Thai racist??? Just look at the picture...

[tarn_arts]

Edited March 2, 2011 by Japamerican
add in photo URL, not the webpage URL

[admin]

Although that would seem racist in our countries the Thais have not been given the standard PC propaganda. Most places that refuse business to Africans do so because serving them can be bad for their business. For instance, I was told, that one bar in soi 22 started letting them in and they swarmed there taking over the place. They would come in and sip on one or two beers and stay all night playing pool and other customers wouldn't come in with them there. The bar eventually went out of business.

[johnno]

as far as i know, indians don't enjoy very good service also. yes bill, i know what you mean. if a bit of cash is flashed, its amazing how service quickly changes.

[English_Bob]

A large bar near Sukhumvit Soi 4 had a number of Nigerians coming in.

There were complaints about the behaviour (drugs, cleanliness and rudeness to staff).

A mechanic from the American Embassy approached a group of TEN big African guys and told them - 'You are in the wrong bar. Finish your drinks, go back to your side of the street and don't come back in here.'

That took balls of steel.... but they left and didn't go back. The owner told me he was very grateful.

[English_Bob]

Thais are racist, because they don't know any better.

They are racist against Burmese, Laotians, Cambodians, Farangs, Africans, Indians and Arabs.

The levels of racisms are different and take different forms. Fortunately I belong to the Farang race and racism against me extends to over-charging and gossipping about me. I pay higher prices for local attractions and there are limitations on buying property, opening a business etc.

However, most of the racism in covert, rather than overt. With a little patience I can handle it. There are upsides too - I can get away with dating girls outside my league / age group. I can make mistakes and be forgiven because I am 'just a farang'. I can speak basic Thai after 9 years and be treated like a genius because most farangs don't speak any Thai.

It's great to be here....

[Bodai]

A large bar near Sukhumvit Soi 4 had a number of Nigerians coming in.

There were complaints about the behaviour (drugs, cleanliness and rudeness to staff).

A mechanic from the American Embassy approached a group of TEN big African guys and told them - 'You are in the wrong bar. Finish your drinks, go back to your side of the street and don't come back in here.'

That took balls of steel.... but they left and didn't go back. The owner told me he was very grateful.

I have spent my whole life working in the most hard core jobs. US Special Forces, Body Guard to rich and famous and now Private Security in the Middle East. I would like to state after all I have been through and all the training I have, I am not sure if I would have to balls to do this. Point this man out and I will buy him a few beers.

[tarn_arts]

OK, so what they're doing (sitting for hours, orderig nothing) is definitely wrong. But isn't there any other way to solve this problem without making it looks like discriminating at the surface? Like setting up some kind of rule?

[tarn_arts]

By the way, I never understand why Thai people think it's kinda cute for foreigners to be able to speak Thia, though I do found it quite adorable sometimes, depends on the person...

[admin]

OK, so what they're doing (sitting for hours, orderig nothing) is definitely wrong. But isn't there any other way to solve this problem without making it looks like discriminating at the surface? Like setting up some kind of rule?

Because they don't think about racism in the same constructs as farangs who have had it driven into their skull that even noticing some small difference about another race is racism which needs to be treated with intensive PC conditioning.

The sign says Africans. Not blacks. They do make a distinction. And if you take a cruise up Soi 3 or 5 or 15 after 2am that distinction makes itself very clear.

And TF itself is somewhat racist. We block out entire countries in West Africa because 99% of the people who sign up from there are scammers. If you take a look at the amount of people banned on this site over the years a massively disproportionate amount come from that area.

[English_Bob]

Because they don't think about racism in the same constructs as farangs who have had it driven into their skull that even noticing some small difference about another race is racism which needs to be treated with intensive PC conditioning.

The sign says Africans. Not blacks. They do make a distinction. And if you take a cruise up Soi 3 or 5 or 15 after 2am that distinction makes itself very clear.

And TF itself is somewhat racist. We block out entire countries in West Africa because 99% of the people who sign up from there are scammers. If you take a look at the amount of people banned on this site over the years a massively disproportionate amount come from that area.

