Tipping

[GoldMember]

Surely one of the greatest scourges afflicted upon modern civilisation (after George Dubya and those dubious air line/port 'surcharges') ?

You go to a hotel and pay sometimes huge amounts for their services.So why does one have to tip further?Surely its already within the price?Otherwise better to rent out a room and pay extras for housekeeping,porterage,use of conceirge on a pay-per-use basis.Then that would make sense.Why pay twice for something you expect anyway?

Ditto restaurants.You go to restaurant for someone to cook for you and serve you in pleasant surroundings.Cook from home you could probably sort out a decent meal for 4 quite easily for say 60$(incl wine).At a restaurant the figure would be maybe 200++.So the 140$++ mark up is the hassle factor which you are willing to pay to avoid doing t yourself.So why is there 10-15% service charge added on top when the service bit is surely already included within the cost basis of each item ordered .Adding a service charge is bizarre and many people still feel obliged to tip further : unless service is exemplary and beyond call of duty,thats plain ridiculous.The Japanese have it sussed.You pay nothing more.The USA (in particular) but other countries too(incl uk) should do away with this growing silly & incessant tipping mentality and just include it in the framework of the bill(like they do for example in 'most' south-east asian eateries)...and increase staff pay accordingly.Voila

..end of whinge.

[caca]

i order tap water and eat BigMacs stuffed down my jockies.easy peasy.cant add 15% to 0. :wink:

[macca_tirana]

So many of these businesses pay such poor wages and they are on the assupmtion the employee will be tipped.

In Ukraine for example people actually pay to work in certain ex-pat restaurants in the knowledge tips will be high.

I have no problem with tipping if the service standard is good.

[Dr_Sassy]

You go to a hotel and pay sometimes huge amounts for their services.So why does one have to tip further?Surely its already within the price?Otherwise better to rent out a room and pay extras for housekeeping,porterage,use of conceirge on a pay-per-use basis.Then that would make sense.Why pay twice for something you expect anyway?

I do understand that guests have to pay a huge amount of money staying at the hotel... esp. those 4-5 star hotel. 10% service charge and 7% Gov. TAX are all included. Standing at the side of customers, its a lot of money added.

Generally speaking, Its really up to you if you wanna tip or not. Some well-trained employees are good at not showing facial expression when it comes to "not having any extra money". Service charge is the money from all the departments devided by the total employees...everyone gets it equally. but tip, Mr. A gives you good service, he gets your tip -- no need to share with those who dont give you any service.

By looking from the employee side myself, I understand why some people want some extra money. :wink:

Since we dont stay athome, eat at home, drive our own car, do stuff on our own.. what can we do but pay for others to get it done for us

[Dr_Sassy]

However, it is up to you to pay the tips; so if the waiter/waitress works hard and give you a good service, then why worry about the extra 10%?? But of course if he/she is a lazy bastard, then you can save your tips ... :wink:

Well said, brother. I'm working in the hotel, and I feel like some guests could sense the hard working effort of some employees and think they deserve it. I have been observing that they dont tip those who just dont give "a little bit extra work" to the guests anymore... see tipping is your choice...

[Sukhumvit_Farang]

I think that Fred's point is that compensation of service employees should be the responsibility of the employer - and not the customer. And I couldn't agree more. Even in places where tips are allegedly "voluntary", they really never are. If you don't tip, the service staff are angry - and often they show it.

Restaurant owners think they are being clever by shifting the burden of staff compensation directly onto the customer. I think this is very shortsighted. I'll give you an example: On a recent trip to Burma, there was a nice restaurant near my hotel. Since it served good food, I didn't mind that it was expensive. After eating there for three or four days without tipping (I felt it was enough that I was paying the equivalent of a week's local salary for each meal), the waiter, upon bringing me the bill, told me "The bill is for the food only. It doesn't include tip." The result of his comment was not to change me into being a tipper. The result was that I simply didn't go to that restaurant again.

And that exactly is my point: The owner of the restaurant forced his staff to rely on tips for their compensation. When a tip was not forthcoming (from me), the waiter essentially chased away the customer. Tell me, then: Did the restaurant benefit from this? I don't think so.

