sunsnow Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 How much do u guess this person will get jail time in Chiang Mai? He has today pleaded guilty of defacing five pieces of posters representing Thailand's king last December. http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/39133.html http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/12/asia/AS-GEN-Thailand-Switzerland-King.php As the case is mostly sealed, I think there is no room to discuss the spesifics of it here. Mainly interesting would be IMHO what message will the sentence he will get give to the public, what ever it will be, short or long. As I personally see depending on how long it will be, gives clues on, in a way, what century Thailand is living and/or what image they want to give to rest of the world. Although courts should be independent of politics in most parts of the world, we all know that it sometimes is not the case. And decisions in for example sentencing sometimes depend on the political atmosphere (to the good or bad of the suspected criminal). Some sexual criminals get huge sentences and satellite tracking devices to be as warning example in USA or some Finnish college kids get amazing amounts to pay for illegal music to scare others and so on... And in this case, although this event was in no way related to coup or matters followed by it (thing of my own guess, although Thai police tried to pin even this to "undercurrents"), my personal guess is that the CNS (or who ever in power) might try to influence the court to not go for too hard sentence, "balance" it a bit, because they might decide to do some damage control on Thailands tarnished image in front of the outside world... Anyhow, if we do not go into the murky waters on the delicate issue that surrounds the special type of the crime that the accused has confessed to, I think it should be ok on this board to share some thoughts on the sentence alone. It is all guess game now untill the sentencing hearing. Let's guess. I go for the first option. Poll closed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 i refuse to answer the question until you include "death penalty' as an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_som_tam Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 their house, their rules. it's like the people that whine about harsh prison terms or death sentences when caught smuggling narcotics. they know the laws yet they choose to ignore them. no sympathy at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsnow Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 It would be interesting to see the statistics on people found guilty of lese majeste. In particular their nationality, penalties and the nature of the crime. If I could decide his punishment, I would have him publicly apologize to the thai people and HM the King and then let HM the King decide what kind of additional punishment, if any, is due. The little that I have seen has gone by without sentence, like those rised against that one guy, the very vocal monk, what was his name again, very famous. His fame has protected him, his words, from getting any sentence. (ie. does being famous protect someone from being sentenced vs. some unknown foreigner or thai in Chian Mai?) But other than that, I would be interested also to see what kind of sentences they have been, I'd guess 3 - 5 year punishments. Other issue is indeed what kind of legal system results in this kind of possibilities in the first place, to have 5 seperate accounts, one per picture, and each carrying the 3-15 years. The same goes out to the SG law that you mention. i_love_som_tam: If u refer to foreigners getting narcotics charges, let's drop that out, but consider that this punishment possiblity waits foreigner, thai alike. And this type of crime, in foreigners eyes, and some Thai eyes for sure is not comparable to narcotics charges, although both are against law per se but the hmm, "ethical/moral" setting is so different. 5 seperate accounts, 3-15 yrs per account, you don't see that the legal system might be in some mundane "human rights" issue somewhat harsh? I see that if this sentence would ever go even to 5x 3yrs, human rights organizations might be all over the place, crawling up the walls. BUT on the other hand, as said, have no idea what kind of punishments this crime has previously carried in Thailand... I'd still vote the guy being blacklisted and kicked out from the country. I would see this punishment as "healthy" and more 21th century example of protecting Kings name wordlwide and locally. This way the law would not be dead letter and maybe most ppl would be happy, except the poor Swiss guy. And no jail time, as he has already lost his freedom since the incident. This way i_love_som_tam your correct saying "when in Rome", and following country laws would be followed, but not to the harsh extend that the law gives possibility in theory. But hey, I am from Nordic country, we don't believe in ppl being ass raped in jails as "he gets what he deserves" legal system. So, I am not first guy always "putting" ppl to jail and laughing after them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khun_lung Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 I would not be at all surprised to see the man convicted and sentenced, but not for 75 years. And likewise I would not be surprised to see his sentence commuted by His Majesty himself. That's why the king has garnered so much respect as being a benevolent man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_som_tam Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 i_love_som_tam: If u refer to foreigners getting narcotics charges, let's drop that out, but consider that this punishment possiblity waits foreigner, thai alike. And this type of crime, in foreigners eyes, and some Thai eyes for sure is not comparable to narcotics charges, although both are against law per se but the hmm, "ethical/moral" setting is so different. 