Thai mentality/characteristics...

[smartass]

telling white lies ALL the time.

[AAAum]

impossible to use ALL for everything ja :wink:

[PeeMarc]

Here's Wiki's list of different types of lies. Yes, I think Thai people at all levels of society lie a lot (in the western meaning of the word). I'm not sure if 'White lie' is the term.

I think in Thailand most lying is done as the 'lesser of 2 evils'. For example lie to save 'face', lie to save someone elses 'face' or lie to avoid confrontation.

Bold-faced lie:

A bold-faced (or barefaced) lie is a lie told when it is obvious to all concerned that it is a lie. For example, the child with chocolate all over her face who denies having eaten the cake is a bold-faced liar. The adjective "bold-faced" indicates that no attempt has been made to hide the fact that it is a lie.

Lying by omission:

Lying by omission is when an important fact is omitted, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception. This includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. One may by careful speaking contrive to give correct but only partial answers to questions, thus never actually lying.

Lie-to-children:

A lie-to-children is an expression, or more specifically a euphemism, that describes a lie told to make an adult subject, such as sex, acceptable to children. The most common example is "The stork brought you." or hiding honesty and truth e.g. I will tell you when you are a little bit older.

White lie:

A white lie would cause no discord if it were uncovered and offers some benefit to the liar or the hearer, or both. As a concept, it is largely defined by local custom and cannot be clearly separated from regular lies with any authority. As such the term may have differing meanings in different cultures. Lies which are harmless but told for no reason are generally not called white lies.

Emergency lie:

Emergency lie is a different kind of white lie, which is employed when the truth may not be told because, for example, harm to a third party would come of it. An example of such an emergency lie would be a neighbour lying to an enraged husband about the whereabouts of his unfaithful wife, because said husband might reasonably be expected to inflict physical violence should he encounter his wife in person.

Perjury:

Perjury is the act of lying or making verifiably false statements on a material matter under oath or affirmation in a court of law or in any of various sworn statements in writing. Perjury is a crime because the witness has sworn to tell the truth and, for the credibility of the court, witness testimony must be relied on as being truthful.

Bluffing:

Bluffing is an act of deception that is not usually seen as immoral because it takes place in the context of a game where this kind of deception is consented to in advance by the players. For instance, a gambler who deceives other players into thinking he has different cards than he really does, or an athlete who indicates he will move left and then actually dodges right, are not considered to be lying. In these situations, deception is accepted as a tactic and even expected.

Misleading:

Misleading is when a person tells a statement that isn't an outright lie, but still has the purpose of making someone believe in an untruth.

Dissembling:

"Dissemble" is a polite term for lying, though some might consider it to refer to being merely misleading. It is most commonly considered to be a euphemism for lying.

Exaggeration:

Exaggeration is when the most fundamental aspect(s) of a statement is true, but the degree to which it is true is not correct.

Jocose lies:

Jocose lies are lies which are meant in jest and are usually understood as such by all present parties. Sarcasm can be one example of this. A more elaborate example can be seen in storytelling traditions which are present in some places, where the humour comes from the storyteller's insistence that he or she is telling the absolute truth despite all evidence to the contrary (ie. tall tale). There is debate about whether these are "real lies", with different philosophers holding different views.

[AAAum]

interesting, PeeMarc...

it reminds me i might face lies everyday :?

anyway, now i know more about "sarcasm" .... huh!! so complicated...

[PeeMarc]

interesting, PeeMarc...

it reminds me i might face lies everyday :?

anyway, now i know more about "sarcasm" .... huh!! so complicated...

I think, generally speaking, most Thai are brought up to keep control and composure within themselves and maintain peaceful cooperation and general happiness with the other people around them.

Thai people (in general) don't deal with confrontion, disruption, criticism or debate and argument very well at all, unlike the West. The Thai 'radar' for sensing feelings, disruption or disharmony around them seems to be far more 'in-tune' than with Westerners (IMO).

For this reason, lying (in the western meanings) has become so ingrained in the culture that most people dont even realise they are doing it constantly to maintain the 'Thai status quo'.

But, most of the time, dont believe the intention of the person lying is to hurt anyone.

