Democrats to Form New Gov.

[Loburt]

My neighbour...She is 70 yo woman...told me she got 2000 baht + great food from good restaurant for joined PAD at The government house...Woo hoo.....really great job.....!!!!

Some people from both sides have been paid to take part. I've had people at UDD rallies tell me they were paid to be there. And there is a photo in today's The Nation of members of the Chiang Mai 51 group stuffing money into boxes to send to the red shirts to bring down the new government.

Woo hoo ....really great job....!!!!

No offense to your 70-year-old neighbor, but the food at the PAD rallies didn't come from Lord Jim's.

[Chatty]

Khun allseasonman,

Can you just cut the craps... and say your point of view in summery?

I like straight and get to the point.

1. If Thailand is being like this what you want to do?

2. Who should be the mister PM? yourself?

3. What is the perfect politics in your comment.

Pls keep it short, I don't have a whole day to read.

[allseasonsman]

Democrats leader a frontman for Thai barons: Analyst

Updated Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:56am AEDT

Despite Abhisit Vejjajiva's optimism he is going to face intense pressure form the People's Alliance for Democracy, the pro Thaksin movement and the deteriorating Thai economy.

Presenter: Sen Lam

Speaker: Michael Montesano, visiting research fellow, the Institute of Southeast Asian Studies, Singapore

MONTESANO: The prospects are very low, coalition management as you say is going to be very difficult not least because many coalition partners will be in the coalition in order to profit personally and not for the good of the ministry that they run. In addition there'll be intense pressure from three outside sources; the Yellow Shirts of the PAD, the Red Shirts of the pro-Thaksin movement, and the economy, which is going to be in very, very bad shape. One thing we need to be clear about is that we shouldn't talk about Abhisit at all, he's not a factor in any of this. He's a front man for the barons within his own party and within his coalition parties who have worked with the military to structure this government. Abhisit is an irrelevancy who is fronting and will have the title of prime minister, but really shouldn't be seen as a factor here. The party barons, the royal muck work that has been represented in this case by the military are really the architects of this government, and this is a test to whether they can manage Thai politics in the way that they managed Thai politics in the 1980s and 1990s.

LAM: Do you think the Democrats if they do get to form government that they might owe some kind of debt to the PAD?

MONTESANO: The Democrats certainly do have a debt to the PAD but dealing with the PAD is not a process of indebtedness that can be talked about or reckoned rationally. The PAD has a series of demands, when its demands are not lived up to it resorts to extra-legal measures that the network has been demonstrated to be uninterested in controlling or limiting. So this is going to be a source of real trouble for Abhisit. But again, we have discontent among Thaksin supporters and we have most importantly an economic crisis that can really threaten stability, security, confidence among the Thai electorate.

LAM: And Michael Montesano last week the Democrats deputy leader Kraisak Choonhavan told this program that the idea of a divide between rural and urban Thailand was only a reality in the western media. What's your view?

MONTESANO: Well Kraisak has a point in that there are certainly Thaksin supporters in Bangkok in the hundreds of thousands and there are people who vote for the Democrats in the provinces. The fact of the matter however is that every time you have an election Thaksin supporters do well in the north and the north east, and the Democrats elsewhere. So in electoral terms there's a clear divide and Kraisak has no leg to stand on when he makes his case if he's talking about electoral processes. The other factor is that since 1997 the pattern of economic growth in Thailand has really disadvantaged people in rural areas of Thailand, and the Democrat Party has failed continually to articulate policies that take seriously this growing economic divide. And until the Democrat Party realises that you can't rely on some soldiers to broker a way for you to get into power, and you really need to win elections that gets you into power, the Democrat Party is doomed to be an irrelevancy.

http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/programguide/stories/200812/s2447149.htm

Which I think more or less sums up the REAL situation in Thailand but of course it is just pure coincidence that I and others have been making these points for ages now on TF.

Hang on! Coz its gonna be a bumpy ride!

[Prue]

And Khun Prue could you bring that aunty here? I really wanna know where she did get the money?