5 seperate accounts, 5-15 yrs per account, you don't see that the legal system might be in some mundane "human rights" issue somewhat harsh? I see that if this sentence would ever go even to 5x 5yrs, human rights organizations might be all over the place, crawling up the walls. BUT on the other hand, as said, have no idea what kind of punishments this crime has previously carried in Thailand... Then we agree to disagree. Their country, their laws, their imposed punishment. If some foreigner were to come to your country and commit crimes, no matter what they are, and receive consecutive prison terms for each act would you claim that your own laws are inhumane? you probably wouldn't give it a second thought. consecutive sentencing is nothing new. if the guy lucks out they will carry the sentences concurrently. sympathy for him can be found between **** and syphilis in the dictionary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_som_tam Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Then we agree to disagree. Their country, their laws, their imposed punishment. If some foreigner were to come to your country and commit crimes, no matter what they are, and receive consecutive prison terms for each act would you claim that your own laws are inhumane? you probably wouldn't give it a second thought. consecutive sentencing is nothing new. if the guy lucks out they will carry the sentences concurrently. sympathy for him can be found between sh*t and syphilis in the dictionary. That would be 'Swiss' then I guess. By the way, what laws apply to the work of those hordes of armed foreigners in Iraq? same laws as their parent countries... don't you follow the news? :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsnow Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Then we agree to disagree. Their country, their laws, their imposed punishment. If some foreigner were to come to your country and commit crimes, no matter what they are, and receive consecutive prison terms for each act would you claim that your own laws are inhumane? you probably wouldn't give it a second thought. I disagree that you you agree to disagree with me. Uh, hmm, now I confuse myself. LOL I mean: I agree with you on "their country, their laws", definetly! (But yes, we agree to disagree on the "rightfulness" of the imposed punishment and it's possible length) BUT I go further on the topic. Go one step further, as you say that those foreigners in Iraq follow their homelands law too, I am even that crazy to say - if a Finnish person commits child abuse in another country, even if in that country it is not illegal, damn, he/she should be sentenced (also) here. According to our law. Isn't that cool (yep, we have this kind of law on child abuse). I say this child abuse thing not sarcastically at all, I agree with you - following the local law is a must, but here my emphasis was not in that but in taking into consideration in this case the possible punishment vs. crime, that imho they are not what someone might call "reasonable". (And yes, we agreed to disagree in the thing in general, ok ok, but this is very juicy thing and area of discussion, law and punishment is so confusing mess ) But I would like to make point about situations of sentencing in more general too. In some other, imaginary, cases, I would see a need to take into account some other factors to make the punishment more easier like if some person did not know that stealing candy is crime from child (doh) with a sentence of chopping off a hand, maybe his hand should not be chopped off and only his finger?! ) (I am 100% sure that this guy in his right mind knew he was doing "no no" in Thai law, maybe he was drunk or not, we don't know more because the case was put in a media blackout from the very first day, but I mean someone lets say that gay person in SG who did not know it and gets caught...10 yrs for this? Same goes, mercy to some extent, no rotting in a hellhole for 10 yrs, although yes yes, "one should know the laws" but sometimes the laws are not that "Universal" to be aware of without being very well familiar with the system) I write this much because I feel very "confused" of the wider implications and examples that arise, and rise by myself. --> The child abuse is one example of how person should follow "generally accepted morals and ethics of his/her own society" where ever he/she is, regardless of whether there is laws against something present or not, and if that inner voice is not enough to be trusted, "lets make sure my country law has power over what our citizens do somewhere else". Another example of "inner voice" not working and which is not in most cases punishable in home countries, is corporations and individuals following very easy environmental laws in far away countries and taking advantage of it. As unfortunatly many companies use lax environmental laws in some countries to act in ways that they could not in home country. Oh, and if you, i_love_som_tam, a foreigner came to my country and made crimes, lets