is there a God?

[scutfargus]

If you believe, there is a god, if you don't, there isn't. It's that simple.

Yes, and if I believe there is an England, it exists; and if I don't then it doesn't? There is such a thing as objective reality. Some things are true, whether you choose to believe them or not. Obviously, not believing there is a God means you might lead your life as though He does not exist; but that does not mean He doesn't exist.

[scutfargus]

A well worn phrase I can think of was never more apt

GET A LIFE!

He's got a life it just doesn't start until he's dead... :shock:

Sarge, that's just a misconception. My life is unbelievably good. If I died and there was nothing, I would have no complaints and no regrets.

[scutfargus]

Jesus Christ is my ticket and He purchased that ticket for me.

That's corruption, ain't it?

I don't follow your point exactly; please explain a bit more

[scutfargus]

Jesus Christ is my ticket and He purchased that ticket for me. .

Now you are talking...

Could I have the tickets too ???

First Class - Round trip <around the world> tickets 8) :wink:

... NOT the one to Heaven though :shock:

salvation is free; you just believe in Jesus Christ; it only takes a few seconds; your plane is not leaving tomorrow, however

[eagle]

WOWO can ya asked Je'sus if he can get a few ticckets for me and some friends. I want all my Thailandfriends to come to heaven with me so we can PARTY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

eagle, are you sure that you don't want to go to the muslim version of heaven? you get about 62,000 virgins all to yourself. now that would be a party.

but knowing your luck and mine, it would probably turn out that the virgins are boys.

Personally I think so many virgins would be a nightmare, We have them here its called elementary school. And dont tell the terrorists that the virgins will be boys they will get to excited :twisted:

[eagle]

Jesus Christ is my ticket and He purchased that ticket for me. .

Now you are talking...

Could I have the tickets too ???

First Class - Round trip <around the world> tickets 8) :wink:

... NOT the one to Heaven though :shock:

salvation is free; you just believe in Jesus Christ; it only takes a few seconds; your plane is not leaving tomorrow, however

Well I knew it was only time you would try to get us on the plane to heaven. YOu just dropped 30 points off your IQ and are in jeapardy of losing your mensa Certification. If mensa folks hang out planning there time in heaven with you then the world is FLAT :roll:

[scutfargus]

There have been comical statements made during the course of this topic etc, etc.

To be perfectly serious, scuts, you should retreat to your closet. I think with all groups people look at the aspect of "attraction rather than promotion", personally I think you have done a very good job of giving TF members quite a distorted idea of what a "Christian" is, be it fundamentalist or not.

By your own admission, you don't know much about Christ or Christianity, so how do you know I am giving a distorted picture? I have backed up everything I have said with the Bible. I could have included a lot more Scripture, but there was no need to.

This is not aimed as an attack and I do not claim to be any kind of expert in Christianity so I will keep this simple. From reading through the 20+ pages of this forum I have not seen anyone positively react to anything that you have posted, it seems you have given people a look at how you think things should be communicated regarding belief in God.

There is a general misconception that everyone liked to gather around Jesus and listen to Him. There were times when people did; but much of what He said upset people. Remember, Jesus was crucified for HIS WORDS.

For me, I have not read anything in what you have posted that would attract me in any way, shape or form to become a christian, in my experience (which is limited) quoting biblical passages generally pushes people away from God and the Church.

You are under the misconception that there is a natural affinity between God and man. There is not. What most people do here, is they make God in their own image and they worship that god. That is idolatry and self-worship. You see this again and again when someone says, "Well, this is what I think Jesus is like...."

What Jesus said was very unpopular. Telling everyone that He is God, that He existed before Abraham, that He is the Messiah...these were very unpopular things to say. He was not crucified for doing anything wrong. So few people seem to understand that He was crucified for words.

It is a very personal thing, one passage in the bible I do like and I will quote (hope it does not seem too heavy) is from Matthew, basically says if we are good to others and do not shout about it then we will get what we deserve, and when we pray, do not pray in public, no need to shout about it, just take refuge in your own room and pray quietly.

