Bush's Mistake

[Guest Tattoodude]

Aah but option (a) is preferable because war is America's biggest industry and major export. Also it's educational as Ambrose Bierce noted.. "War is God's way of teaching Americans geography."

You won't find me arguing against that . But it's an elite who benefit from war , not the poor sods who do the fighting or voting ....f*cking lemmings...

How true. The edited video on the other thread? Clearly edited, I wonder how long it REALLY took them to actually hit the poor dumb wounded bastard lying 20 feet away.

Train them and ship them into a war zone, same as Vietnam, I pity the families of these kids and at the same time I understand why career soldiers are leaving the forces in droves.

[thaibel]

BTW Bush's mistake isn't that a pleonasm?

Like a bad French film, a stingy Scottish or a unnecessary TF :twisted:

let's make an agreement. When we say I made a bush, everybody knows u did a mistake

[Bruce551]

My fellow Americans, this is Max Cleland, former U.S. senator from Georgia.

This week, President Bush gave a speech comparing the ongoing war in Iraq to the Vietnam War. He used this analogy in his latest plea to the American people for yet more time to continue his war.

I know something about the Vietnam War. I know something about the price that was paid for continuing that war long after it was clear we could not succeed. I know something about years of war failing to produce a stable, secure and democratic country.

I know something about enemy attacks increasing and taking an ever higher toll on our troops. Fifty-eight thousand young Americans were killed in Vietnam; 350,000 were wounded. I was one of them.

There are similarities between the war in Iraq and the war in Vietnam. One of the lessons to be learned from Vietnam is that the commitment of American military strength alone cannot solve another country's political weakness. This should be a somber warning to us all to responsibly end the war in Iraq and the additional loss of precious American lives.

Congress has required the president to issue a report soon on the state of the war. This assessment gives him yet another opportunity to do the right thing and change course in Iraq.

Unfortunately, it appears he will continue to argue that, if the American people and the U.S. Congress will just be patient, things will work out. He is likely to say that, given more time, victory is just around the corner. He is likely to argue that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

But like political leaders during the Vietnam era, this president has a "credibility gap." The majority of Americans see a profound difference between President Bush's optimistic rhetoric and the grim reality which lies beneath. Our history in Vietnam and the facts on the ground in Iraq today prove the American people are right.

How do I know? Because I've seen this movie before. I know how it ends. I know that all the P.R. in the world didn't change the truth on the ground in Vietnam and won't change the truth on the ground today in Iraq.

What is this truth? The truth is that more than 3,700 Americans have already lost their lives, more than 20,000 have been wounded, and nearly $500 billion in American taxpayer funds have been expended.

The truth is that, despite this enormous sacrifice, we find ourselves mired in a civil war with no end in sight and Iraqis unable or unwilling to make the political decisions necessary to end this conflict.

And the truth is President Bush's decision to go to war and stay at war has actually encouraged thousands of new recruits for Al Qaida in Iraq and around the world, has made the Middle East and other parts of the globe less safe, has alienated the Muslim world and allowed Al Qaida ? the enemy that attacked this nation six years ago ? a chance to rebuild and restore its terror network.

These are the facts. But the facts will not stop the president and his fellow Republicans from trying once again to sell the American people a bill of goods on the Iraq war.

The failures in Iraq are not the fault of our troops or their courage in battle. They have done everything asked of them and more. The conflict in Iraq is an Iraqi political problem, not a U.S. military problem.

We can't continue to sacrifice American lives, deplete our treasury and weaken our national security. We can't expect our soldiers to continue to risk their lives, especially when the Iraqi leaders themselves show no interest in achieving a peaceful political solution.

President Bush's report to Congress will attempt to show that his escalation has produced improved security in certain parts of Iraq. But it will ignore the stark truth in Iraq: that his overall strategy to buy time for Iraqis to make the needed political decisions has failed and, just like Vietnam, we are enmeshed now in an open-ended war for which our troops and our country will pay the price for decades to come.

That's why we must act now. This fall, Democrats in Congress will continue to stand with our troops and with the American people to remember the lessons of history and end the Iraq war.

[zeusbheld]

cleland is a class act. well played.

[Loburt]

I'm sure the Coulters, Roves, etc., will label him some sort of commie coward.

[zeusbheld]

I'm sure the Coulters, Roves, etc., will label him some sort of commie coward.

they already have, actually. a shameful episode even for american politics.