2000 baht is interesting number. Have you ever calculate 2000 baht / head to gather that amouth of ppl how much?

I didn't say I don't believe na... but I just think about the possibilities.

and khun Prue... did you ever say what you really wanna say here?

Khun bCool...........I dont think she could come here na & she is not TFers..lol..but you are always welcome to my house & talk to her na ka.....shes just curious about how The PAD doing there & joined them not for long time....thats her experienced about PAD....you can believe or dont believe ...i'm just share the Truth about from what she told me not just only from what i've read or just listened from someone without evidence.....you have to open your mind with dfferent views not just only the samething as you are!!

[Prue]

Khun bCool.........All i need is bring back real democracy to Thai ppl with fairplay & i really dont like from all The PAD destroyed Thailand & what they have done were legal...jing jing......& since i was born i saw nothing from The democrats when they were government.... only loan money from IMF & many corruption....nothing progress for Thailand with democrats....i'm tried to talk about Thailand politics nowaday...just sometime i would like to share some of my opinion.....hope Thailand going in good way......just hope....!!!!

[Chatty]

lol Khun Prue, you really made my day... well, open-mind, ok yes that's why I ask you those questions. No need to go to your place. Just doubt that she must be a big shot.

well about the politics... hmmm democrat... never done something good to Thailand, really? So now Apisit is the PM. so what you will do?

Have you ever heard corruption by policy?

How about Taksin? How you feel with him? Do you think he is the clean guy?

What if he wanna be the MR.President. How you feel?

and now he is a criminal, do you think he didn't you anything wrong?

and about vote buying, Yongyuth did it... and had the evidence... you still think PPP are clean?

My last questions, What is Thai Democracy. How does it work... what it should be? Tell me about power, about election. I'm waiting for you. and please speak your own mind. I hate copy and paste.

ÊØ´·éÒ for p'bigKus. Do you think Lydia prenant? ÃÂÒ¡ÃÙé§èà ËÃáÃÔ´ ¢¹Ò´á·º¡ÃÒºà·éÒáÃèÅÔà´ÕÂàªÕÂÇ ¢èÒǹÕé¹èÒʹ㨡ÇèÒ¢èÒǢçÃÒ¨ÒÃÂìÃÒÃ줫ÃÃÕ¡

[GM]

Democrats leader a frontman for Thai barons: Analyst

Updated Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:56am AEDT

Despite Abhisit Vejjajiva's optimism he is going to face intense pressure form the People's Alliance for Democracy, the pro Thaksin movement and the deteriorating Thai economy.

Presenter: Sen Lam

Speaker: Michael Montesano, visiting research fellow, the Institute of Southeast Asian Studies, Singapore

MONTESANO: The prospects are very low, coalition management as you say is going to be very difficult not least because many coalition partners will be in the coalition in order to profit personally and not for the good of the ministry that they run. In addition there'll be intense pressure from three outside sources; the Yellow Shirts of the PAD, the Red Shirts of the pro-Thaksin movement, and the economy, which is going to be in very, very bad shape. One thing we need to be clear about is that we shouldn't talk about Abhisit at all, he's not a factor in any of this. He's a front man for the barons within his own party and within his coalition parties who have worked with the military to structure this government. Abhisit is an irrelevancy who is fronting and will have the title of prime minister, but really shouldn't be seen as a factor here. The party barons, the royal muck work that has been represented in this case by the military are really the architects of this government, and this is a test to whether they can manage Thai politics in the way that they managed Thai politics in the 1980s and 1990s.

LAM: Do you think the Democrats if they do get to form government that they might owe some kind of debt to the PAD?

MONTESANO: The Democrats certainly do have a debt to the PAD but dealing with the PAD is not a process of indebtedness that can be talked about or reckoned rationally. The PAD has a series of demands, when its demands are not lived up to it resorts to extra-legal measures that the network has been demonstrated to be uninterested in controlling or limiting. So this is going to be a source of real trouble for Abhisit. But again, we have discontent among Thaksin supporters and we have most importantly an economic crisis that can really threaten stability, security, confidence among the Thai electorate.