Wait! I met a girl from Africa on TF... She's in a Rwandan refugee camp and is going to give me 2 million dollars.... or something.

So... if a white man from Africa went into that shop, would they turn him away? No. Because they are only interested in skin colour. If a black guy from America went in, they'd probably treat him the same.

[tarn_arts]

I agree with English_Bob here. It's interesting, I think, that Thai people, I assume stereotypically here, don't know much about recism or discrimination enough to try and not make it sounds so discriminating. I sware I was talking to my neighbour a while back and she mentioned that there're many African-American or just African walking down the street near our houses. She said she thinks they make her feel unsafe and she thinks they don't look very hygienic (because of their darker skin color) Another case in point, Thai people, some but I don't know how much, still refer to African as ***** or Black people (/Khon Dum/,) which is very discriminating.

What I would like to know is how many Thai people know about the American Civil War, or Slavery, or other discrimination that was still exist in the south of USA (like, seperating restroom, coffee shop, bus seats of American and African-American.) I know some people know about this, but how many who is ignorant about this.

[Sukhumvit_Farang]

Coincidentally, I just saw that sign tonight on my evening walk. I found it surprising enough that I had to stop and read it twice. I found it more humorous than offensive.

And while it is true that such a policy would not be tolerated in my home country, the US, the fact that such things are tolerated here in Thailand is one of the reasons I'm here and not in America. A business is a privately owned establishment, and as such, the owner of the establishment has the right to decide who may and may not enter - on any basis he chooses - whether rational or irrational. If he is too restrictive - or if his policies are found to be too offensive by the majority of people, then his business will suffer - and possibly even fail - because of his racist policies. Obviously this business had problems with Africans either not buying drinks - or scaring away other customers who might frequent the place. So the owner refuses to serve Africans - which is his/her right.

I've seen clubs in Bangkok that have signs saying "Japanese Only". If the Japanese prefer to be among themselves (which I would personally find a bit boring), it is not my right to demand entry to a place that doesn't wish to serve me based on the length of my nose or the color of my skin - nor would I wish to enter such a place. In fact, I might even secretly wish for them to fail. But still, the owner of a place has the right to make the rules for his establishment - and we have to abide by them.

I also know a place in Sukhumvit Soi 3 that charges an entrance fee for Indians and Arabs - but not for farangs. This is based on their experience that a half a dozen Indians would buy one drink with six straws and share the drink among themselves, whereas your typical farang grasps the concept that he should buy a drink. By definition this is racist - but it's the owner's right to set his own policies.

The same goes for smoking in bars/clubs. There is probably no one who hates smoking more than I do. But I don't think it is necessary to forbid smoking in places where people have a choice to enter or not. If I don't like smoking, which I don't, then I will not go to places that allow smoking. For some places, like airports, for example, it is not practical for there to be competing smoking and non-smoking airports, so smoking should not be generally permitted in places like that - but smoking can be allowed in specific rooms at airports, as I think is the case presently.

So, to conclude, while I don't appreciate the fact that most Thais seem to be blatantly racist, I appreciate the fact that a business still has the right to have racist policies. If they choose the wrong policies, though, they will fail.

[Bodai]

I am as well from America and I agree with S_F. One of the things I have enjoyed about Thailand is how non PC it is. America is being destroyed by individuals who pretend to get offended due to some non PC term, and Sue. There is a very popular company in America called WhoCanISue.com This company thrives on PC policies instilled in the US. So even though we have "Freedom of Speech", we must tread lightly around everyone in hopes that we don't offend them. This has gone so far that people have been sued after performing CPR or The Heimlich maneuver. This person has had their life saved by the other, but still goes and sue's them just to get some easy money. It is way out of control and even though some Thai's are racist against Farangs, this is a small price to pay in my opinion.

[admin]

I agree with English_Bob here. It's interesting, I think, that Thai people, I assume stereotypically here, don't know much about recism or discrimination enough to try and not make it sounds so discriminating. I sware I was talking to my neighbour a while back and she mentioned that there're many African-American or just African walking down the street near our houses. She said she thinks they make her feel unsafe and she thinks they don't look very hygienic (because of their darker skin color) Another case in point, Thai people, some but I don't know how much, still refer to African as Nigro or Black people (/Khon Dum/,) which is very discriminating.