My point is that: Since the restaurant is the one setting the prices, then they should set the price at a level that allows them to compensate their staff fairly. The restaurants decide their prices - I don't. In fact, though, no matter how much the customer pays - it's never enough to satisfy the owner - or the waiter. They always want more. That's why waiters STILL expect tips even when a so-called service charge is already added to the bill. What else will they think of to add to the bill? A water charge for washing the dishes after you've eaten; a cleaning charge for sweeping the restaurant after you've left; a rent charge to cover their real estate obligations? These additional charges are should not be shifted to the customer when the restaurant is the one to set the prices for the meal.

[Cosmo]

I think that Fred's point is that compensation of service employees should be the responsibility of the employer - and not the customer. And I couldn't agree more. Even in places where tips are allegedly "voluntary", they really never are. If you don't tip, the service staff are angry - and often they show it.

Restaurant owners think they are being clever by shifting the burden of staff compensation directly onto the customer. I think this is very shortsighted. I'll give you an example: On a recent trip to Burma, there was a nice restaurant near my hotel. Since it served good food, I didn't mind that it was expensive. After eating there for three or four days without tipping (I felt it was enough that I was paying the equivalent of a week's local salary for each meal), the waiter, upon bringing me the bill, told me "The bill is for the food only. It doesn't include tip." The result of his comment was not to change me into being a tipper. The result was that I simply didn't go to that restaurant again.

And that exactly is my point: The owner of the restaurant forced his staff to rely on tips for their compensation. When a tip was not forthcoming (from me), the waiter essentially chased away the customer. Tell me, then: Did the restaurant benefit from this? I don't think so.

My point is that: Since the restaurant is the one setting the prices, then they should set the price at a level that allows them to compensate their staff fairly. The restaurants decide their prices - I don't. In fact, though, no matter how much the customer pays - it's never enough to satisfy the owner - or the waiter. They always want more. That's why waiters STILL expect tips even when a so-called service charge is already added to the bill. What else will they think of to add to the bill? A water charge for washing the dishes after you've eaten; a cleaning charge for sweeping the restaurant after you've left; a rent charge to cover their real estate obligations? These additional charges are should not be shifted to the customer when the restaurant is the one to set the prices for the meal.

Geez, you really don't know about the bargaining power between employers (owners) and employees in these countries you visited, do you?

Next time you sit down and enjoy your meal, you should spend a bit of time and ask how much the waiter or the waitress earn in a month.

[Sukhumvit_Farang]

I'm not saying that waiters are unnecessary. Nor am I suggesting that they should not be paid fairly. What I'm saying is that forcing them to rely on tips in order to survive misaligns the interests of the restaurant owner and his wait staff: The owner wants to maximize his revenues, whereas, as things are now, the waiter wants to maximize his tips. An attempt to maximize tips will have a negative impact on total revenues if the waiters are too aggressive about it, as happened with me in that restaurant in Mandalay, as I described earlier.

Surely there are ways to align the interests of the restaurant owner and his staff. What I would do if I owned a restaurant would be to pay my staff a percentage of the revenues. This is the same way that sales people are usually compensated and this would encourage the staff to be friendly and helpful to the customers, thereby encouraging repeat business - which would benefit both the owner and the staff.

And Cosmo, you said "Next time you sit down and enjoy your meal, you should spend a bit of time and ask how much the waiter or the waitress earn in a month." I'm generally aware of the salaries earned by the people in the places I travel. But as a customer in any establishment, that should not be my concern. It is a matter between the owner of the business and the employee. Do you tip the check-out girl at the supermarket - or the lady who waits on you at the bank - just because she earns less than you do? I didn't think so. And even though those people at the bank and supermarket give us personal service, we expect their employer to pay their salary, don't we? Why should it be any different in a restaurant?

[bobbyboy112003]

I tip for good service in any country. However, if there is a "service charge" on my bill, then they take away any tip i would give them. A service charge is a tip.

The thing i don't like is being forced to give the tip. What if the serviced was not great? I have to pay the "service charge" anyway? Nope, service charge becomes the tip!

[pdiddy]

...edited.... Perhaps we can call you Mr. Pink?

It doesn't matter if it's right or not. The fact of the matter is that people in the service industry make very little money, and they are usually students or single mothers - at least here in the states. Doesn't matter what you pay for the service, they're still getting shafted.

It's considered common decency in our times to redistribute the wealth. If someone is working hard to provide excellent service for you, you can afford to throw some cash their way. You have the money to entertain yourself in pricy establishments, you can afford it.