LAM: And Michael Montesano last week the Democrats deputy leader Kraisak Choonhavan told this program that the idea of a divide between rural and urban Thailand was only a reality in the western media. What's your view?

MONTESANO: Well Kraisak has a point in that there are certainly Thaksin supporters in Bangkok in the hundreds of thousands and there are people who vote for the Democrats in the provinces. The fact of the matter however is that every time you have an election Thaksin supporters do well in the north and the north east, and the Democrats elsewhere. So in electoral terms there's a clear divide and Kraisak has no leg to stand on when he makes his case if he's talking about electoral processes. The other factor is that since 1997 the pattern of economic growth in Thailand has really disadvantaged people in rural areas of Thailand, and the Democrat Party has failed continually to articulate policies that take seriously this growing economic divide. And until the Democrat Party realises that you can't rely on some soldiers to broker a way for you to get into power, and you really need to win elections that gets you into power, the Democrat Party is doomed to be an irrelevancy.

http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/programguide/stories/200812/s2447149.htm

Which I think more or less sums up the REAL situation in Thailand but of course it is just pure coincidence that I and others have been making these points for ages now on TF.

Hang on! Coz its gonna be a bumpy ride!

You gotta love it...this assclown puts up someone elses thoughts and then in his normal condescending manner tells everyone else how stupid they are...

when he said "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" he was obviously speaking from personal experience.

[Loburt]

K..& since i was born i saw nothing from The democrats when they were government.... only loan money from IMF & many corruption....nothing progress for Thailand with democrats....

If you saw nothing then you need your eyes examined. Because your facts are wrong.

It was the Chavalit government, in which Thaksin was eventually a minister, that signed the agreement with the IMF and borrowed the money. Not the Democrats.

Then the Chavalit government collapsed because of its incompetent response to the economic crisis, and the Democrats were asked to clean up the mess left by Chavalit and his people. Under the terms that the Chavalit government had signed with the IMF.

The hard work of cleaning up the mess and convincing the IMF to change the terms of the agreement was accomplished by the Democrats. When they took office, the economy was already in free fall, and eventually contracted by 10.8%

It was a painful time. But when the Democrats left office, there had been two years of plus 4% growth.

Those are facts.

I hardly think that that is not delivering any progress for the people of Thailand.

There have been corrupt members of the Democrat party for sure. But no one has ever made any credible accusation of corruption against either Khun Chuan or Khun Abhisit.

Can the same be said of your hero Khun Thaksin?

[Prue]

lol Khun Prue, you really made my day... well, open-mind, ok yes that's why I ask you those questions. No need to go to your place. Just doubt that she must be a big shot.

well about the politics... hmmm democrat... never done something good to Thailand, really? So now Apisit is the PM. so what you will do?

Have you ever heard corruption by policy?

How about Taksin? How you feel with him? Do you think he is the clean guy?

What if he wanna be the MR.President. How you feel?

and now he is a criminal, do you think he didn't you anything wrong?

and about vote buying, Yongyuth did it... and had the evidence... you still think PPP are clean?

My last questions, What is Thai Democracy. How does it work... what it should be? Tell me about power, about election. I'm waiting for you. and please speak your own mind. I hate copy and paste.

ÊØ´·éÒ for p'bigKus. Do you think Lydia prenant? ÃÂÒ¡ÃÙé§èà ËÃáÃÔ´ ¢¹Ò´á·º¡ÃÒºà·éÒáÃèÅÔà´ÕÂàªÕÂÇ ¢èÒǹÕé¹èÒʹ㨡ÇèÒ¢èÒǢçÃÒ¨ÒÃÂìÃÒÃ줫ÃÃÕ¡

Khun bCool...........Well about Apisit.....i have to wait & see about him...how he could bring Thailand.....good or worst.....Thai ppl would judge him with the next election.......