It's often much like the answering one's girlfriend when she asks "Darling, does my arse look big in this dress?"

[ling_dtua_khaao]

Bold-faced lie ... checked.

Lying by omission:... checked

Lie-to-children:...checked

White lie:...checked

Emergency lie:..checked

Perjury:...never been to a court yet

Bluffing...checked

Misleading:..checked

Dissembling:...checked

Exaggeration:...checked

Jocose lies:...and checked this too!!!!

Whoever hasn't checked off all of these (except perjury) is lying....

Does that make us all Thai?

--Ling

[Bernie009]

interesting, PeeMarc...

it reminds me i might face lies everyday :?

anyway, now i know more about "sarcasm" .... huh!! so complicated...

I think, generally speaking, most Thai are brought up to keep control and composure within themselves and maintain peaceful cooperation and general happiness with the other people around them.

Thai people (in general) don't deal with confrontion, disruption, criticism or debate and argument very well at all, unlike the West. The Thai 'radar' for sensing feelings, disruption or disharmony around them seems to be far more 'in-tune' than with Westerners (IMO).

For this reason, lying (in the western meanings) has become so ingrained in the culture that most people dont even realise they are doing it constantly to maintain the 'Thai status quo'.

But, most of the time, dont believe the intention of the person lying is to hurt anyone.

It's often much like the answering one's girlfriend when she asks "Darling, does my arse look big in this dress?"

YOu have done good research m sure :idea: :arrow:

[PeeMarc]

YOu have done good research m sure :idea: :arrow:

Disclaimer: Info based on quantitative and qualitative research and info based on a few years of personal experience may differ, obviously.

[PJack]

I had a conversation with some Malaysians (muslim) and Thais (buddhists) on this topic a few years ago. The question was: "Does God know when you are lying?"

The Malays all answered "of course God knows when I am lying. God knows everything (omniscient)."

The Thais discussed it a bit and then said "not necessarily. God knows what I reveal to God."

How is that for different views of the universe and one's place.

[AAAum]

Bernie009.. i think PeeMarc has his own lying trap 'radar', especially for Thai People

[PeeMarc]

I had a conversation with some Malaysians (muslim) and Thais (buddhists) on this topic a few years ago. The question was: "Does God know when you are lying?"

The Malays all answered "of course God knows when I am lying. God knows everything (omniscient)."

The Thais discussed it a bit and then said "not necessarily. God knows what I reveal to God."

How is that for different views of the universe and one's place.

I think this is a very interesting observation about different cultures. Buddhism (unlike most fear-based religions) teaches and encourages people to be responsible for their own decisions and lives. Unlike God-oriented people who want to believee that 'God' is ultimately responsible for everything we do and say and has the 'power' to judge and punish 'wrong' or 'right'. (Personally I prefer the Buddhist approach.)

On these similar lines, there is a theory that when Westerners started using true perspective in art (I believe this started with Italian artists around the Renaissance period or before), this also mirrored Westerners view that 'God and infinity' etc is something 'over there' and always unreachable and unattainable (like the horizon).

In contrast, looking at most traditional eastern art, true perspective is rarely used. Often, the picture seem to 'wrap around' or tell a linear story. One is given the sense that 'God and heaven' is all around, here within, when looking at the picture.

[PeeMarc]

I think another thing to keep in mind regarding the issue of 'Thai people lying' is our Western obsession with everything having to be 'wrong' or 'right'. We are taught rules and morals about truth and 'this' or 'that'.

Westerners tend to apply the "western measuring stick' to Asian culture and often come out confused or with no comfortable or convenient conclusion.

Having lived all over Asia for a long time, I observe much of what westerners view as 'wrong' or 'right' are much more flexible in Asia and with Asian people. Different 'measuring sticks' are used.

Who is to say that the Western view of 'right' is actually right?

[PJack]

I think another thing to keep in mind regarding the issue of 'Thai people lying' is our Western obsession with everything having to be 'wrong' or 'right'. We are taught rules and morals about truth and 'this' or 'that'.

Westerners tend to apply the "western measuring stick' to Asian culture and often come out confused or with no comfortable or convenient conclusion.

Having lived all over Asia for a long time, I observe much of what westerners view as 'wrong' or 'right' are much more flexible in Asia and with Asian people. Different 'measuring sticks' are used.