say, steal a candy from a kid and you get as a punishment your hand chopped off, "thanks" to our legal system, I would indeed claim that my country's law was out of line and punishment was not in current, more modern and realistic relation to the crime... (Modern = chopping of limbs is something coming out of the old old old legal systems and is still followed in some countries. These laws (=punishments) do not take into account what for example modern correctional insitutions and research has taught us about does punishments always deter any criminals etc etc) consecutive sentencing is nothing new. if the guy lucks out they will carry the sentences concurrently. True, main point was the total effect it would have in this type of crime. sympathy for him can be found between sh*t and syphilis in the dictionary. Lol, you hard ass american. :wink: We agree to disagree on the hardline approach that you favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldMember Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 not often you see switzerland in the news.its kinda of a dull place.hang him-that,ll liven things up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsnow Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Hey experts, is there a penalty on discussing the lese-majeste laws?Say if some person argues they are a bad idea, would he be punishable? Or say if someone even suggests discussing them? Like 10 years or something. Sounds fair to me. "We" are not discussing on that law, hopefully "we" are discussing sentencing! Everyone here agrees there should be lese majeste laws in place, it is here a question of to what extent they are followed and put into effect (=length of sentence), right. Because if someone would not agree with the law to exist, that would not be lawful to discuss (and you can't say your opinion about that either, I mean is the non-discussion situation good or not). So, that is the reason I thought this thread would be along the Thai law where this website is situated. So here, on this thread, we agree that lese majeste law is good thing, and we guess what is the sentence Swiss man will get and is it right/wrong (=too long, too short). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranM Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 sympathy for him can be found between sh*t and syphilis in the dictionary. slightly off topic ... where can i find anti-biotics ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackyB Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 I agree with what khun lung said. He will probably be sentenced and then pardoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khun_lung Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 slightly off topic ... where can i find anti-biotics ?? What's your e-mail address, Ciaran? I'll be happy to forward you all of the "Cheap Meds" e-mail I get...daily!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsnow Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 By the way, what laws apply to the work of those hordes of armed foreigners in Iraq? same laws as their parent countries... don't you follow the news? :roll: yes that was precisely my point I was surprised by this info, you under Iraq law in Iraq, i_love_som_tam, right? As I would have thought it goes the same way as the "child abuse laws in Finland" -case : then as Iraq legal system has stopped whooping your ass for a crime, or not even started it if the crime has not been punishable, THEN possibly you are under those laws that are maybe applicable in your home country to their own citizens outside their borders... (Military trials I guess are different, as these ppl are directly under US military law, ref to recent murder trials, but what about the contractors? If you do some awful crime, sure you are stoned to death by Iraqis (so to speak) Please excuse and sorry I_love_som_tam for all the wrong terms here that I most probably use about "military", and laws under it and so on as I don't know about those systems) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsnow Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 I agree with what khun lung said. He will probably be sentenced and then pardoned. Added that as one choise, I would guess that as good second option - pardoned after the steam has blown off so to speak. "Gets something considered in west as long sentence but will get pardoned (and exiled) after the public roar has gone by" --> gets 3 years, to be "done" at same time = 3 yrs, so that ppl get their blood from all the five crimes, but then he will sit for maybe 6 months and then kicked out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsnow Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 i think they better lock this thread, this is dangerous stuff, admin? Huh? Everyone here agrees that lese majeste is good thing and that the guy according to his testimony today broke that law! End of discussion. But what will happen to swiss man in future, that we take "bets" on. Oh, for PiAnt, there maybe should be even option for "buy me beer" but that would not just be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khun_lung Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Until now there has not been a single post by a Thai citizen. This is a matter for Thais to decide, under their laws. We foreigners are welcome to express opinions, I suppose, but it's rather meaningless without any participation from Thais, isn't it? What we say here