is there a God?

[scutfargus]

Here ya go Scuts........Something the Jews would liek you to read:

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

The final Temple will be a memorial to what Christ did on the cross and will be found in the Millennium.

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

This will take place at the end of the Tribulation, beginning of the Millennium (I am a little rusty on my eschatology). What happens is, the Church is taken out of world (not the Catholic church or the Baptist church, but those who believe in Jesus Christ). What will be left will complete the Age of Israel, which is also known as Daniel's 70th week (the 7 year Tribulation). Almost immediately, there will be 144,000 Jews who will be saved and they will be evangelists early into the Tribulation (Rev. 14).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

This is a reference to the Millennium.

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

Another reference to the Millennium. Let's see if I can explain this easily...we cannot have world peace the end of animal ferocity, etc, as long as there are people on this earth with sin natures. That just won't happen. We may think we are "evolving" as humans, but man's inhumanity to man seems to increase daily.

Do you recall in the gospels Jesus talking about the two workers in the field, and one will be taken and one will be left (read what Jesus says in Matt. 25:31-46, so you don't think these ideas were just tacked on later; actually, all of Matt. 24-25 deal with this particular topic, all words of Jesus; there are also passages in Daniel, if you would like me to give those to you, let me know). This is not the rapture, but the baptism of fire. Just as the flood removed corrupted man from the earth, the baptism of fire will remove all of the unbelievers from the earth.

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Not yet, absolutely right.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

This is a problem which has confounded Jews back to the time of Jesus. There seemed to be two different Messiahs--the One Who would return to conquer and to restore Israel and to restore the earth to its previous perfection(Rev. 21). The other Messiah is the suffering survant of Isa. 53 (I know how it is misinterpreted...you don't have to tell me).

When Jesus came, people were looking for someone to remove the shackles of Rome. However, they did not grasp that there was more to God's plan than a simple restoration of Israel to the land originally given to Abraham (a much larger piece of real estate than Israel has ever possessed). Even John the Baptizer, not fully understanding what was going on, send his disciples to Jesus to ask Him if He was the Messiah.

There is a lot more to this world than simply Israel. We have the problem of our sin natures. We have the problem that we are naturally antagonistic toward God, as this thread has shown. We are not antagonistic to religion and we are not naturally antagonistic to a made-up personna for Jesus, but we are antagonistic toward Who and What God really is. God is perfect righteousness, and at best, we can find someone that we think we are better than (most people point to child molesters, rapists and murderers to feel better about themselves). It is in our very nature to do wrong. Even if we have our own standards, rejecting God's standards, we still violate those standards. It is our nature. Yours and mine. No matter what, if we are going to have any continued future with God, the sin nature has to be addressed and our personal sins have to be dealt with . God is not going to have a relationship with people who are against Him. Remember when Jesus was talking about how lust is the same as adultery, and that if you lusted, then you should pluck out your eyes, lest you be cast into hell? He obviously was not telling anyone to pluck out their eyes. He was stating the high stakes of disobeying God in any way...in the most trivial of sins (to some people). If you could not sin by plucking out your eyes, that would be perferable. This is what the cross was all about and what all the animal sacrifices were all about. Our sins had to be paid for, and Jesus did that.

It looks as though you have simply copied these from a web site (which a lot of people do nowadays...it certainly beats thinking, doesn't it?). It looks like the rest of what you have here is not excessive, so I will answer that as well.

[scutfargus]

2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

The Old Testament was completed; but not prophecy. Obviously, this would be a problem position for any Jew to take, if that Jew also believed in the Messiah.

Jesus did what all Old Testament prophets did--His prophecies were for a far time into the future (His prophecies concerning the Tribulation in Matt. 24-25) and He prophesied about things that would come to pass in the near future (His death on the cross). This way, the short-term prophecies could be verified by the people who heard them, giving creedence to the long term prophecies. If you are not simply cutting and pasting from a web site, but you know these points of view, then you know this was the approach of all the prophets to Israel.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

As I already covered in a previous post, Jesus was legally a descendant of David and Abraham through Joseph, his legal, but not real father. This was the line of the Coniah curse, which someone asked me out of the blue (meaning he just took it off some website himself--because who actually knows about the Coniah curse?). Mary was also descended from Abraham and David, but not through Coniah. As for this having to come through the father of Jesus, maybe you should read those passages before citing them? They are certainly related to this topic, but do not require the father of Jesus to be descended from David (God, of course, is the Father of Jesus).