What I would like to know is how many Thai people know about the American Civil War, or Slavery, or other discrimination that was still exist in the south of USA (like, seperating restroom, coffee shop, bus seats of American and African-American.) I know some people know about this, but how many who is ignorant about this.

Well, just to clear up some confusion with people who mostly know about black people only from an American perspective, black Brits don't like to be called African-Americans (yes, some Americans will insist that that is the correct term for black people of all nationalities without ever thinking about it). It's been drilled into our heads as Americans that the correct term is African-Americans but that assumes that they're American. If they're not American then black tends to be a pretty standard description.

Nigro is offensive but black generally isn't.

[Guest MarkCJ]

To be fair. It's not just the Thais who are being racist .. if that indeed is what they are doing (Which I think not) .. It's the other foreign customers too. The apparent reason why Africans are denied service was because the "other" customers don't like them.

If other foreigners (read "white") welcomed the Africans with open arms ... so would the Thai business owners .. if there was money to be made.

... but in reality I think another reason for Africans being denied service is because they are lousy customers. Nothing to do with their race at all. Add to that the already mentioned fact that the other (white) customers simply don't like them .. I'm not surprised at the Thai business owners actions.

If for example the Dutch had a reputation for sitting on 1 beer all night and other foreigners disliked them .. they would be barred by the Thais too. Skin colour and race are irrelevant to Thais when it comes to money and business.

There are many Africans here in Chanthaburi working in the gem trade. (importing) They frequent a lot of local businesses, spend a lot of money and are .. from what I can see .. accepted by the local Thais.

It's all to do with money. Not racism .. in this particular situation. It's the same as white foreigners calling Thais racist because of the dual pricing here. Rubbish. Again .. it's all about money.

Edited March 6, 2011 by MarkCJ

[English_Bob]

Wrong wrong wrong...

Black skin is disliked by Thai people - on their own people or on others. It is considered ugly.

Of course, not by all, but by the majority. Thais discriminate against people based upon their race. Ergo that is racism.

Dual pricing IS racism. eg I have a white friend who was born here and holds dual nationality. He visited Wat Phra Kaew with his sister in law who is American-Chinese. There was a long, drawn out discussion in which he needed to fight for his 'local' price despite showing an Thai ID card, yet his Asian relative was automatically permitted entrance based on her appearance.

I still remember a Thai advert for a chocolate bar which was white chocolate sandwiched between two milk chocolate bars... the advert (typically) was two black dudes hugging a Thai-Chinese dude.

[Guest MarkCJ]

Yes Bob .. I'm well aware of Thai "colour discrimination" .. but as I said .. that's not the case here. Otherwise the Africans here in Chanthaburi would be getting the same treatment. No? Things aren't always "Black and White" .. pun intended.

Dual pricing is NOT racism and it's naive to think so. It's "Opportunism"

[English_Bob]

Yes Bob .. I'm well aware of Thai "colour discrimination" .. but as I said .. that's not the case here. Otherwise the Africans here in Chanthaburi would be getting the same treatment. No? Things aren't always "Black and White" .. pun intended.

Dual pricing is NOT racism and it's naive to think so. It's "Opportunism"

Jesus! Are we in No Holds Barred? Are you ******* stupid? You ******* moron. 'Opportunism' leading to racism - you ******* ****. If you 'opportunistically' discriminate against other people it's still racism for ****'s sake!

It doesn't matter what your reasons for discriminating are - you are still a racist.

And what the ****? Because black people in Chantaburi are treated OK, that's an indicator of the rest of the country? Read the other posts... even Thai people agree that Thais are racist.

Read this... and get a clue.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/217666/dorothy-you-re-not-in-kansas-any-more

**** me! How long have you been here?

[Guest MarkCJ]

Yes Bob.

[Stramash]

to draw an analogy from another area of human interaction Mark, abuse is not only defined as a physical act. Abuse can take psychological , emotional, sexual, physical and FINANCIAL forms. They are still all abuse. If opportunism and making extra money is based on a person's skin colour, then it is racial opportunism and therefore completely racist.