Complicating the basics with biblical babble just drives people away, practical application of Christian teachings are what attract people......

Scasfut, show some humility......

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Most people view humility as a person who shuffles his feet and looks down, and say, "Maybe I believe this, or not; I am not sure. I want you to be happy about whatever it is I believe."

But there is no support for this in the Bible. Humility is, you recognize Who God is; you also recognize what a wretched person you are. That is true humility. You realize what Jesus has done on your behalf; you realize that you do not have the answers yourself and that Jesus has these answers. Just adopting society's standards, which today are humanism and relativism...that has nothing to do with humility.

When it comes to giving and praying, which is what this passage is about that you quoted, you have no idea what I do in these areas, right?

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Where do you think this knowledge comes from?

[eagle]

There have been comical statements made during the course of this topic etc, etc.

To be perfectly serious, scuts, you should retreat to your closet. I think with all groups people look at the aspect of "attraction rather than promotion", personally I think you have done a very good job of giving TF members quite a distorted idea of what a "Christian" is, be it fundamentalist or not.

By your own admission, you don't know much about Christ or Christianity, so how do you know I am giving a distorted picture? I have backed up everything I have said with the Bible. I could have included a lot more Scripture, but there was no need to.

This is not aimed as an attack and I do not claim to be any kind of expert in Christianity so I will keep this simple. From reading through the 20+ pages of this forum I have not seen anyone positively react to anything that you have posted, it seems you have given people a look at how you think things should be communicated regarding belief in God.

There is a general misconception that everyone liked to gather around Jesus and listen to Him. There were times when people did; but much of what He said upset people. Remember, Jesus was crucified for HIS WORDS.

For me, I have not read anything in what you have posted that would attract me in any way, shape or form to become a christian, in my experience (which is limited) quoting biblical passages generally pushes people away from God and the Church.

You are under the misconception that there is a natural affinity between God and man. There is not. What most people do here, is they make God in their own image and they worship that god. That is idolatry and self-worship. You see this again and again when someone says, "Well, this is what I think Jesus is like...."

What Jesus said was very unpopular. Telling everyone that He is God, that He existed before Abraham, that He is the Messiah...these were very unpopular things to say. He was not crucified for doing anything wrong. So few people seem to understand that He was crucified for words.

It is a very personal thing, one passage in the bible I do like and I will quote (hope it does not seem too heavy) is from Matthew, basically says if we are good to others and do not shout about it then we will get what we deserve, and when we pray, do not pray in public, no need to shout about it, just take refuge in your own room and pray quietly.

Complicating the basics with biblical babble just drives people away, practical application of Christian teachings are what attract people......

Scasfut, show some humility......

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Most people view humility as a person who shuffles his feet and looks down, and say, "Maybe I believe this, or not; I am not sure. I want you to be happy about whatever it is I believe."

But there is no support for this in the Bible. Humility is, you recognize Who God is; you also recognize what a wretched person you are. That is true humility. You realize what Jesus has done on your behalf; you realize that you do not have the answers yourself and that Jesus has these answers. Just adopting society's standards, which today are humanism and relativism...that has nothing to do with humility.

When it comes to giving and praying, which is what this passage is about that you quoted, you have no idea what I do in these areas, right?

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Where do you think this knowledge comes from?

I think you pull it out of your ***

[scutfargus]

u so misunderstood my point. it's about how u looked at the bible, not about whether or not we agreed on satan and stuff.

i agree with the fundamental thing but there's MORE to that. don't ognore the rest of the bible. it's not ALWAYS about yes or no, right or wrong, god or satan.

and i'm wasting my time again. u'll avoid addressing the issues again..

keep beating the dead horse.

..i'll call animal control..

Which issues? I do believe in the entire Bible (taken in context, as do you).

[WiCKeDBiRD]

Jesus Christ is my ticket and He purchased that ticket for me. .