I should take this time to just touch on the reason for the virgin birth. Most people think it is a sign. Well, of course, it is...but, it goes back to Adam and Eve and the difference between their sins. Eve sinned because she was deceived; but Adam sinned by choice. He looked at Eve, with whom he was in love, and knew he had to make a choice--between the woman or God--and he chose the woman. Adam, as the federal head of the human race, sinned knowing that the consequences would be separation from God. For this reason, the sin natural is passed down through the male and not through the female (much like the male determines the gender of a child). So, if someone is born from a woman alone (born, not cloned), they will be born without a sin nature. That is the key.

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

We already talked about this, remember?

[CiaranM]

There is a lot more to this world than simply Israel. We have the problem of our sin natures. We have the problem that we are naturally antagonistic toward God, as this thread has shown. We are not antagonistic to religion and we are not naturally antagonistic to a made-up personna for Jesus, but we are antagonistic toward Who and What God really is.

It looks as though you have simply copied these from a web site (which a lot of people do nowadays...it certainly beats thinking, doesn't it?). It looks like the rest of what you have here is not excessive, so I will answer that as well.

i don't think anybody here has been antagonistic towards god (or if they have sorry i missed it). what ppl r antagonistic towards is u and ur dogmatic assertion that u right and everybody else is wrong. that ur view of god/jesus is right and everybody else is wrong. unless they agree with u.

now i don't whether craig copied his stuff from a website or not, but i will freely admit to using google and yahoo to look up related articles on some of the forums i get involved in. common sense really and it does help to get a better picture of different aspects of the discussion. however, ur snide comment that it beats thinking is fairly ludicrous coming from someone who refuses to accept anything else as the truth except for ur interpretration of what the bible actually says and u continually post a stream of quotes from this book.

now that certainly does f**king beat thinking

[scutfargus]

3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

Isa 7:14 So, the Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel. Let me approach this from the standpoint of logic, rather than the Hebrew (although we can go there if you want). How would it be a sign to be born of a young woman?

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

Okay, they have gouged my hands and feet...I don't have a problem with that. That is still in keeping with the cross and what was done. It was not the bleeding of Jesus which saves us...that is a metaphor. When Golgotha went pitch black and Jesus screamed, God poured the judgment for all of our sins upon Him. NO ONE saw Jesus die for our sins. Not even the people who were there.

By the way, do you recall the first Passover? Where was the blood splashed? Now, think about what that looks like. Don't forget, the blood will drip down from the top of the door frame. Can you picture that in your mind?

Why do you think Adam and Eve's fig leafs were replaced by animal skins? Do you think that was simply a fashion statement? Do you think that was simply God saying, "Here, these will be better for clothes."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

I completely agree with you that God told the Jews that He would cast them out of the Land of Promise. This goes back to Lev. 26, before they even entered the Land of Promise.

However, what you fail to recognize (well, what that website fails to recognize), is that Messianic prophecies were often interwoven into the Scripture, so that, even though prior to Jesus, passages that Jews recognized as Messianic, were not in their entirety Messianic.

However, from Isa. 52:13 through 53:12, we are speaking of God's suffering servant, which is not Israel, but Jesus.

He was despised and forsaken by men. [He was] a man of pains and He knew personal catastrophe (or, was acquainted with grief). He was like one from whom men hide their face. He was despised and we did not esteem Him. Surely, our griefs He Himself took away and our sorrows [or pains] He carried. Yet, we ourselves esteemed HIm stricken, struck by God and afflicted.

Certainly I will agree that Jews have suffered over the years; but they did not take away my griefs nor did they carry my sorrows and pains.

God told the Jews that they would come back to their true Messiah:

?And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon those inhabiting Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication and they will be caused to look to Me Whom they have pierced and they will lament in great mourning over an only child and be caused to grievously weep over Him as one grievously weeps over the loss of a first-born. " (Zech. 12:10).

Now, let me ask you what you will do with all of this information? The pharisees and the sadduccees often tried to trip Jesus up, and asked Him a myriad of questions. They really were not looking for any information; they just wanted to see if they could get Him to say something wrong. Is this what you are after, or are you willing to be objective about this?

[scutfargus]

however, ur snide comment that it beats thinking is fairly ludicrous

If I was too harsh in this remark, I apologize. Some of this stuff has already been covered. It leads me to believe that it was just cut and pasted and I am not ever sure if it was read (or if my answers to the same questions before were read).