The fact that you're even posting this question on a Thailand based forum is ******* disgusting. Do you realise how much service workers in Thailand make? Most earn less than 8000 baht a month. That's eight of the tan pieces of paper that farangs throw around like yesterdays garbage. It takes me something like 10 hours to make that much. I always make it a point to tip out anyone who provides excellent service to me- especially in Thailand, where their wages are so low.

In regards to the service charge, ask your waiter or hotelier where it goes. If it doesn't go directly to the people who are serving you, refuse to pay it. Complain, and complain loudly. Even if they won't take it, I almost always tip the waiter cash to his hand and tell him to find a better job....

Tipping is a cultural thing. That doesn't mean you export your culture and try and force your values on someone else trying to put food on their own table-- all while you enjoy your vacation. Show some ******* sensitivity for others, and quit being a cheap charlie. The only thing you're changing by not tipping is whether or not your waiter makes rent.

This is the reason that many europeans are despised in many American service establishments. They know how we tip, and they know that their waiter is being taxed on the tip they don't give. They just don't care and think that tipping is vulgar or whatever. No one here is impressed by your ordering a banquet somplete with bottles of wine and then having the courtesy to let the waiter keep that $16 in change......

[pdiddy]

rDo you tip the check-out girl at the supermarket - or the lady who waits on you at the bank - just because she earns less than you do? I didn't think so.

Umm yes, I do. As long as I am made to feel valued, appreciated and listened to. To me, it is worth it to spend a few dollars a day and never have a bad customer service experience.

But then again, I live in Las Vegas. This is our culture, and this is how things are done. Of course, i have not received better service in any part of the world. It's amazing accomodating people are to you if they know there could be a buck in it for them. And when you have awknowledged someone's standards of service with a small token, you can build a genuine friendship and not tip them anymore. This ends up saving you money and hassle. This is how you get that $50 bank chage taken off when you accidentally over draw. This is how you get free wire transfers. This is who checkout lanes open up at the grocery. This is how you get the best meats and produce. This is how you get a good table. This is how your dry cleaning is done the same day. This is how your sandwich or coffee or whatever is finished by the time you hit the counter to order.

That is all optional, though.

However, no matter what you or anyone else thinks, one thing does not change. There will be people depending upon you tip for their income. They will bend over backwards to earn this, and your refusing to awknowledge this shows very little for your character and how you view people. Not everyone has the same opportunities as the rest of us.

[pdiddy]

rDo you tip the check-out girl at the supermarket - or the lady who waits on you at the bank - just because she earns less than you do? I didn't think so.

Umm yes, I do. As long as I am made to feel valued, appreciated and listened to. To me, it is worth it to spend a few dollars a day and never have a bad customer service experience.

But then again, I live in Las Vegas. This is our culture, and this is how things are done. Of course, i have not received better service in any part of the world. It's amazing accomodating people are to you if they know there could be a buck in it for them. And when you have awknowledged someone's standards of service with a small token, you can build a genuine friendship and not tip them anymore. This ends up saving you money and hassle. This is how you get that $50 bank chage taken off when you accidentally over draw. This is how you get free wire transfers. This is who checkout lanes open up at the grocery. This is how you get the best meats and produce. This is how you get a good table. This is how your dry cleaning is done the same day. This is how your sandwich or coffee or whatever is finished by the time you hit the counter to order.

That is all optional, though.

However, no matter what you or anyone else thinks, one thing does not change. There will be people depending upon you tip for their income. They will bend over backwards to earn this, and your refusing to awknowledge this shows very little for your character and how you view people. Not everyone has the same opportunities as the rest of us.

[Miguksaram]

Well this thread has brought about some very heated posts, interesting to say the least.

I won't say that I have had ALL the experience in the world but I have worked in many types of jobs that requires good customer service skills if I want to make a decent pay check (Waiter/Electronic's Sales, etc.) so I do feel I have the experience to state my opinion on the subject.

First let me state that I most certainly do tip and generally very well but I guess that has less do with my previous work experience and MORE to do with that is just the culture I was brought up in. And THAT is the problem these days. Tipping or working for Commission which is basically just tipping anyway, sell more make more, has moved from what used to be the customers option to flat out being their responsibility and if they don't as was stated by another poster here you can essentially be taking away from that employee's expect paycheck. And this CHANGE from option to CUSTOM IS getting worse and worse as countries with money develop. Korea being a great example and one which I have personal experience with. When I first arrived there 5 years ago Koreans didn't generally tip and nothing was expected in the way of tips either but now days its changed to be just like America (American influence playing a HUGE part here) to where NOT tipping which was NEVER a custom in that country has now become the norm.