Now you are talking...

Could I have the tickets too ???

First Class - Round trip <around the world> tickets 8) :wink:

... NOT the one to Heaven though :shock:

salvation is free; you just believe in Jesus Christ; it only takes a few seconds; your plane is not leaving tomorrow, however

waaaaaaaaahhhh.... then I cant be able to ...

If the plane is not leaving tomorrow then I have to pass.

I have an important meeting on Monday

[Khun_Sam]

Jesus Christ is my ticket and He purchased that ticket for me.

That's corruption, ain't it?

I don't follow your point exactly; please explain a bit more

J.C. : Khun Sam.

K.S. : Hey! Whazzup?

J.C. : Here's your ticket to Paradise.

K.S. : Woaw!! Holy sh..moke!

K.S. : Wait a minute! What's the catch?

J.C. : Love Me and believe in Me.

K.S. : And if I don't?

J.C. : St. Peter will put you on a tuktuk to a somewhat much warmer place.

K.S. : Koh Samui?

J.C. : Hell no! Actually yes, Hell!

K.S. : Haha, You're a funny Guy!

J.C. : I'm serious, you WILL go to Hell!

K.S. : Holy Mary, mother of, of... You; Please don't make me go there; Johnno is there, as is 2unique and Eagle and many other mean people.

J.C. : So what will it be son?

K.S. : Like you leave me much choice.

J.C. : Now that's my boy.

[scutfargus]

waaaaaaaaahhhh.... then I cant be able to ...

If the plane is not leaving tomorrow then I have to pass.

I have an important meeting on Monday

Act 26:22 (Paul is speaking to Festus, governor of Judaea, and to Herod Agrippa) "To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying that the prophets and Moses said would come to pass:

Act 26:23 that the Christ must suffer and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles."

Act 26:24 And as he was saying these things in his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, "Paul, you are out of your mind; your great learning is driving you out of your mind."

Act 26:25 But Paul said, "I am not out of my mind, most excellent Festus, but I am speaking true and rational words.

Act 26:26 For the king knows about these things, and to him I speak boldly. For I am persuaded that none of these things has escaped his notice, for this has not been done in a corner.

Act 26:27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you believe."

Act 26:28 And Agrippa said to Paul, "In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?"

[scutfargus]

K.S. : Like you leave me much choice.

J.C. : Everyone has a choice

You are exercising that choice right now

[atomicflower]

i don't think there's God.

i think Jesus Christ existed, his thought (as we have been told that they were words of God) were intended to suggest the way we should live our lives (love and giving, etc.)

for Buddha's thought, (which someone else could be able to reach the same knowledge as Buddha did) what is important in buddhism rather than whether or not there is God. coz the core of it is 'understanding'

all the tales have been created to fictionalize religions, in order to explain things that back them, human knowledge had not yet capable to understand. the easiest way in keeping people undercontrol iis to keep them fear and make it appeared to them that they are safe if they're with you. that's what we call 'belief'.

we use our belief as an answer for unexplanable and unsolvable task, fail to accomplish the task with full understanding.

if there's a God, i think he's nature (and nature is basically the same thing as science). we, humans, have been trying to understand God (nature and science) coz that's the way to explain whatever we want to know.

if there's a karma, there''s also something called 'logic and probabbility.

there are many elements that shoud be taken into account in debating about 'belief' and 'reason' but when it comes to 'belief' many people just simply drop 'reason' of and keep battling blindly

[Khun_Sam]

K.S. : Like you leave me much choice.

J.C. : Everyone has a choice

K.S. : And what if I behave myself and do good deeds, but I don't believe in You because I'm not sure whether You exist or not; Won't I get the ticket to Heaven, if it does exist?

[cs3602001]

There have been comical statements made during the course of this topic etc, etc.

To be perfectly serious, scuts, you should retreat to your closet. I think with all groups people look at the aspect of "attraction rather than promotion", personally I think you have done a very good job of giving TF members quite a distorted idea of what a "Christian" is, be it fundamentalist or not.