will not change destiny. Merely expressing opinions and I say I'm right and will bet a beer on that! Any takers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsnow Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Merely expressing opinions and I say I'm right and will bet a beer on that! Any takers? Darn you khun_lung, you got it right! Yes, talking to warm up (here, still close to zero temps) and yeah, we can't do anything about what sentence he will get, but what harm is there to be done to talk about it (if we can keep anyone saying something silly that gets this thread locked), right,and always welcoming a beer, what is better than a beer among friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_som_tam Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Then we agree to disagree. Their country, their laws, their imposed punishment. If some foreigner were to come to your country and commit crimes, no matter what they are, and receive consecutive prison terms for each act would you claim that your own laws are inhumane? you probably wouldn't give it a second thought. consecutive sentencing is nothing new. if the guy lucks out they will carry the sentences concurrently. sympathy for him can be found between sh*t and syphilis in the dictionary. That would be 'Swiss' then I guess. By the way, what laws apply to the work of those hordes of armed foreigners in Iraq? same laws as their parent countries... don't you follow the news? :roll: yes that was precisely my point pointless :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony_mai_dee Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 if any kind of sentence is imposed above that which would normally be applied to everyday vandalism of public property, then the fact is that Thailand will yet again present itself to the rest of the world as a backward, anti-democratic police state where there is no such thing as freedom of speech...now, it's obvious that that is exactly what Thailand is at the moment (and has always been to a certain extent), but I think the country can do without drawing further attention to this... i'm not saying what he did was smart - it was pretty stupid and also disrespectful - but that's not the point....whatever Thai people believe, I think most of the rest of the world would regard a custodial sentence as way out of proportion to the crime committed...and that would not be a good thing as to what will happen...agree with khun lung...regardless of the sentence imposed by the court, HM will pardon him for sure...at the latest in recognition of his 80th birthday, when he will also commute the sentences of most prisoners on death row HM is a smart guy and acutely aware of the anachronism that is this law (cerrtainly in the eyes of the rest of the world)...rising above the petty vandalism committed by this idiot Swiss dude will be the hallmark of a wise and respected leader, and a smart politician... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_som_tam Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Well, for you it is, but it's only to obvious why. You guys in Iraq are above the local law. You state having no sympathy with a guy who's stupid enough to put paint on a pic of the King here, putting him 75 years in jail. At the same time you think it's acceptable that guys like you go do dirty jobs in a foreign country, partaking in invading and robbing a country of its wealth, committing stuff that isn't allowed under any local law AND you claim it's only normal that local laws don't apply in your case. You're a hypocrite of the worst kind. and it's quite obvious that you know nothing about what i do or who i work for. if you did then maybe you would pull your head out of that narrow minded crack of yours and see something. :roll: but it's typical of you and your anti-american sentiment to make broad generalizations of everyone involved here. that's ok. you are entitled to your opinion and i am entitled to mine. i do know that if i were to commit any violation of the law here, i would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law in my country. even subject to harsher sentencing so as to make an example of me. i have seen it happen here and in some UN missions that i have been involved in. believe it if want or choose not to believe it. i could really care less what you think. :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsnow Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 i do know that if i were to commit any violation of the law here, i would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law in my country. even subject to harsher sentencing so as to make an example of me. i have seen it happen here and in some UN missions that i have been involved in. Can you tell some kind of reason for why is it so? Is this done by some kind of legal paper between the employer, your contractor, the main deal maker of US army and the country officials that you work in? Or how does it go? :roll: I have understood you work under private contractor, who presumably is contracted by US (miltary). So as you in my best knowledge do not directly work IN/FOR US army/miltary nor do you work for United Nations (I think another different situation too) so that you do not play by their rules where there is news coverage of soldiers facing sentences in the US military court of crimes committed in Iraq... are u saying that you would not be judged first by the legal system in your country where you work AT ALL but be directly