It makes me wonder if this person is searching for information or simply trying to trip me up.

[scutfargus]

now see i thought god made man in his own image or did i miss something.

If memory serves me correctly, the Hebrew word is shadow image. God is sovereign, we have volition; God is omniscience, we have our 5 senses; God is eternal, we have life; God is omnipresent, we have existance. It is a shadow image.

God making us in His shadow image is not the same as us making God in our image. Most of the time, we ignore His perfect righteousness and justice. We want God to allow for a few sins here or there so that we make that relative standard that we think He has. We want to get into heaven, but we don't want Hitler there; so, we think there is some kind of combination of good deeds to balance out our mistakes in order to get into heaven. However, that is not found in Scripture.

Interestingly enough, if you have thought this through, if Jesus died for our sins, what will be the basis for the indictment of the unbelievers at the last judgment? God is not going to punish unbelievers for the sins that Jesus paid for, right? And that would be correct. God will throw unbelievers into the Lake of Fire for their good works (Rev. 20:11-15).

Hey, even though we disagree and you get pretty pissy, I definitely prefer your opinions over the nonsense which we have seen in the past few pages.

[CiaranM]

however, ur snide comment that it beats thinking is fairly ludicrous

If I was too harsh in this remark, I apologize. Some of this stuff has already been covered. It leads me to believe that it was just cut and pasted and I am not ever sure if it was read (or if my answers to the same questions before were read).

It makes me wonder if this person is searching for information or simply trying to trip me up.

nah i don't think u were harsh at all and myself and craig have exchanged a lot worse than that in the past. anyway i'm sure if craig felt it was too harsh he'd have told u by himself already.

the point i was trying to make is that appeared to be having a dig at craig for "cutting and pasting" from a website. yet u repeatedly "cut and paste" from the bible. kind of the pot calling the kettle black. IMO.

[cs3602001]

And why again I should be interested in the words of a man?.

Scuts....

I have even less knowledge of Judaism that Christianity, so yes, I used a few words by Rabbi Simmons:

Rabbi Shraga Simmons spent his childhood trekking through snow in Buffalo, New York. He has worked in the fields of journalism and public relations, and received rabbinic ordination from the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem.

He serves as the Editor of Aish.com, and lives with his wife and children in the Modi'in region of Israel.

He seemed to explain the Jewish interpretation in a fairly easy to understand way.

In reading further I have foung more reference to Jewish belief, the idea not being to try to trip you up in anyway, but to see if you are willing to listen or accept anything from anyone other than yoursself.

Reading the collection of conversations and letters by Brother Lawrence has helped many (including myself) to cultivate thier sense of the presence of God, it helps see how simple things can be, whereas the bible can be and usually is completely confusing to most people who pick the thing up.

We can see how the bible is interpreted by both individuals and groups alike, however Scuts, you are unwilling to even acknowledge that there may be another interpetation that holds any kind of value.......

I feel quite sorry for you being so closed off from the world and its people......try to make some friends and listen to what they have to say, you really should be interested in the words of a man.

And why again I should be interested in the words of a man?.

[scutfargus]

So that you don't think I am interpreting the Bible in one way, here are Scriptures from the gospels, mostly spoken by Jesus, about how one is saved:

And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, ?My son, your sins are forgiven.? (Mark 2:5). And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you, go in peace." (Luke 7:50). When He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, observing His signs that He performed (John 2:23). Jesus said to him, "For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:10a,16?18). He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36).

The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." (John 4:25-26). "Truly truly I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24).

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these (scriptures) that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life." (John 5:39-40).

They said therefore to Him, "What shall we do that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (John 6:28-29).

Jesus said unto them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. For this is the will of My Father, that every one who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him on the last day." (John 6:35,40). "Truly truly I say to you , he who believes has eternal life." (John 6:47). Simon Peter answered Him, ?Lord, to whom will we go? You have the words of eternal life? (John 6:68). Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out saying, "If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rives of living water." (John 7:38-39).

"I said therefore to you, You shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins." (John 8:24).

And as He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him (John 8:30). Jesus...said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" He answered and said, "and who is He, Sir, that I may believe in Him?" Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." (John 9:35-37). "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." (John 10:9). And many believed in Him there (John 10:42).

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believe in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believe in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25-26).