I understand for a LONG time now and Primarily in western society the idea of tipping for CERTAIN customer service jobs has been the norm but has anyone really questioned WHY and again WHY only certain jobs should be tipped for?

Think about it, does the person who has to put up with cranky customers ALL day long at the Electronics Store get tipped? HELL NO they don't yet they are the FACE of store in the eyes of an dissatified customer and might be the deciding factor in whether customer is a repeat or not. That is just one example of where Tipping for customer service is NOT the norm and probably never will be and so is picked up by the Employer to pay that employee respectable wages. Why then if we have no problem with that practice we can sit here and argue that its ok for the employer of a food business or Hotel, Taxi service, etc. to expect its employee's to rely on the customer for proper wages paid rather than the Employer? We can argue all day that it would cause those services to increase in price and you will get no arguement from me on that but if that is what it takes then so be it. But it certainly CAN'T be logically argued that its OK to use such a system in some instance of customer service and NOT other can it? If so I would love to hear this theory.

I don't condemn the guy for posting this question as it seems some here have and to some extent I do agree with what he has to say, and its sad that the burdon of guilt must be places on the customer who lines the employer's of an establishment with their money rather than that burdon being with the employer themselves. And as far as how would an employer know who deserves what percentage of a service charge is concerned that is the just a lame excuse for being a LAZY employer. No matter whether or not you work for tips/commision/hourly/salary yoru employer should have an idea of who is doing their job or not and who is going above and beyond. That is how promotions and lay-offs are handled in a normal business.

Again if some one here wants to flame me feel free, trust me you won't hurt my feelings at all and as I stated at the beginning of this post I do Tip on a regular basis, normally 20%. But I totally agree that should be the customers total option without GUILT involved and not their unspoken/written obligation. Price SHOULD include whatever is NEEDED to pay for that service in WHOLE, not partially.

[CiaranM]

I have a few family's restaurants in Manhattan so I understand about the tipping culture pretty well .

With $ 4.25 per hour house pay you end up making nothing after tax . So 15%-20% would help alot to those servers .

The restaurant have a lot of bills already and also have to make enough profit to stay open so we couldn't pay much .

so basically what u r saying is that restaurants deliberately keep their staff's wages low to maintain pfofit margins, in the expectation that customers will tip them to bring their salaries up to a reasonable rate for the labour they r providing !! i'm just f**king surprised more businesses don't try that ....

[pdiddy]

Again... These are all very valid points. The system may be unjust and it may be flawed. However, this is the reality, this is how it has been, and this is how it will be for quite some time. You're not changing it, nor is anyone else.

The reality is there that there are people depending on your tips to survive. The reality is, most restauranteurs do not want you in their restaurant if you're treating their staff poorly by not tipping. Believe me- my father has run restaurants for decades, including some of America's finest. He will tell you how hard it is to maintain a good staff and he will tell you how razor thin the margins are in the industry. The reality is, the standard of service you received would drop a great deal if your waiter already made the money and had no reason to impress you at all. Tipping is optional, but only if you receive truly bad service. If you ever receive awful service, that is the time speak with the person's manager.

All in all, this is a retarded topic. There are much more important things to be worried about- perhaps the AIDS crisis, or the War in the Middle East. Don't act selfishly, or just stay home- you don't have to tip anyone at all if you stay in with your miserable, cheap self.

[CiaranM]

The reality is there that there are people depending on your tips to survive. The reality is, most restauranteurs do not want you in their restaurant if you're treating their staff poorly by not tipping. Believe me- my father has run restaurants for decades, including some of America's finest. He will tell you how hard it is to maintain a good staff and he will tell you how razor thin the margins are in the industry.