About Thaksin ..I'm not his fan club....& never said he is clean but do u think you could really find clean politician?? even from democrats....They also did the same with vote buying.....i cant remember all name of democrats who also did it....for example at Jatujak district long time ago...with evidence but nothing happen with democrate so pls stop talk about that democrats never did for vote buying....every party did the same.....

My point is not about Thaksin but from what he has done not so bad for Thailand & nobody never done before like him....& all judges are from junta goverment not from Thai ppl election....so i have no idea about him....i dont care he could back to Thailand or not.....that what i've said i want real democracy back to Thai ppl.....& hope we could have new election soon that is call real democracy not just only play role with big power behind the screen...& force the other Thai ppl who disagreed to admit them..impossible..!!!

So Khun bCool ka ..This is my point of views.....I know its really diffent from you & i hope you could understand about me ..Its nice to talk with you...but i dont have much time to talk here...i can online on TF but not spend my day with answer some questions & seem like never ending ....but from my reply just hope you know me at least a little na ka......!!!

[Chatty]

thks for the info p'Loburt. To be honest, my memory about Chavalit isn't that good. :? and yes that's the story.

From my opinion, Thaksin still be hero for someone who still belive in his policy to manage the country. He manage the country as his company, which I disagree with him. He promote policy just to get rich, gain power.

The ways he corrupted were complex... and he did by systems and gap of laws.

[Prue]

K..& since i was born i saw nothing from The democrats when they were government.... only loan money from IMF & many corruption....nothing progress for Thailand with democrats....

If you saw nothing then you need your eyes examined. Because your facts are wrong.

It was the Chavalit government, in which Thaksin was eventually a minister, that signed the agreement with the IMF and borrowed the money. Not the Democrats.

Then the Chavalit government collapsed because of its incompetent response to the economic crisis, and the Democrats were asked to clean up the mess left by Chavalit and his people. Under the terms that the Chavalit government had signed with the IMF.

The hard work of cleaning up the mess and convincing the IMF to change the terms of the agreement was accomplished by the Democrats. When they took office, the economy was already in free fall, and eventually contracted by 10.8%

It was a painful time. But when the Democrats left office, there had been two years of plus 4% growth.

Those are facts.

I hardly think that that is not delivering any progress for the people of Thailand.

There have been corrupt members of the Democrat party for sure. But no one has ever made any credible accusation of corruption against either Khun Chuan or Khun Abhisit.

Can the same be said of your hero Khun Thaksin?

What about Tarin nimmahemin did loan money twice from IMF???

Khun Loburt..........who said Thaksin is my hero?? nobody can be my hero...& i'm not blind....my dad also one of an army & we knew a lot of politics not just easy to believe......we judged from what we've seen & really done......we are not Thaksin supporter but we support real democracy ....

By the way you never answer my question that are you working for Prachatipat party? ????????

[bigKus]

lol

ÊØ´·éÒ for p'bigKus. Do you think Lydia prenant? ÃÂÒ¡ÃÙé§èà ËÃáÃÔ´ ¢¹Ò´á·º¡ÃÒºà·éÒáÃèÅÔà´ÕÂàªÕÂÇ ¢èÒǹÕé¹èÒʹ㨡ÇèÒ¢èÒǢçÃÒ¨ÒÃÂìÃÒÃ줫ÃÃÕ¡

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[Loburt]

No, I do not work for the Democrat Party. Do you work for TRT/PPP/Puea Thai?

No, Khun Tarrin was not responsible for signing the agreement to borrow $17.2 billion from the IMF.

That agreement was signed by Prime Minister Chavalit Yongchaiyudh. And Khun Thaksin joined his cabinet after Chavalit signed the agreement and the money began coming in.

The problem was not borrowing the money. Thailand had no choice but to borrow the money because, thanks to the Chavalit government's policies, the central bank was flat broke. The problem was the terms of the loan, which were harsh and inappropriate to the situatioin. Those terms were agreed to by the Chavalit government.

The Democrats, after a lot of arguing with the IMF, got the IMF to change the terms, and began the process of paying the IMF back. Khun Thaksin finished the process of paying them back, and he did it early.