A good example of opportunism (certainly in the West) is the way travel companies vastly increase holiday costs at school holiday times. That is unfair, but is not racist (though some teacher friends would say it is still discrimination lol)

[Guest MarkCJ]

What some people seem to fail to realise here is that "White people" are considered to be rich by Thais. The fact they have white skins is irrelevant. I can understand how a Thai ticket seller would mistakenly try to charge a Thai born Caucasian extra. I can also understand how that same ticket seller would be fooled by an Asian American and think he was Thai. Thai ticket sellers are not the sharpest knives in the drawer. Plus .. it's an isolated case. I've had no trouble getting into National parks etc at the Thai price simply by flashing my work permit.

It doesn't matter what your reasons for discriminating are - you are still a racist.

Let's apply that logic to a hypothetical situation.

I meet a guy who is a complete arsehole. I tell him he is an arsehole. I'm discriminating against him because he is an arsehole. (the "reason") I don't like him.

Now .. if this guy was white like me .. I'm just one guy calling another guy an arsehole. If the guy was black .. then according to Bob's reasoning .. I'm a racist.

As far as I'm concerned the guys skin colour has nothing to do with the fact that I think he is an arsehole.

Likewise ..foreigners who are perceived to be rich getting charged extra has nothing to do with their race or skin colour. It's to do with their "nationality" Most Western (read "white") nationalities are perceived to be rich. Hence the opportunistic dual pricing.

If a poor Japanese backpacker went to a national park and the ticket seller knew without a doubt he was Japanese .. he would be charged extra. Japanese are "perceived" to be rich.

It's all to do with nationality .. not race. It is NOT "racism". Thais just presume anyone who is not Thai is rich. Stupid .. but true.

Edited March 6, 2011 by MarkCJ

[Guest MarkCJ]

Maybe I should simplify my argument. This is the crux of what I'm saying regarding Africans being barred in some Bangkok establishments .. and Dual pricing.

Skin colour and race are irrelevant to Thais when it comes to money and business.

It seems from Bob's reply below that he disagrees with that.

Jesus! Are we in No Holds Barred? Are you ******* stupid? You ******* moron. 'Opportunism' leading to racism - you ******* ****. If you 'opportunistically' discriminate against other people it's still racism for ****'s sake!

I am not commenting Thais racism in general .. which is a given.I am commenting on these two isolated examples. Like I said .. we don't live in a purely black and white World. That's too simplistic. There's a lot of grey in between.

[English_Bob]

Yeah. Now you're just being obtuse. Your hypothetical situation is wrong because you judged the guy to be an arsehole AFTER you met him.

If you judge him to be an arsehole BEFORE you met him because he was black, you are a racist. And that is EXACTLY your description - whites are considered to be rich (based on their skin) and are therefore discriminated against. Therefore your argument is Bollocks.

[English_Bob]

This is too easy. Do you have any clever friends to help you?

[Guest MarkCJ]

Bob .. Enough of the Red Herrings. "The crux" of my argument" Agree or disagree?

Skin colour and race are irrelevant to Thais when it comes to money and business.

Further .. do you think it applies to the lousy 1 drink Africans and dual pricing?

- whites are considered to be rich (based on their skin) and are therefore discriminated against. Therefore your argument is Bollocks.

Whites are considered rich because they mostly come from rich countries. Race and skin colour are irrelevant.

If a third generation Chinese American who spoke no Chinese or Thai .. had a heavy American accent .. was obviously American even to the most dim witted Thai ticket seller .. he would be charged extra.

Let's say the guy behind him was a third generation Chinese Thai and really looked Chinese. Would he be charged extra? ... No. but both are exactly the same race. Like I said .. it's to do with "nationality" .. not race in these particular situations.

Where's a smiley of a guy flogging a dead horse when you need one?

EDIT: As for "Finding a clever friend" .. I'll consider that when I get to the desperate stage of hurling foul mouthed abuse and personal insults anyone who disagrees with me.

Edited March 6, 2011 by MarkCJ