Don't act selfishly, or just stay home- you don't have to tip anyone at all if you stay in with your miserable, cheap self.

jesusssss .... so restauranters do not want us in their restaurant if we treating their staff poorly, but they r quite happy too pay them a **** wage they can't survive on. well excuse me, but pls re-read and tell me WHO is treating WHO'S staff poorly. and don't come that **** about razor thin margins, it's the same for every one. maybe us in the garment industry should cut our employees wages by say 20% and then next time we invoice adidas, nike or whoever ask them "hey u tight twats where's the 15-20% cash tip for OUR employees" ... sure to work !! NOT !!

well if ur dad has run some of america's finest restaurants and knows how hard it is to maintain good staff did he ever think to investigate WHY this was the case ?? wouldn't be anything to do with the **** pay would it.

so tell the employers to stop being miserable, cheap and selfish and pay their workers a decent, liveable wage !! not much chance of that is there ??

[Sukhumvit_Farang]

pdiddy: Your comments are riddled with contradictions. Let me start with the following comment that you made to conclude your argument: ?All in all, this is a retarded topic. There are much more important things to be worried about- perhaps the AIDS crisis, or the War in the Middle East.? So, am I to understand from this that YOU are the one who is to determine which topics are worthy of discussion ? and that you declare THIS topic to be unworthy ? but only AFTER you have said more on this topic than anyone else? Do you not see any contradiction there?

You also said ?Show some f*cking sensitivity for others . . .?, then you went on to say in the very next paragraph ?This is the reason that many europeans are despised in many American service establishments.? You don?t seem to be showing much sensitivity to the way Europeans think. Your statement also precisely confirms my point ? namely, that the current system drives a wedge between what should be welcome customers ? and the service staff. Your system of extorting tips ? and the European refusal to acquiesce ? causes them, in your words, to be ?despised in many American service establishments.? I have many European friends who have told me horror stories of their dealings with America service establishments when it comes to tipping ? stories that made me ashamed to be an American. And I have a few such stories of my own. Now let me ask you: Do you think that THIS is a proper relationship to have between a service provider and its customers? Maybe in America it is.

I also notice that the biggest supporters of tipping on this website by coincidence tended to come from families who own restaurants. Could it be that these people are biased because they benefit more from this practice than it costs them? Again with pdiddy: You throw around money that was likely gotten from your father who, according to you underpays his staff and expects them to go begging HIS customers to top up their salary to a livable level. And then you have the gall to tell ME to shut up? I don?t think so!

You also said ?It's considered common decency in our times to redistribute the wealth. If someone is working hard to provide excellent service for you, you can afford to throw some cash their way.? So what you?re saying, if I understand you correctly, is that it is common decency for your father?s customers to redistribute THEIR wealth to HIS employees, but NOT for him to redistribute HIS wealth to HIS employees in the form of fair wages ? for their hard work. And besides, redistributing wealth is socialist, which makes you sound a lot like the ?Eurotrash wannabe? that you accused me of being.

In closing, and I will write this REAL slow because you seem to be too dense to understand: We both agree that the wait staff at restaurants are underpaid. Where we differ is on our thinking about how this should be resolved. You think it should be done through tipping. I think it should be done by paying the staff more. You have seen the result of underpaying your staff and expecting them to extort tips in order to make a living: It creates animosity between the customer and the server. For this reason I maintain that it would be better to charge the customer an all-inclusive price that allows restaurants to pay their staff fairly without the need to extort so-called tips. Is that so hard for you to grasp?

[GoldMember]

We both agree that the wait staff at restaurants are underpaid. Where we differ is on our thinking about how this should be resolved. You think it should be done through tipping. I think it should be done by paying the staff more. You have seen the result of underpaying your staff and expecting them to extort tips in order to make a living: It creates animosity between the customer and the server. For this reason I maintain that it would be better to charge the customer an all-inclusive price that allows restaurants to pay their staff fairly without the need to extort so-called tips.

Exactly.Its so simple.

One thing that really gets on my **** in the US is every 2 minutes some waiter/waitress comes up and asks is everything alright etc etc.Personally i just want to be left alone to enjoy the food, the company i'm with and the general ambience.These guys don't seem to realise good service means being attentive and not intrusive.If i want something,i can ask for it.It all smacks of tip grovelling.I hate it and its very undignified.

[GoldMember]

have not received better service in any part of the world

Yep Vegas is tipping hell for sure(get freebie cocktails at casinos..and erm pay a 5 buck tip to waitress= a 5 buck cocktail=not free=pointless).

Go to Japan :exemplary service for all and no need to trip(bribe) for service you should be getting anyway.

domo arigato <> _ --

[pdiddy]

Fredfunk- you don't have to tip 5 for a cocktail.