By your own admission, you don't know much about Christ or Christianity, so how do you know I am giving a distorted picture? I have backed up everything I have said with the Bible. I could have included a lot more Scripture, but there was no need to.

This is not aimed as an attack and I do not claim to be any kind of expert in Christianity so I will keep this simple. From reading through the 20+ pages of this forum I have not seen anyone positively react to anything that you have posted, it seems you have given people a look at how you think things should be communicated regarding belief in God.

There is a general misconception that everyone liked to gather around Jesus and listen to Him. There were times when people did; but much of what He said upset people. Remember, Jesus was crucified for HIS WORDS.

For me, I have not read anything in what you have posted that would attract me in any way, shape or form to become a christian, in my experience (which is limited) quoting biblical passages generally pushes people away from God and the Church.

You are under the misconception that there is a natural affinity between God and man. There is not. What most people do here, is they make God in their own image and they worship that god. That is idolatry and self-worship. You see this again and again when someone says, "Well, this is what I think Jesus is like...."

What Jesus said was very unpopular. Telling everyone that He is God, that He existed before Abraham, that He is the Messiah...these were very unpopular things to say. He was not crucified for doing anything wrong. So few people seem to understand that He was crucified for words.

It is a very personal thing, one passage in the bible I do like and I will quote (hope it does not seem too heavy) is from Matthew, basically says if we are good to others and do not shout about it then we will get what we deserve, and when we pray, do not pray in public, no need to shout about it, just take refuge in your own room and pray quietly.

Complicating the basics with biblical babble just drives people away, practical application of Christian teachings are what attract people......

Scasfut, show some humility......

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Most people view humility as a person who shuffles his feet and looks down, and say, "Maybe I believe this, or not; I am not sure. I want you to be happy about whatever it is I believe."

But there is no support for this in the Bible. Humility is, you recognize Who God is; you also recognize what a wretched person you are. That is true humility. You realize what Jesus has done on your behalf; you realize that you do not have the answers yourself and that Jesus has these answers. Just adopting society's standards, which today are humanism and relativism...that has nothing to do with humility.

When it comes to giving and praying, which is what this passage is about that you quoted, you have no idea what I do in these areas, right?

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Where do you think this knowledge comes from?

Scuts,

I am not trying to go back 2000 years and debate how Jesus was accepted, I was just pointing out how you are percieved by myself and the majority of others in this little community known as Thailand Friends.

I mentioned previously that I have met with several "men of the cloth" so to speak and have had some excellent discussions with them, both face to face and via email.

I believe these 2 guys have a gift, one that enabled them to give a real positive impression of the "love of god", to me that really is a gift as my mind can be quick to close when the issue of the "Church" comes along.

One of the guys I chatted with, we talked about the quesiton of God and how people often complicate things and take things to extremes, he suggested I read a book, a book that is pretty cool in my opinion.

The book comes from the conversations and writings of a 17th Century Carmelite Monk, Bother Lawrence, a lay brother employed in the kitchen of a monastary in France.....After his death some of his conversations were recalled and letters were found, translated and can now be seen read as a collection.

The Practise Of The Presense Of God, is easy reading, easy to understand and very simple, written by a truly humble man.

Scuts, please stop jumping on the defensive and try to see things from someone elses point of view, you do not need to "prove" anything, sometimes there are no rights or wrongs, what is real to you may not necessarily be true.

I suggest you have a look at the book:

http://www.practicegodspresence.com/

[scutfargus]

K.S. : Like you leave me much choice.

J.C. : Everyone has a choice

K.S. : And what if I behave myself and do good deeds, but I don't believe in You because I'm not sure whether You exist or not; Won't I get the ticket to Heaven, if it does exist?

Exactly; now you understand.

Joh 6:28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

[scutfargus]

Scuts,

I am not trying to go back 2000 years and debate how Jesus was accepted, I was just pointing out how you are percieved by myself and the majority of others in this little community known as Thailand Friends.