[zeusbheld]

There is one major difference between the Vietnam war and the war in Iraq. The war in Vietnam was a political war with two clear sides

if you believe that clearly you haven't studied the history of the vietnam war. the only side that was clear really was the cathollics, whom in their infinite wisdom the american government chose to support in a buddhist country. the main difference is one's desert, one's jungle...

whereas the war in Iraq is a war that is impossible to win because it's impossible to define the enemy, which is a mixture of religion, greed (Oil), politics, ethnic. It's war where yesterdays allied might be tomorrows deadly enemy.

this is DIFFERENT from vietnam??? your memory is short, sir.

And only to talk about what the US have of losses, which is relatively minor to what the locals have suffered is a bit out of proportion.

again, this is supposed to be DIFFERENT from the american war in viet nam????

It might be cruel to say but I guess the only way out is to let the Iraqis battle their own fight, which will be a horrible sight, but as long people internal can't stop killing each other you can't expect them to end anything and they don't give a damn sh*t about what the foreign forces have to loose. The difference is the foreign troops have something to loose whereas the locals don't have anything to loose

basically that's what happened in vietnam. once the invaders were out they were free to fight amongst each other. it could get really ugly but generally, invading isn't doing any good, except propping up a weak, artificial government.

the parallels are stunning, and the only ones who couldn't see them before the damned invasion, were the ones who didn't look. that, sadly, includes the US government.

[Guest Tattoodude]

Still I my view it was a lot easier for both sides to define who was the enemy in the Vietnam war, and generally one part got defeated, and you can in that way some how say there was a 'winner' of the war. This I simply don't think we can say even foreign troops get withdrawn from Iraq, that there will be a defeated part and a winning part

Incorrect.

With exception of the TET offensive and the few times that American Military actually faced Identified NVA regulars, Vietnam was a guriilla war fought against the Viet Cong, ie no one knew who the enemy was until they identified themselves by either:

A. Shooting you.

or

B. Blowing you up.

Iraq is the same, there is no front, there is no land taken or given. It cant be won, it's a stalemate that will go on and on until losses no longer are acceptable, same as Vietnam really.

What amazes me is that America never really learns from her previous military mistakes, their a bit like Arsenal, great at home, dodgy away.

Rusty on my history but I think the British Forces are the only army to actually win a gurilla war in Malaya and the enemy were armed with very sharp pieces of Mango and other fruit.

[zeusbheld]

thanks T2D2, i was too bored to go into more history lesson.

[Guest Tattoodude]

thanks T2D2, i was too bored to go into more history lesson.

I notice Jealousy has driven you to adding another 2.

[zeusbheld]

thanks T2D2, i was too bored to go into more history lesson.

I notice Jealousy has driven you to adding another 2.

nay not jealousy, symmetry.

[Dave40]

The only mistake George made was he gave up drinking bottoms up old boy!!!!!

[zeusbheld]

The truth is that, despite this enormous sacrifice, we find ourselves mired in a civil war with no end in sight and Iraqis unable or unwilling to make the political decisions necessary to end this conflict.

The only party unwilling and unable to make the political descisions necessary to end this conflict is the US. And at a rate of 3 dead per day, it's not expected to change fast.

so then if the US pull out the various factions in iraq will sit around the campfire holding hands and singing "kumbaya"????

[Guest Tattoodude]

The truth is that, despite this enormous sacrifice, we find ourselves mired in a civil war with no end in sight and Iraqis unable or unwilling to make the political decisions necessary to end this conflict.

The only party unwilling and unable to make the political descisions necessary to end this conflict is the US. And at a rate of 3 dead per day, it's not expected to change fast.

so then if the US pull out the various factions in iraq will sit around the campfire holding hands and singing "kumbaya"????

Nope they are all going to blow the **** out of each other, Iran will then carve up what it needs and then we have a super power with real ability and extreme views on how the world should be. Not scared of the US, in fact the careful observer will note the US apart from some huffing and puffing don't seem willing to go there.... again.

Great result all round really.

Get rid of a ruthless dictator who keep everyone in order through fear and replace him with a country on the verge of nuclear capability and a couldn't give a **** attitude to the West.

Bush has done a fine job.

Wanker.

[beej]

if bush shaved himself i.e. no more bush would he become invisible

on a slightly random note im selling these mushrooms i found at the bottom of the garden lol

What do the mushrooms do turn you so white people have to wear sun glasses to look at you?