extradided to the hands of US authorities similar to those working directly in US army? Or that first you would face trial in the country of occupation AND then presumably the US government would try to get your sorry ass extradited back to USA to be slapped there too? This matter did not come perfectly clear for me yet. (It doesn't matter at all what way it is, as long as you get punished for the crimes. Not that you did any but...you know...) Regards, person who wants to know more about the deep waters of working in crisis zones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_som_tam Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Can you tell some kind of reason for why is it so? Is this done by some kind of legal paper between the employer, your contractor, the main deal maker of US army and the country officials that you work in? Or how does it go? :roll: I have understood you work under private contractor, who presumably is contracted by US (miltary). So as you in my best knowledge do not directly work IN/FOR US army/miltary nor do you work for United Nations (I think another different situation too) so that you do not play by their rules where there is news coverage of soldiers facing sentences in the US military court of crimes committed in Iraq... are u saying that you would not be judged first by the legal system in your country where you work AT ALL but be directly extradided to the hands of US authorities similar to those working directly in US army? Or that first you would face trial in the country of occupation AND then presumably the US government would try to get your sorry ass extradited back to USA to be slapped there too? This matter did not come perfectly clear for me yet. (It doesn't matter at all what way it is, as long as you get punished for the crimes. Not that you did any but...you know...) Regards, person who wants to know more about the deep waters of working in crisis zones no, i would not face trial here in iraq. representatives of my country would take custody of me here in iraq and take me to my country where i would face trial. all countries working in places like this, even in UN missions, have limited immunity from prosecution in these places. if the crime was so horrendous the parent country can lift the limited immunity and allow that person to be prosecuted in the country where the crime took place. i have seen this immunity revoked in UN missions in cases of murder and rape. i have also seen countries refuse to lift the immunity when the punishment meted out by the country, say East Timor, was insufficient. In one case Jordan prosecuted a Jordanian citizen for a rape he committed in East Timor. His co-defendants were prosecuted in Timor. Jordan wanted the other prosecuted in his own country as the death penalty in Timor had been repealed by the UN. he received death in Jordan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsnow Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 no, i would not face trial here in iraq. representatives of my country would take custody of me here ......cut...in Jordan. Thanks, answered my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie36 Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 CHIANG MAI, Thailand (AP) -- A Swiss man accused of insulting this nation's monarchy by spray-painting over several portraits of the revered king pleaded guilty Monday and faces a maximum 75-year prison sentence. Oliver Rudolf Jufer, 57, was caught by surveillance cameras on December 5 spray-painting black paint over several portraits of King Bhumibol Adulyadej in the northern city of Chiang Mai, police said. His lawyer said he was intoxicated during the act. The vandalism coincided with Bhumibol's 79th birthday, which was celebrated across Thailand with fireworks and prayers. The king is the world's longest-serving monarch. Jufer made no comment as he entered the courthouse with his legs chained, dressed in an orange prison uniform. Judge Chaikrit Devaplin said Jufer pleaded guilty, reversing an initial statement of non-guilt that he had made to police, and a sentence was expected to be issued March 29. The trial was closed to the public, and prosecutors declined to discuss details of the case because of sensitivities in Thailand about portraying the beloved king in a negative light. "Revealing the details of this case does not benefit anybody because it involves the king and the monarchy," said prosecutor Bhanu Kwanyuen, adding only that Jufer is accused of defacing five posters and faces a penalty of between three and 15 years in prison for each one. "In every Thai constitution, the king is revered and worshipped, and he cannot be insulted," Bhanu said. "Thai people cannot accept this act of insulting the king." Jufer has lived in Thailand for more than 10 years, and lives in Chiang Mai, said his court-appointed lawyer, Komkhit Kunyodying. The military launched a separate investigation into the incident, saying Jufer's act raised suspicion that he was hired by someone opposed to the September 19 coup that ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. Chiang Mai, about 350 miles north of Bangkok, is Thaksin's hometown and a key base of support for the former prime minister. Millions of portraits of the king were erected late last year to honor his birthday. Across the kingdom, people also wore yellow shirts, a sign of devotion to the king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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