You tip her five the first time and only a buck or two every drink after, and they'll be made off meter this way. Cheapest way to get drunk in Vegas. Maybe you were tipping so hard core because you were wowed by her ****?

Wait, you guys are right.. Generations of restauranteurs are wrong, their business model is flawed, and the best practice is actually to jack the price of food way up and pay waiters $20 an hour. Thanks, internet, you've really solved this one! The best plan of action is to guarantee someone's wage and give them no incentive to perform at their best..... That's right!

I was untrue about Europeans. Not all Europeans are this way- nowhere near all. Many understand that this is how things are done in America, and many try and fit in. The point is that you can feel however you want at home and do whatever you please, but when you are quite well aware that this is how our economy works and quite well aware that someone is depending on that income.... I think that is rude and disgusting. Almost as rude as it was of me to make such a generalization.

I simply feel that there shouldn't be an issue. We can all afford that extra tip, so why the **** not? I feel that if one is worried about injustices in the world, they should be concerned with something a bit more important than a few dollars.

Also, you're completely right- I benefit from a tipping position because I get all of my money from my daddy lolz... I most definitely do not make my own money in a professional position.... hurrrrrrrr...

You all do realise that no one is making you use the services of restaurants and entertainment facilities? If you hate tipping so much, visit establishments that don't ask for tips- many restaurants in Europe only expect 10%, the Japanese don't, same with the Aussies and Kiwis.

Finally, we're never going to agree on this. You don't like tipping as you see it as wasting money on someone who is too dumb to get a better job, or see it as spending money on something you will never see or benefit from. That's fine. that's your right, and many people feel this way. Certainly understandable.

I don't agree. No one's mind is going to be changed any time soon.

[bobbyboy112003]

Good discussion and many valid and interesting points. Please try and keep this topic on point and away from member name calling.

Thank you,

Bobby

moderator

[Miguksaram]

I have a few family's restaurants in Manhattan so I understand about the tipping culture pretty well .

With $ 4.25 per hour house pay you end up making nothing after tax . So 15%-20% would help alot to those servers .

The restaurant have a lot of bills already and also have to make enough profit to stay open so we couldn't pay much .

so basically what u r saying is that restaurants deliberately keep their staff's wages low to maintain pfofit margins, in the expectation that customers will tip them to bring their salaries up to a reasonable rate for the labour they r providing !! i'm just f**king surprised more businesses don't try that ....

14 hours a day they would make almost $500 at my place . 22 Bartenders 20 Servers . After tax they should have around $400 left . But those 14 hours running around making sure the customers are happy with the service , food , drinks wasn't that easy .

We restaurant GM and owner have so many bills to pay . It's 8,000sq , the rent in Manhattan isn't cheap . We have to hire a manager , accountant , chef and many more .

We provide everything for them to work to make money from us . We also paying them house pay , medical bills and food . They won't have to worry about the rent , the profit we make in a month if it's will be enough to pay everyone ( chef doesn't depend on tip , accountant , Lawyer , Managers doesn't come free or cheap . )

They won't have to worry that in the first year what ever we make is going to pay or the bills we had when we trying to build the restaurant up . They never have to care about paying or going to the court for those helth department stuff . They didn't have to put up a million to open a business wondering if it will stay open long enough to make any profit .

Now I don't know about all the restaurant . But 5 of our , we have alot to deal with and it's not easy . Even that we make sure our staffs are happy and make enough money for their school or their family . It's a culture here about tipping . No one here in the states mind a thing about it .

You spend money on a beer to kill yourself . All they expect was just a few bucks not even a cost of beer and make sure your food is hot , your drink is right , your car is safe , your clothes are clean and neat , your life is a lot easier .

It's okay if you don't want to do so . For those who make my life abit easier , I wouldn't mind giving them some extra money to thanks them .

All very valid points Posh and I respect them coming from you as I have read quite a of your past entries.

However, and I mean this with all do respect, how does ALL the costs you just mention differ in ANYWAY from ANY other new business that does not rely on tips to pay for THEIR staffs liveable wages? I just find it all a big hippocritical is all that we for whatever reason ACCEPT the burdon of employee's pay to be on the CUSTOMER in SOME customer service position whiles in MOST its placed on the Employer.