I know exactly how I am perceived. I have no problem with that. I was a teacher for 29 years...part of the preparation, perhaps.

I mentioned previously that I have met with several "men of the cloth" so to speak and have had some excellent discussions with them, both face to face and via email.

I believe these 2 guys have a gift, one that enabled them to give a real positive impression of the "love of god", to me that really is a gift as my mind can be quick to close when the issue of the "Church" comes along.

One of the guys I chatted with, we talked about the quesiton of God and how people often complicate things and take things to extremes, he suggested I read a book, a book that is pretty cool in my opinion.

Maybe I am reading you wrong, but you seem to be under the impression that you will hear God's words and say, "Yeah, that's right. I can feel that inside."

If none of these excellent people spoke to you about the necessity of believing in Jesus Christ, then you just wasted a lot of time.

The book comes from the conversations and writings of a 17th Century Carmelite Monk, Bother Lawrence, a lay brother employed in the kitchen of a monastary in France.....After his death some of his conversations were recalled and letters were found, translated and can now be seen read as a collection.

The Practise Of The Presense Of God, is easy reading, easy to understand and very simple, written by a truly humble man.

Your definition of humble (and the idea perpetrated by some churches) is completely 180 degrees out of whack.

Moses was called the meekest man who ever lived and when the Israelites build a golden calf to worship, he ground up the calf in water and made them drink it. We build our golden calves today out of our own souls.

[WiCKeDBiRD]

waaaaaaaaahhhh.... then I cant be able to ...

If the plane is not leaving tomorrow then I have to pass.

I have an important meeting on Monday

Act 26:22 (Paul is speaking to Festus, governor of Judaea, and to Herod Agrippa) "To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying that the prophets and Moses said would come to pass:

Act 26:23 that the Christ must suffer and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles."

Act 26:24 And as he was saying these things in his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, "Paul, you are out of your mind; your great learning is driving you out of your mind."

Act 26:25 But Paul said, "I am not out of my mind, most excellent Festus, but I am speaking true and rational words.

Act 26:26 For the king knows about these things, and to him I speak boldly. For I am persuaded that none of these things has escaped his notice, for this has not been done in a corner.

Act 26:27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you believe."

Act 26:28 And Agrippa said to Paul, "In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?"

errrrrrrrrr ... what do you mean ?

You mean... I could go tomorrow now?

and then I could manage to be able to make it back on time for an important meeting on Monday too??

Wow... COOL 8) :wink:

[scutfargus]

i don't think there's God.

i think Jesus Christ existed, his thought (as we have been told that they were words of God) were intended to suggest the way we should live our lives (love and giving, etc.)

Most people take a handful of verses out of the Bible, out of context, and think that is who Jesus is. Some people have some sort of idea who Jesus is apart from any substance. They look in themselves, they think, "Okay, here is something I think is good." And then they attribute it to Jesus.

What Jesus said made people so angry that, after 3-4 years, He was killed for His words.

for Buddha's thought, (which someone else could be able to reach the same knowledge as Buddha did) what is important in buddhism rather than whether or not there is God. coz the core of it is 'understanding'

Buddha is just a man. You can believe in Buddha or in Jesus Christ. Up to you.

all the tales have been created to fictionalize religions, in order to explain things that back them, human knowledge had not yet capable to understand. the easiest way in keeping people undercontrol iis to keep them fear and make it appeared to them that they are safe if they're with you. that's what we call 'belief'.

we use our belief as an answer for unexplanable and unsolvable task, fail to accomplish the task with full understanding.

if there's a God, i think he's nature (and nature is basically the same thing as science). we, humans, have been trying to understand God (nature and science) coz that's the way to explain whatever we want to know.

Speaking of logic, you first imply that religion is pulled out of nature, and somebody does that to keep somebody else in line....and then you say we should look to nature for our answers. Do you see the fallacy in your logic here?