Who is to say that the Western view of 'right' is actually right?

yeah, prime minister samak would agree with you.

i get 'cheer' for asia point. i love it here too.

the point i am making is that the downside is probably one of the most distasteful aspects of 'a face culture', if you will. nobody wants to tell the truth, lift the skirt, take responsibility, own up to the lie. there is always a way out and consequently things like rule of law sound harsh, disrespectful, and "too western".

who is to say what is right?

well, i know one thing: breaking the law is wrong. so in that sense i have to reiterate that there are things that are knowable as "right".

[PeeMarc]

I think this is a very interesting observation about different cultures. Buddhism (unlike most fear-based religions) teaches and encourages people to be responsible for their own decisions and lives. Unlike God-oriented people who want to believee that 'God' is ultimately responsible for everything we do and say and has the 'power' to judge and punish 'wrong' or 'right'. (Personally I prefer the Buddhist approach.)

On these similar lines, there is a theory that when Westerners started using true perspective in art (I believe this started with Italian artists around the Renaissance period or before), this also mirrored Westerners view that 'God and infinity' etc is something 'over there' and always unreachable and unattainable (like the horizon).

In contrast, looking at most traditional eastern art, true perspective is rarely used. Often, the picture seem to 'wrap around' or tell a linear story. One is given the sense that 'God and heaven' is all around, here within, when looking at the picture.

interesting!!!!

The Renaissance period (the 14th ? the 17th centuries) in Europe is around Ayutthaya period (the 14th and 16th centuries) over lap the beginning of Ratanakosin (the 17th-now) in Thailand.

Seems like while Europians were seeking the truth or making lies appear true in literature, philosophy, art, politics, science and religion. Thais were busy in wars, moving from one capital to another. We didn?t have someone like Da Vinci-the thinker. Khmer cultural was the biggest influence.

That could be the reason for arts show the sense that 'God and heaven' is all around, here within as you mentioned.

?He who cannot lie does not know what the truth is? so Nietzsche said.

Haha... love the Nietzsche quote... very apt.

When I speak of eastern art of course I include Chinese and Japanese art. The chinese have always seemed to have the notion that nature and 'God', Chi (energy force) and Zen to be very much the same kind of things. That they are WITHIN us and ALL AROUND us. The concept of Brahman, in Indian religion and art, is much the same too. Of course, the Chinese were every influential with their style of depicting things and how they told stories in art etc. Perhaps they also had a huge influence on the Thai view of the world as much as India (Budhism) and Khmer did.

Dont forget also, that art during this period was almost exclusively the propoganda machine of the Church in the west. And so the whole idea of perspective and how it made the view of the Western world seem, very much playing into the hands of what the propoganda the Church was trying to convince people about (God is not here within us all and within everything... but over there, over that horizon somewhere).

[PeeMarc]

The other difference to note here regarding art, as the depiction of the different views of the world around, is the idea of Paganism. I mean this as a term for the 'simple village folk' who, without much knowledge of the Churches 'higher' teachings, did origanally and quite naturally believe that 'God' was infact all around and within - even the trees and animals (much the same as in the East). Once the Church got hold of these people, and denounced them as heathens and heritics, they had to be converted (or destroyed).

This could have been the start of where, not only the West went 'wrong', but also the period where the West started to become very different from the Eastern thinking.

[PeeMarc]

When these dicussions take place, such as discussing the difference between Thai people lying and Westerners view, I believe that the discussion becomes quite myopic and almost irrelevent. It kind of implies that there needs to be a 'wrong' or 'right' way (very typical of western thinking). Westerners see 'lying' as somehow morally wrong and there is guilt involved. Thai people on the other hand may see that harmony and mutual cooperation far more important than any problem associated with lying (as westerners view it)

Of course, logically, everyone is actually 'right' from how THEY view the world with THEIR eyes.

One needs to stand back a bit and see how Thai people view their world around them in general, what priorities they apply to their daily life and interactions, to observe correctly what 'lying' actually means and why theey do it.

Art, of course, is a great snapshot, in many ways, of how a people 'see' their world.

[iBatch]

Bold-faced lie ... checked.