But the Democrats inherited an economy that was collapsing. Khun Thaksin inherited an economy that was growing. He had a much easier job of it.

[PeeMarc]

I don't believe Thailand is anywhere near ready for any democracy, and wont be for a very long time to come. So it really matters not what party is in power and who the prime minister is. It will always be about power, money and corruption to various degrees.

The reasons I say this have already been cited -

1) No political party has any solid ideology, and even if they did, most Thai voters don't really understand what an ideology actually is, and how it works, and how it filters down to every day governing. Most Thai people have never had or lived in or even experience a true democracy.

2) Without any political ideology, any party is just banging some sort of drum about power, popularity, solidarity etc etc. Any party will be about self interest and self preservation, rather than anything to do with 'goodness' for the people or the country. This seems obvious.

3) Still, the majority of Thai voters are relatively poor and little educated making them extremely vulnerable to manipulation, propaganda and exploitation. True democracy requires the majority of voters to make some sort of educated decision about who (and how) they wish to run the country, based on some sort of value system or ideology.

4) For the past 60+ years Thailand has been under a huge and powerful influence (illusion?) from it's King who is the only person who *seems* (to the people) to draw upon a set of core values (dharma) with which to make decisions about what is best for the country and people. Most Thai people can understand these core Buddhist values and teachings at their simplest level. In a way, this is the only political ideology Thailand has.

Maybe, given the above, rather than trying to expect any government party (who are mostly immature thugs and/or beaurocrats anyway) to run things, they may be better off to have a royal family - King or Queen or both - who can rule them in a more complete way, and just have the government (with little power) to administer and make things happen.

By taking away the constitutional power of the Royal family, the country seems to be constantly schizophrenic as to whether they are (or want to be) run by the army, the government or the King...or a bit of all 3 in varying degrees and at various times. Its a constant mess.

And soon, whether anyone likes it or not, Thailand will be left with only 2 of those 3, when the King eventually passes away, leaving a huge parental vacuum and no 'Father' to head the 'family' of little children.

Just a thought.

[sunsnow]

No, Khun Tarrin was not responsible for signing the agreement to borrow $17.2 billion from the IMF.

The problem was not borrowing the money. Thailand had no choice but to borrow the money because, thanks to the Chavalit government's policies, the central bank was flat broke. The problem was the terms of the loan, which were harsh and inappropriate to the situatioin. Those terms were agreed to by the Chavalit government.

The Democrats, after a lot of arguing with the IMF, got the IMF to change the terms, and began the process of paying the IMF back. Khun Thaksin finished the process of paying them back, and he did it early.

Just sidestepping here, but it is not Chavalit government to blame for "unfair IMF terms". IMF has been globally blamed for hijacking developing economies and unfair payment terms. And I have no doubt that Chavalit government had no other choice but to agree! Sure, the democrats were able to change the terms later, but to get the loan in the first place was necessary, and then the bank ofcourse has the upper hand to set the rules what ever way they like, which ever government is there trying to borrow from them, Democrat or not.

[Loburt]

I would agree with that to a large extent. Thailand was behind the eight ball, so to speak.

Nontheless, Chavalit and his government were responsible for the policies that led to the crash and signing the agreement.

Blaming the Democrats is just inaccurate and was part of Thaksin's propaganda.

[MisterMatlock]

I don't believe Thailand is anywhere near ready for any democracy, and wont be for a very long time to come. So it really matters not what party is in power and who the prime minister is. It will always be about power, money and corruption to various degrees.

Hit the nail on the head Marc. A few groups of "elites" sucking away at the country's power/money ***. NONE of the politicians, PAD leaders, UDD leaders, military, or "higher powers" give a **** about the people below them. The "peons" are there to provide power and money to the "elites". The faster they learn their place, the faster Thailand can get back to "business as usual."

[sunsnow]

3) Still, the majority of Thai voters are relatively poor and little educated making them extremely vulnerable to manipulation, propaganda and exploitation. True democracy requires the majority of voters to make some sort of educated decision about who (and how) they wish to run the country, based on some sort of value system or ideology.