And Jesus cried out and said, "I have come as light into the world that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44a,46). "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me." (John 14:1,6b).

[After the crucifixion and after the resurrection] Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here your finger, and see My hands; and reach here you hand, and put it into My side; and be not unbelieving, but believing." Thomas answers and said to Him, My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me have you believe? Happy are those who did not see and believed." (John 20:27-29). Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God; and that (by) believing you might have life in His name (John 20:30-31).

[scutfargus]

Earlier, I stated that I had been saved 30 years ago and I could not lose that salvation. And os that everyone is clear, yes, I can murder, rape, or do any sin that offends you and I cannot lose what God has given me (and before you become all concerned, I really don't have plans on committing any of those sins). Salvation is based upon what Christ has done and not what I have done.

Here are Scriptures to back this up:

Though he falls, he will not be utterly cast down (Psalm 37:24).

"But you do not believe because you are not My sheep. My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me; and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; and no one shall ****** them out of my hand." (John 10:26-29). "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished..." (John 17:12a). "Of those You have given me, I have not lost one." (John 17:9b).

There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angel, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created things shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 8:1,38-39).

Keep in mind that the Corinthians were famous for gross immorality as you read the next few verses: I thank my God always concerning you, for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, who shall also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (I Cor. 1:4,8). By His doing you are in Christ Jesus, whom became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption (I Cor. 1:30). The following is in reference to a Christian believer at Corinth who was living in incest with his mother: I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, in order that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (I Cor. 5:5). This is the sin unto death put on this believer, and still, he will be ultimately saved.

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation?having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit with reference to promise (Eph. 1:13).

If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us [reward]; if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself (I Tim. 2:12-13). Even if you lose your faith, you cannot lose your salvation; it is based upon what Jesus has done, not upon what you do.

I know that everything that God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and nothing to take from it (Eccles. 3:14a).

Our inheritance from God is eternal: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not decay, reserved in heaven for you who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (I Peter 1:3?5).

[cs3602001]

Oh Well....

I was hoping you may reply a little more objectively, but alas...more quotes.

So that you don't think I am interpreting the Bible

You seem to have gone off on a massive tangent "Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone"....

There is more to this topic than quoting scriptures on how to be granted salvation, it does not address the question is there a God.

I think giving personal experience rather than quotes from the bible is a much more interesting and real way to get things across.

This is why I found the words of Brother Lawrence useful, experience of others who have walked the path is invaluable as I know very little about anything in this world.

On the original topic of God, I think you have failed to convince anyone but yourself that presented "evidence" is sufficient to support the fact that their is a God.

I really do suggest, if it is possible for you to do so, that you open your mind and move away from the scriptures and look at the experience and ideas of others, it may just surprise you.

So that you don't think I am interpreting the Bible in one way, here are Scriptures from the gospels, mostly spoken by Jesus, about how one is saved:

And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, ?My son, your sins are forgiven.? (Mark 2:5). And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you, go in peace." (Luke 7:50). When He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, observing His signs that He performed (John 2:23). Jesus said to him, "For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:10a,16?18). He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36).

The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." (John 4:25-26). "Truly truly I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life." (John 5:24).

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these (scriptures) that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life." (John 5:39-40).

They said therefore to Him, "What shall we do that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (John 6:28-29).

Jesus said unto them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. For this is the will of My Father, that every one who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him on the last day." (John 6:35,40). "Truly truly I say to you , he who believes has eternal life." (John 6:47). Simon Peter answered Him, ?Lord, to whom will we go? You have the words of eternal life? (John 6:68). Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out saying, "If any man is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rives of living water." (John 7:38-39).

"I said therefore to you, You shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins." (John 8:24).

And as He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him (John 8:30). Jesus...said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" He answered and said, "and who is He, Sir, that I may believe in Him?" Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." (John 9:35-37). "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." (John 10:9). And many believed in Him there (John 10:42).

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believe in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believe in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25-26).

And Jesus cried out and said, "I have come as light into the world that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44a,46). "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Me." (John 14:1,6b).

[After the crucifixion and after the resurrection] Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here your finger, and see My hands; and reach here you hand, and put it into My side; and be not unbelieving, but believing." Thomas answers and said to Him, My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me have you believe? Happy are those who did not see and believed." (John 20:27-29). Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God; and that (by) believing you might have life in His name (John 20:30-31).

