn't go because he was African?

[Guest MarkCJ]

I read in Thai. I read Thai newspapers - what does that mean?

Nothing. The fact that you state it so often definitely means something.

Every now and again, someone like you pops up on the forums - no argument, no valid points, no logic and above all, an unshakeable belief that they are right, despite the overwhelming evidence against them.

Pot/Kettle

Your arrogance, foul mouthed retorts and contradictive accusations are the funniest things I've read in a long time on Thai related forums. Thanks for the laugh.

[Guest MarkCJ]

Oh **** you and your fuzzy logic...

Good idea Bob. Thinking in "on/off" terms is much easier.

[admin]

And here is where I show you what a cunt you are...

How is skin colour irrelevant when to identify which people come from rich country you need to use the word 'white'?

Oh look!... Logic and common sense. How did you miss that?

Aren't Ireland and Greece almost bankrupt?

[Guest MarkCJ]

Hi Neung ... I live one soi away from where you work... I'm looking out of my window now and I can see your building!

Stalker Alert !!!

[Guest MarkCJ]

I read in Thai. I read Thai newspapers - what does that mean? You know why I study Thai? Because I like to know what Thais think and write themselves.

... and yet in the seven years and 5,416 posts in this forum you have only started 7 threads. None of them in the Thai Only section. Also no replies in the Thai Only section. Hmmm .. bullshit alert or what?

Don't worry Bob. This is a big forum. Big enough for both of us. Deal with it. Like one other poster said ..

Bob doesn't like others urinating where he has urinated

I think we have a case of "Territorial Farang" here. 555+++

Edited March 7, 2011 by MarkCJ

[English_Bob]

Nothing. The fact that you state it so often definitely means something.

Pot/Kettle

Your arrogance, foul mouthed retorts and contradictive accusations are the funniest things I've read in a long time on Thai related forums. Thanks for the laugh.

I mentioned the Thai reading once, not numerous times. And I used it as a parallel to the comment that Thais who read English are 'snooty'.

'Foul-mouthed'? Get a pair of balls. This is life - people swear.

Now are you going to answer any questions?

Did you read the links?

I have shown numerous accounts and examples of racism. 'Pot/Kettle? Except that I have an argument - backed by two Thai journalists. I have valid points - as conceded by you. And so far, I have no reason to change my opinion because you have not provided any kind of rebuttal.

You have shrunk back to editing quotes and making weak taunts. If you are determined to be on the forum (and you are in the wrong league completely), you need to up your game.

If you are still standing by your original point which was 'Thais aren't racist, they are opportunistic.', you need to address the other points raised such as negative portrayals in the media, Thai people's attitudes to other races and the targetting of races for 'special treatment'.

So far you haven't dealt with any of this. You have simply provided anecdotal evidence of a couple of guys in your neighbourhood who seem to be doing OK. That is not a solid base on which to build an argument.

What this boils down to is that you entered this forum with another ill-thought-out idea which disintegrated within minutes of being posted. And because you have nothing to back it up with, you are now just trolling around.

This is the final request - come back with a solid argument (no more hypothetical situations), back it up with some research or articles, explain why targetting people based on race is not racist and I will continue the debate.

If, however you chose to continue with these short banal comments (are they supposed to be snappy one-liners?) that have no merit and add nothing to the thread, I will conclude that you have nothing more to add and your argument is finished.

[CiaranM]

I will conclude that you have nothing more to add and your argument is finished.

he had one to begin with ?? i must have missed that bit !!!

[English_Bob]

Nothing. The fact that you state it so often definitely means something.

Pot/Kettle

Your arrogance, foul mouthed retorts and contradictive accusations are the funniest things I've read in a long time on Thai related forums. Thanks for the laugh.

... and yet in the seven years and 5,416 posts in this forum you have only started 7 threads. None of them in the Thai Only section. Also no replies in the Thai Only section. Hmmm .. bullshit alert or what?

Don't worry Bob. This is a big forum. Big enough for both of us. Deal with it. Like one other poster said ..

I think we have a case of "Territorial Farang" here. 555+++

I think you'll find I contributed to a whole lot more threads than that...

My reading is better than my writing, so I don't write forums in Thai

I've met almost every person who has posted in this forum personally - except you. They can attest to whether it's bullshit or not.

This is what's called arguing ad hominem. Once your argument has failed you try to link a character flaw to the opponent to weaken his argument.

So, I swear, I know where Neung works (And see? I know her real name) and I haven't started a Thai language forum (in fact I don't think any farang has).

All of this is smoke and mirrors to detract from the fact you have no valid point. It doesn't matter if I'm a homicidal maniac, a raving queer or a brain in a jar... the argument has been made and you have failed to answer it.

Bye bye... Come back when you're ready to play with the big boys.

Edited March 7, 2011 by English_Bob

[English_Bob]

he had one to begin with ?? i must have missed that bit !!!

Not for you, this one Ciaran.... he doesn't like swearing.

[Guest MarkCJ]

Now are you going to answer any questions?

You're getting ahead of yourself Bob. I'm still waiting for you to answer mine. "Race and skin colour have no relevance in business and money matters with Thais" .. or words to that effect. Agree or disagree?

If you prefer not to answer .. just say so and I won't ask again. If you choose not to answer a question related the the very base of my argument ... then I'd be wasting my time answering your inane questions.

You have simply provided anecdotal evidence of a couple of guys in your neighbourhood

You're clinging to that one example like a drowning man clutching at a straw and yet conveniently ignoring everything else. Do you want some more straws Bob? I have heaps. The 7/11 staff keep giving them to me every time I buy a 2 litre bottle of milk .. despite numerous explainations to them that I don't need them.

[CiaranM]

You're getting ahead of yourself Bob. I'm still waiting for you to answer mine. "Race and skin colour have no relevance in business and money matters with Thais" .. or words to that effect. Agree or disagree?

if u believe that .... u really r f**king dumb !!! even dumber than i orginally thought u were ... and that was pretty dumb already !!