Dear PeeMarc, most people do not really THINK according to most cognitive studies. Rich or poor, "educated" or not. I do not understand on what scientific basis most people here parrot that "poor and little educated are extremely vulnerable to manipluation" versus some-other-group-of-people.

I saw this tasty looking advertisement for lime juice on BTS doors on my way home yesterday. Guess what I did. Went to the Family Mart on the street level outside BTS station. Bought that juice. I was thirsty.

[PeeMarc]

3) Still, the majority of Thai voters are relatively poor and little educated making them extremely vulnerable to manipulation, propaganda and exploitation. True democracy requires the majority of voters to make some sort of educated decision about who (and how) they wish to run the country, based on some sort of value system or ideology.

Dear PeeMarc, most people do not really THINK according to most cognitive studies. Rich or poor, "educated" or not. I do not understand on what scientific basis most people here parrot that "poor and little educated are extremely vulnerable to manipluation" versus some-other-group-of-people.

I saw this tasty looking advertisement for lime juice on BTS doors on my way home yesterday. Guess what I did. Went to the Family Mart on the street level outside BTS station. Bought that juice. I was thirsty.

Yes, you are probably right. Most people, in the end, dont think....in any country. We all, it would appear, leave most of the most important decisions of our lives to someone else.... and just hope.

[Chatty]

I don't believe Thailand is anywhere near ready for any democracy, and wont be for a very long time to come. So it really matters not what party is in power and who the prime minister is. It will always be about power, money and corruption to various degrees.

Hit the nail on the head Marc. A few groups of "elites" sucking away at the country's power/money ***. NONE of the politicians, PAD leaders, UDD leaders, military, or "higher powers" give a sh*t about the people below them. The "peons" are there to provide power and money to the "elites". The faster they learn their place, the faster Thailand can get back to "business as usual."

I have read your comments for a while and I don't think you give any good comments about Thailand ever. Is it suffering to live here?

Anyway, Mr.Matt why don't you enlight me about perfect ideal.

And yes democracy is not fit in every countries.

[LakeGeneve]

I'm just waiting for the red shirts to block the airports now, and the worst is: you even couldn't blame them for such a move, it would be absolutely legitimate after the yellow shirt stunt. :roll:

You must have to ready to be disappointed. Block airport for what reason ? As long as you pay them only 1,000 b. per day they can do only for shake their clappers and visit bangkok sport arena..

So the extra 500 a day the PAD were paying convinced the PAD mob to take the airport, right Kus? :wink:

My neighbour...She is 70 yo woman...told me she got 2000 baht + great food from good restaurant for joined PAD at The government house...Woo hoo.....really great job.....!!!!

Sounds like she got ripped off to get only 2000 baht for 6 months!

The 'great food' I never saw in my 4 visits to Gov House, more on par with the 10-20 baht street stall food. Yes, obviously well organised and funded to keep the masses coming but how is that a surprise?

[MisterMatlock]

Dear PeeMarc, most people do not really THINK according to most cognitive studies. Rich or poor, "educated" or not. I do not understand on what scientific basis most people here parrot that "poor and little educated are extremely vulnerable to manipluation" versus some-other-group-of-people.

I saw this tasty looking advertisement for lime juice on BTS doors on my way home yesterday. Guess what I did. Went to the Family Mart on the street level outside BTS station. Bought that juice. I was thirsty.

When people say that the TRT "bought" the "stupid farmers", it seems to me that they're referring to the "populist programs" (as LITERALLY buying the votes just doesn't seem feasible or practical.) So why did the "stupid farmers" switch their votes to the TRT? Is it fair to say that he broke them off a few small privileges? Cheap healthcare, some "favorable loans" for their communities...? Not a whole lot of things overall... But if the TRT could get such a large number of rural "rubes" to swing their votes through these populist programs, what were the OTHER parties offering? Again, if I'M a "stupid farmer" and I have the choice between a party promising a small number of things and a party that's promising me nothing, I think I can figure out where I'd be placing my vote. Simple people can be influenced through simple promises... Telling them "I'm smart and you should listen to me" probably won't cut it. (just to clarify, Thaksin didn't give a **** about helping the poor. He made the promises for the SOLE reason of bringing himself more money and enriching/empowering himself, his family and his friends.)