[SgtPepper]

He said, she sad,i he said that I said that you said he said that i had said what you said was............................

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,

It's easy if you try,

No hell below us,

Above us only sky,

Imagine all the people

living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,

It isnt hard to do,

Nothing to kill or die for,

No religion too,

Imagine all the people

living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,

I wonder if you can,

No need for greed or hunger,

A brotherhood of man,

Imagine all the people

Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,

but Im not the only one,

I hope some day you'll join us,

And the world will live as one.

[johnno]

"You may say Im a dreamer"

ok, you're a dreamer 8) :shock:

[SiamHotel]

"You may say Im a dreamer"

ok, you're a dreamer 8) :shock:

nah!... rather another 'next door' lon3r mate..

-- GO:D

[scutfargus]

Here ya go Scuts........Something the Jews would liek you to read:

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

incredibly these are part of the reason why fundamental christians support the existance and expansion of the state of israel. they believe there won't be the second coming until the third temple is built in israel and all jews convert to christianity.

hope they're not holding their breath while waiting ....

I am sure that is correct for some Christians. However, the Jews could build a hundred temples there and none of that would speed up the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (and if you read my post, Ezekiel's Temple will be built in the Millennium--after the Tribulation--meaning that we are not going to build Ezekiel's Temple in this era). Although for many, it seems like these are the end times, Christians have felt that way before. The Jews may be expelled from the land and they may return a few dozen times before the end time.

A firm part of Christian doctrine, based upon the Old Testament, is the continuance of Jews in this world and for them to be found throughout the world. That is all a part of the end times. The very existence of Jews in this world is part and parcel to Christian doctrine (except for those who are mixed up and believe in covenant theology). There are no Philistines in this world, or Moabites or Ammonites or Girgashites, etc., but there will always be Jews. This is why we find, on occasion, concerted efforts to try to remove the Jews from this earth--it is simply the function of Satan trying to prove Scripture wrong.

[SiamHotel]

:evil: :evil:

[SiamHotel]

8) 8)

[scutfargus]

i will freely admit to using google and yahoo to look up related articles on some of the forums i get involved in. common sense really and it does help to get a better picture of different aspects of the discussion. however, ur snide comment that it beats thinking is fairly ludicrous coming from someone who refuses to accept anything else as the truth except for ur interpretration of what the bible actually says and u continually post a stream of quotes from this book.

I probably did not make my case here, did I? Here is the point I was trying to make: I don't have a problem with anyone doing outside research. I know that toe-to-toe, from the top of someone else's head, they are not going to know the Bible as well as I do (and I acknowledge that I have great deficiencies in my knowledge).

However, I object to someone just cutting and pasting from a website if they simply did that to support what they already believe...that, no matter what I say, no matter how well I answer their objections, it really wouldn't make any difference to them anyway.

The results of this sort of approach has been one person cited Scripture which was not on point and did not apply (well, they didn't actually cite it; it came off the website). If this person had merely read the Scriptures they cited, they would have backed off on that point. But they were too lazy to do even that. That's research? That's self-serving rationalism and laziness.

Someone else brought up the Coniah curse. Now, who on earth knows anything about the Coniah curse, including the person who brought it up? I could have just about made up an answer. How should I explain? I doubt that this person first read about the Coniah curse, then formed his opinion, and then quoted it to me. The opinion had already been formed, citing the Coniah curse was simply rationalizing their belief; and it was an argument I doubt that they had any emotional investment in (unlike your arguments, for instance). Maybe I am wrong with this person, but that was the impression that I got.

I personally did a lot of research before coming to my opinions. I read every bit of literature I could get my hands on. I have several books which are opposed to the positions which I hold, many of which I purchased before I took this or that position.

Is there anyone here with the internal fortitude to admit to being wrong about anything?

[scutfargus]

We can see how the bible is interpreted by both individuals and groups alike, however Scuts, you are unwilling to even acknowledge that there may be another interpetation that holds any kind of value.......

I feel quite sorry for you being so closed off from the world and its people......try to make some friends and listen to what they have to say, you really should be interested in the words of a man.

When I first became a Christian, I began reading all kinds of literature, including cultic literature, and studied a great many viewpoints. I don't mean to disparage the work of anyone, as what I have learned is, in part, based on the work of hundreds, if not thousands of men.

However, my approach to the Bible has been this--I attempt to determine the simplest and most fundamental truths of Scripture. Of course, this would be Jesus Christ. Then I had to look at what He said about Himself and about what others said about Him. And, of course, does this have anything to do with the Old Testament.