There is nothing more unnatural than a religion which requires the sacrifice of spotless animals for their sins. There is nothing more unnatural than a religion that, 700 years before it happens, describes Jesus on the cross dying for your sins.

There is nothing more unnatural than a man who, by almost everyone's opinion here, is a good, kind, and forgiving man--and yet, this man was killed for His words.

There is nothing more unnatural than a book written over a period of 3000 years, by over 40 differenent authors from all walks of life, and they all talk about the same person, Jesus Christ.

There is nothing more unnatural than a book which, from the first day it was printed, it has been the best selling book month after month from then until now.

[cs3602001]

Scuts,

I am not trying to go back 2000 years and debate how Jesus was accepted, I was just pointing out how you are percieved by myself and the majority of others in this little community known as Thailand Friends.

I know exactly how I am perceived. I have no problem with that. I was a teacher for 29 years...part of the preparation, perhaps.

I mentioned previously that I have met with several "men of the cloth" so to speak and have had some excellent discussions with them, both face to face and via email.

I believe these 2 guys have a gift, one that enabled them to give a real positive impression of the "love of god", to me that really is a gift as my mind can be quick to close when the issue of the "Church" comes along.

One of the guys I chatted with, we talked about the quesiton of God and how people often complicate things and take things to extremes, he suggested I read a book, a book that is pretty cool in my opinion.

Maybe I am reading you wrong, but you seem to be under the impression that you will hear God's words and say, "Yeah, that's right. I can feel that inside."

If none of these excellent people spoke to you about the necessity of believing in Jesus Christ, then you just wasted a lot of time.

The book comes from the conversations and writings of a 17th Century Carmelite Monk, Bother Lawrence, a lay brother employed in the kitchen of a monastary in France.....After his death some of his conversations were recalled and letters were found, translated and can now be seen read as a collection.

The Practise Of The Presense Of God, is easy reading, easy to understand and very simple, written by a truly humble man.

Your definition of humble (and the idea perpetrated by some churches) is completely 180 degrees out of whack.

Moses was called the meekest man who ever lived and when the Israelites build a golden calf to worship, he ground up the calf in water and made them drink it. We build our golden calves today out of our own souls.

My definition of humble regarding Brother Lawrence is shared by many people in religious/spiritual communities alike, Brother Lawrence did not seek prestige, recognition or material things, he sought to serve God, he remained a lay brother until his death at around 80 years old believing he was constantly learning to serve, he was not interested in a higher position...just to know he was pleasing God was enough.

Scuts, that is humility, sounding off regarding how much you know and how others are all totally wrong in their ideas is well.......a show of egomania.

EG: "Your definition of humble (and the idea perpetrated by some churches) is completely 180 degrees out of whack" Why? Because YOU SAY SO? Ego seems to be a shortcoming of yours or will you tell me you have no shortcomings????

[scutfargus]

My definition of humble regarding Brother Lawrence is shared by many people in religious/spiritual communities alike, Brother Lawrence did not seek prestige, recognition or material things, he sought to serve God, he remained a lay brother until his death at around 80 years old believing he was constantly learning to serve, he was not interested in a higher position...just to know he was pleasing God was enough.

Scuts, that is humility, sounding off regarding how much you know and how others are all totally wrong in their ideas is well.......a show of egomania.

So, you are saying that I am seeking prestige or some sort of higher position or something? I am simply speaking dogmatically; I am simply speaking with authority. I've read several people who have spoken dogmatically about this and that, and alluded to two of them in a post.

Would you agree that Jesus is humble?

Then...

Mat 7:28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,

Mat 7:29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.

Jesus spoke dogmatically. He was killed for what He said. Paul was killed for what he said. Peter was killed for what he said. Why do you think that when someone speaks the truth, everyone is going to like it and like him? Even secular history is filled with scientists who were persecuted for speaking the truth.

And the high priest answered and said to Him, I adjure you by the living God that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.

Mat 26:64 Jesus said to him, You said it. I tell you more. From this time you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of the heavens.