[MisterMatlock]

I have read your comments for a while and I don't think you give any good comments about Thailand ever. Is it suffering to live here?

Anyway, Mr.Matt why don't you enlight me about perfect ideal.

And yes democracy is not fit in every countries.

I HIGHLY doubt you've been reading my comments too terribly carefully... And I sincerely hope you're NOT reading them too carefully since they don't really amount to anything anyway.

Nope. I'm not suffering while living here. If I was suffering while living here, I'd take BigKus' advice and leave. You must admit that it's HARD to have a positive outlook on Thai "politics" though. :wink:

I never said Thailand had "democracy". Seems to be more along the lines of feudalism/serfdom.

[sunsnow]

When people say that the TRT "bought" the "stupid farmers", it seems to me that they're referring to the "populist programs" (as LITERALLY buying the votes just doesn't seem feasible or practical.) So why did the "stupid farmers" switch their votes to the TRT? Is it fair to say that he broke them off a few small privileges? Cheap healthcare, some "favorable loans" for their communities...? Not a whole lot of things overall... But if the TRT could get such a large number of rural "rubes" to swing their votes through these populist programs, what were the OTHER parties offering? Again, if I'M a "stupid farmer" and I have the choice between a party promising a small number of things and a party that's promising me nothing, I think I can figure out where I'd be placing my vote. Simple people can be influenced through simple promises... Telling them "I'm smart and you should listen to me" probably won't cut it. (just to clarify, Thaksin didn't give a sh*t about helping the poor. He made the promises for the SOLE reason of bringing himself more money and enriching/empowering himself, his family and his friends.)

Thaksin started from kissing the big companies to "kissing" the farmers. Thats what I have understood, his political emphais changed during his era. Nothing wrong with that itself. He started from liberal right and moved more to center and left in terms of social wealth distribution. It can be argued as you said, that he was out there to raise his own income (in comparison to most western countries where politicians get voted for second terms means more money to party or whatnot, not meaning more money to their own pockets...)

Anyhow, what I would like to ask, just to clarify your position:

Do you think that having "populist policies" carries negative undertones for you? And explain to me why if so?

Do you consider that income distribution from tax payers own money among the population is vote buying?

ps. I don't have rational to explain why I do think that "Thailand is not ready for democracy" is horrible thing to say but I kinda am afraid of the other option what it means then. What it means if country is not ready for democracy, then what is the political system that would be the option. Now the thing is democracy is not solution that guarantees good life, there are proofs of the other kind of systems working as well/badly. But if Thailand is not ready for democracy. What is this country ready then? That is what I would like to see answered someday... :idea:

[Loburt]

I don't believe Thailand is anywhere near ready for any democracy, and wont be for a very long time to come. So it really matters not what party is in power and who the prime minister is. It will always be about power, money and corruption to various degrees.

Hit the nail on the head Marc. A few groups of "elites" sucking away at the country's power/money ***. NONE of the politicians, PAD leaders, UDD leaders, military, or "higher powers" give a sh*t about the people below them. The "peons" are there to provide power and money to the "elites". The faster they learn their place, the faster Thailand can get back to "business as usual."

Well, first of all, if you agree that Thailand is not ready for democracy because the people are not educated and the political parties are corrupt, then you agree with the PAD!!

I don't agree with that. It's far too cynical.

And it does matter who the PM is. One man can't change everything, but change is usually incremental and takes time. A PM can't accomplish a wholesale change in the country's direction over night, but if he is the right person then he has the ability to steer the country on the right course towards positive changes.

People often say in the US that the major parties are so much the same it doesn't matter who is president or which one is in power. That's obviously not true. You can't tell me the world would be the same place today if Al Gore had been president instead of George Bush.