Call me crazy but it all just seems to come down to "its been this way for years and Hotels/Restaurants, etc. like the fact the burdon of liveable wages is NOT placed on them, and since in MANY cases the level of skill required to work in many of these jobs doesn't usually require a higher education (of course there are exceptions) there is always new employee's available is someone doesn't like the system. A bit of a cop out if you ask me.

[hyper223]

Now I don't know about all the restaurant . But 5 of our , we have alot to deal with and it's not easy . Even that we make sure our staffs are happy and make enough money for their school or their family . It's a culture here about tipping . No one here in the states mind a thing about it .

Incorrect. There are plenty of people in the states that dislike the idea of tipping. Plenty of people that would be much happier if the price was the price - you say $5 is the price, I pay $5, and our transaction is complete. No BS with tipping, no dealing with a pissed off waiter when the tip is less than they wanted.

You spend money on a beer to kill yourself .

An irrelevant value judgement. A restaurant or a bar is a service establishment. They provide a service, we provide money. The content of the service doesn't change the nature of the transaction. Or at least it shouldn't, and I think that's part of the anti-tipping arguments here.

It's okay if you don't want to do so . For those who make my life abit easier , I wouldn't mind giving them some extra money to thanks them .

Total BS. If I was in a bar and didn't tip, I wouldn't get any more service - or worse, I'd have my food and drinks contaminated, mis-mixed, undercooked, etc. Or perhaps just an extremely rude waiter.

Which brings us to the animosity point that's been mentioned. Why do people tip? Many people tip because they feel generous. And many other people tip because there are consequences to not doing so. If I go to a restaurant or a bar to relax, why do I have to stress over how much extra to pay someone? Determining their level of service, the price of the drink, doing some math in my head?

As I'm fond of saying: "The price is the price." Or at least it should be.

As for the business rationale for why businesses pay low wages and expect the rest to be made up in tips? They do so because they can. They do so because the customer often doesn't consider the cost of tips in their meal - they consider the costs on the menu. So lower list prices on the menu due to lower "official" service costs bring in more customers.

A restaurant that had all their costs rolled into a single price (including tip/service) would get less business because human nature would be to evaluate the price they can see on the menu, and not the real price they'll eventually pay. Those customers would naturally migrate to the tipping establishment because the price printed on the menu was lower, even if they eventually ended up paying more and had greater aggravation due to extortionate serving staff.

[CiaranM]

With $ 4.25 per hour house pay you end up making nothing after tax . So 15%-20% would help alot to those servers

The restaurant have a lot of bills already and also have to make enough profit to stay open so we couldn't pay much .

so basically what u r saying is that restaurants deliberately keep their staff's wages low to maintain pfofit margins, in the expectation that customers will tip them to bring their salaries up to a reasonable rate for the labour they r providing !! i'm just f**king surprised more businesses don't try that ....

14 hours a day they would make almost $500 at my place . 22 Bartenders 20 Servers . After tax they should have around $400 left . But those 14 hours running around making sure the customers are happy with the service , food , drinks wasn't that easy .

It's okay if you don't want to do so . For those who make my life abit easier , I wouldn't mind giving them some extra money to thanks them .

well now $500 in 14 hours is nearly $36 an hour and even after tax it's $28.50, which working a 5 day week and say 46 weeks a year means u r paying ur bartenders and servers $92,000 a year after tax !! f**ks sake if i was earning that i wouldn't expect any tips. and it's a damm sight more than the $4.25 an hour u were quoting in the previous post !!

actually i do tip and don't mind tipping, but i do mind employers deliberately paying their staff low wages and then expecting the customers to make up the short fall !!

[CiaranM]

If the restaurant high the price of the food and drink just to make enough money to pay their staffs . You will still be bitching about it too .

Somehow I think tipping is such a small issue and there is something more in life to think about . If it won't make me poor and make them happy just a few extra $ . ( again )I wouldn't think twice about it .

Ciaran , that's is what they make in tip .

personally i would prefer if the restaurant set the price including service and whatever taxes are applicable. at least u know in advance what the bill is likely to be.

tipping is a very small issue and i have absolutely no problem tipping ppl who provide good service. what is the issue is employers not paying their staff a fair and reasonable wage and expecting the customers to tip the balance. to me this is sharp practice and worker (and customer) exploitation !!

f**ks sake if bar staff and servers are earning $90,000 a year why the hell don't we all move to NY and get a job in Mel's restaurant !!