Lying by omission:... checked

Lie-to-children:...checked

White lie:...checked

Emergency lie:..checked

Perjury:...never been to a court yet

Bluffing...checked

Misleading:..checked

Dissembling:...checked

Exaggeration:...checked

Jocose lies:...and checked this too!!!!

Whoever hasn't checked off all of these (except perjury) is lying....

Does that make us all Thai?

--Ling

i got all those ---- checked.

[Kitschiguy]

When these dicussions take place, such as discussing the difference between Thai people lying and Westerners view, I believe that the discussion becomes quite myopic and almost irrelevent. It kind of implies that there needs to be a 'wrong' or 'right' way (very typical of western thinking). Westerners see 'lying' as somehow morally wrong and there is guilt involved. Thai people on the other hand may see that harmony and mutual cooperation far more important than any problem associated with lying (as westerners view it)

Of course, logically, everyone is actually 'right' from how THEY view the world with THEIR eyes.

One needs to stand back a bit and see how Thai people view their world around them in general, what priorities they apply to their daily life and interactions, to observe correctly what 'lying' actually means and why theey do it.

Art, of course, is a great snapshot, in many ways, of how a people 'see' their world.

I think this is an excellent point.

I did notice you used the term 'almost exclusively' - I'm not sure how much exactly but art was also used by rebels, freethinkers, and dissidents to express their religious views, in many cases it was the only way.

I think the formation of the Church could have been the time when The West started to go 'wrong' in many areas. I think you make another good point. I use the term 'Pagan' loosely as it's quite misleading, but when differentiating from the Abrahamic monotheistic group of religions, it can encompass many religions Hinduism for example, the word 'Pagan' usually conjures up images of cloaked and hatted 'village-folk' performing ritual dances when in fact there's a fair bit of evidence that suggests Pagan religion would have produced vastly different and much more developed societies in The West had it been allowed to flourish as it did in the East. It's probably why traditions similar to the brahmanic, Vedic, Yogic, Chan and Zen traditions never appeared in the West.

I think it's an understatement actually, considering the calculation of the circumference of the Earth was made thousands of years ago by the ancient Britons and by Eratosthenes and then attributed to various explorers thousands of years later, although the Chinese still thought the Earth was flat up until the 1700's - it's just one of many examples.

[PeeMarc]

Yes, I did use the term 'pagan' in the original term, rather than meaning or version the Churches made paganist appear to be (cloakes and hoods etc) as evil.

And yes, art (or rather free expression) was used in many ways to depict feelings and views of the world around (and within) by many who had nothing to do with the formal Church doctrines.

I suppose my overall point here is that when looking at a society or culture, one does so from a certain vantage point. It's almost impossible to be truly objective without any 'spin'. Religion and all the dogma and visions associated with it (whether eastern or western), make a discussion about things like 'lying' a very tricky thing to reach a conclusion about from any point of view.

It is what it is.

[smartass]

i knew it! i knew that i shouldnt have given any comment on the thai characteristics...now we're all talking about lying/lies.

though what peemarc said sounds like a good point of view to keep in mind ...it takes some people to live here long enough and to get used to thais lying...to be able (sort of) accept it.

[PeeMarc]

telling white lies ALL the time.

Errr.... this was your opener....

[PeeMarc]

I had a conversation with some Malaysians (muslim) and Thais (buddhists) on this topic a few years ago. The question was: "Does God know when you are lying?"

The Malays all answered "of course God knows when I am lying. God knows everything (omniscient)."

The Thais discussed it a bit and then said "not necessarily. God knows what I reveal to God."

How is that for different views of the universe and one's place.

I think this is a very interesting observation about different cultures. Buddhism (unlike most fear-based religions) teaches and encourages people to be responsible for their own decisions and lives. Unlike God-oriented people who want to believee that 'God' is ultimately responsible for everything we do and say and has the 'power' to judge and punish 'wrong' or 'right'. (Personally I prefer the Buddhist approach.)

That's not even true. What you call fear-based religions aren't fear-based AT ALL. The main values in catholicism are love, faith and hope. That's a direct opposite of fear.