Mat 26:65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, now you have heard his blasphemy.

Mat 26:66 What do you think? They answered and said, He is worthy of death.

Mat 26:67 Then they spat in His face and beat Him with the fist. And others struck Him with the palms of their hands.

These are words, dogmatic words, words of truth spoken by meek and gentle Jesus. Do you see how man responds to words of truth?

[cs3602001]

My definition of humble regarding Brother Lawrence is shared by many people in religious/spiritual communities alike, Brother Lawrence did not seek prestige, recognition or material things, he sought to serve God, he remained a lay brother until his death at around 80 years old believing he was constantly learning to serve, he was not interested in a higher position...just to know he was pleasing God was enough.

Scuts, that is humility, sounding off regarding how much you know and how others are all totally wrong in their ideas is well.......a show of egomania.

So, you are saying that I am seeking prestige or some sort of higher position or something? I am simply speaking dogmatically; I am simply speaking with authority. I've read several people who have spoken dogmatically about this and that, and alluded to two of them in a post.

Would you agree that Jesus is humble?

Then...

Mat 7:28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,

Mat 7:29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.

Jesus spoke dogmatically. He was killed for what He said. Paul was killed for what he said. Peter was killed for what he said. Why do you think that when someone speaks the truth, everyone is going to like it and like him? Even secular history is filled with scientists who were persecuted for speaking the truth.

And the high priest answered and said to Him, I adjure you by the living God that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.

Mat 26:64 Jesus said to him, You said it. I tell you more. From this time you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of the heavens.

Mat 26:65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, now you have heard his blasphemy.

Mat 26:66 What do you think? They answered and said, He is worthy of death.

Mat 26:67 Then they spat in His face and beat Him with the fist. And others struck Him with the palms of their hands.

These are words, dogmatic words, words of truth spoken by meek and gentle Jesus. Do you see how man responds to words of truth?

You say you speak with "authority", whose authority is that? You are not in a class room here and regardless of what you think, others have just as much "authority" in what they say as you.

I could state that I am now speaking with authority" and the follwing is fact, non-quesiotnable:

Jesus was not he messiah:

1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.

3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.

You seem to totally fail in appreciating that in many cases I have not been questioning Jesus, but have been questioning you, but you have a total lack of understanding for anyones view point but your own, dogmatic in answering your own quesitons and attempting to enforce your views on others.

As I suggested read the book by Brother Lawrence, there are no "experts" where faith is concerned....

[KhunKo]

If you believe, there is a god, if you don't, there isn't. It's that simple.

Yes, and if I believe there is an England, it exists; and if I don't then it doesn't? There is such a thing as objective reality. Some things are true, whether you choose to believe them or not. Obviously, not believing there is a God means you might lead your life as though He does not exist; but that does not mean He doesn't exist.

...what have England to do with GOD???? gheeezzzz

[scutfargus]

You say you speak with "authority", whose authority is that? You are not in a class room here and regardless of what you think, others have just as much "authority" in what they say as you.

With the authority of the Word of Truth.

I could state that I am now speaking with authority" and the follwing is fact, non-quesiotnable:

Jesus was not he messiah:

1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

The prophecies concerning the Messiah spoke of His first and second advent; as He would be when He first came to die for our sins (the gospels) and then when He returns to wipe out much of the world (the book of Revelation).

Do you have some examples which fall outside of these parameters? You will note that whenver I have been asked for documentation or logic, I have provided them.

2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.

For instance....?

3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.

I warn you that you are going to have a difficult time here, as I spend several hours a day translating from the Hebrew and Greek into the English...but I am willing to listen to your examples.

You seem to totally fail in appreciating that in many cases I have not been questioning Jesus, but have been questioning you, but you have a total lack of understanding for anyones view point but your own, dogmatic in answering your own quesitons and attempting to enforce your views on others.

As I suggested read the book by Brother Lawrence, there are no "experts" where faith is concerned....

And why again I should be interested in the words of a man?