Furthermore they don't disqualify the individual of 'free will'. It's not God who's responsible for your lies or your immorality. You are. It's one of the big issues how to combine an all-knowing, all-powerful God with personal responsibility but it's simply like that. Otherwise guilt wouldn't exist.

The BS about perspective in art we'll just attribute to your fantasy.

On the other issues, it's pretty narrow to argue that in the 14th till 17th century art was a propaganda machine for the Church. Yes, some played a role in the Contrareformation, but more and more art had no role in spreading religion right then. It was precisely that period when the instrumentation was being undone.

And as to Thais waging wars then, I don't think Europeans have much to learn about waging war, before, during or after that period.

Europe IS a thousand year war.

Are you just putting a spin on these words just to make an argument? If so, please read and put ALL the words together. As you can easily see there were deviations from the main topic. But I see you dont disagree with my main point of view about Thais and the issue with lying.

First of all, we all understand the intention and basis of catholicism, but you conveniently omit to say that those values of Love, Hope and Faith come at a price. A very big one. Because if you DONT follow the doctrines of the teachings of the church then you will suffer the consequences... HELL was the invention of the churches. The cathotic church on one hand bangs on about God who is ever forgiving and encourages free choice, BUT on the other hand warns that if we dont follow the rules we will go to hell in the most dreadful ways.

So much for 'free will'. Go figure.

But you may well be one of the true intellectuals who can think freely about God, in which case you can say what you say. But the vast majority of everyday Catholics live with some sort of guilt and fear that they are in some way unworthy or have not done God's bidding. That is what the Confession is all about (another very odd ritual I find appauling about Catholocism).

But.... even more importantly, you seem to have missed the point I was making when the subect of art came in. If you read the first line of that it says...

"On these similar lines, there is a theory...." Not MY theory, someone elses. If you want me to dig it out for you, i will.

All I was refering to, when talking about the renaissance period was the isssue of the discovery of persective - the vanashing point in a painting. This was a great turning point on western art. It didnt really occur in eastern art in the same way. The discussion was about people in different cultures and their views of the world around them.

Before and after this period in the West the church played a massive role in sponsering and DEMANDING art. Yes, also during the renaissance period there was a great shift away for this, but this was not why I even brought it up.

As for the rest, I dont disagree with you point about europe being the 1000 year war. But again, this was not why Periboea brought that up either.

Would you like yo have another whiskey and read it all again? or do you really want to argue the toss some more?

And, since you spend the time to argue selective parts about my comments, you may wish to share your opinion about the original OP's question. Or do you see your role as one of antagist, rather than learned contributor?

[PeeMarc]

And I very much doubt that arrogance or ambiguity will get you to wherever you wish to go. And I never did buy into the whole notion of Catholicism or hell anyway. Up or down or sideways.

Still, you've made no point or contribution to the original proposition. therefore you stand for nothing, other than to stand (perhaps wobble) and nit-pick. Or, is the objective to rubbish my creds in order to somehow give your more cred. Please, I don't take passangers or leg-humpers.

Got something to say? Say it.

[PeeMarc]

And I very much doubt that arrogance or ambiguity will get you to wherever you wish to go. And I never did buy into the whole notion of Catholicism or hell anyway. Up or down or sideways.

Still, you've made no point or contribution to the original proposition. therefore you stand for nothing, other than to stand (perhaps wobble) and nit-pick. Or, is the objective to rubbish my creds in order to somehow give your more cred. Please, I don't take passangers or leg-humpers.

Got something to say? Say it.

I think I've said it.

Your arguments are BS for 80%.

That's better than for most here.

Congrats!

I don't really need congrats from someone who names themselves after a turbo dildo.

And if you want to go back to the original subject, and rationally show me where you believe my logic is BS (as you call it), please go ahead. Particularly if it will shed more light on the subject (about which I might add the original poster - Thai I presume - seems to agree with my POV).

Lastly, im not here to compete, but it seems you are. So, lets drop the spears and BS persona with which you shield yourself and chat about it.

Or do you feel your job is done now wiseguy?

[PeeMarc]

Poor old sybian your lot can't even get there victory on a forum!!

peemarc 1 - 0 sybian :twisted:

I know your a temper tantrum type don't take it the wrong way :wink:

Firebrand