It became clear after awhile that the blood sacrifice of one who is pure starts in the book of Genesis and runs all the way through the book of Revelation. Then I had to determine what that meant. Essentially, it was a systematic approach to theology (which had been done before...I just did not know that).

The meaning of Jesus death on the cross became very clear. Not only did He predict it, but He would not be kept from it. And I made very sure of how one is saved. So, I consciously believed in Jesus Christ on several occasions after I originally did, just to make sure it took. None of these additional times were necessary, but I did not want to take any chances.

Now, to get to that point, God had to beat me down a bit. I was every bit as hard-headed as anyone I have read here, and had no interest in Jesus or the Bible or any of that stuff. However, when I had to deal with some difficult matters, I was also forced to view the claims of Jesus with more of an open mind, you might say.

Now, I have studied Judaism and I've taken a couple of courses in Jewish history. I had a couple of great Rabbi teachers; but, as you no doubt know, Rabbis now differ on hundreds of fundamental positions. Christians differ on many positions, but first and foremost is Jesus Christ. And, for those who understand it accurately, He is our only mediator between God and us. Christian denominations go off on a lot of different directions, many of them screwed up, but the fundamentals of faith alone in Christ alone can be found in most of them.

Now, here is one of my problems with the cutting and pasting. The arguments offered were simply arguments against what I have said presented without thought. If the Prophet that Moses spoke of (and Who is found mentioned throughout the Old Testament) could not have come after 400 BC, then who was he? What happened to the great Messiah tradition? Jews clearly understood that the Messiah would come for hundreds of years, if not 1000's and many believe that today. So, this argument against Jesus any possible Messiah. It is an argument which contradicts Jewish theology (if such a thing actually exists) offered up only as an argument against Jesus. I know I am not expressing myself very well here...it's an argument offered up in such a way that, even if it stabs you in the foot, it is against Jesus, so it's okay. It's intellectually dishonest. I have a problem with that.

[scutfargus]

Oh Well....

I was hoping you may reply a little more objectively, but alas...more quotes.

So that you don't think I am interpreting the Bible

You seem to have gone off on a massive tangent "Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone"....

I gathered these this morning (and some on an earlier occasion) and put them in because I have been accused on several occassions of offering up my interpretation of Scripture. So, since I have stated over and over again that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone, I have also offered up the Scripture to back that up, and with little, if any commentary.

Usually, when one is accused of just offering their version of Scripture, it is because they quote one or two verses--proof texts, if you will. For something as fundamental as eternal life through faith in Christ, I can quote pages and pages of Scripture. One can go to almost any translation of the Bible and it will be quite clear that salvation is from faith alone in Christ alone.

Now, someone can still accuse me of just giving my interpretation, but if you read the verses I offered, you can see I offered no interpretation and I offered an abundance of evidence for what I believe.

[scutfargus]

Oh Well....

I was hoping you may reply a little more objectively, but alas...more quotes.

I think giving personal experience rather than quotes from the bible is a much more interesting and real way to get things across.

This is why I found the words of Brother Lawrence useful, experience of others who have walked the path is invaluable as I know very little about anything in this world.

On the original topic of God, I think you have failed to convince anyone but yourself that presented "evidence" is sufficient to support the fact that their is a God.

I really do suggest, if it is possible for you to do so, that you open your mind and move away from the scriptures and look at the experience and ideas of others, it may just surprise you.

Let me point out the glaring fallacy here: you want me to be objective and yet you want me to examine the experiences of others. Could you find something less objective than someone's experience? I am up at all hours of the night, and on nighttime radio here, I listen to people describe their experiences on spaceships which have taken them away from time to time. So, I tend to pay little attention to the personal experiences of others.

Now, I will grant you, personal experiences can be quite entertaining and interesting. I will concede that point to you.

I am one of the few people here (maybe the only person here?) who believes in objective truth--that is, something is real or right or wrong or not real, not depending upon how we feel or depending upon our experiences, but because that thing is real, or right or wrong or not real. Quite obviously, I go the the Bible when it comes to objective truth. This is not a position I just chose to take nor is this something I had indoctrinated into me from a young age (quite the opposite, in fact).

Speaking of which, I have made this offer to others, and I don't recall if I made it to you; but if you ever want to examine some evidence objectively, I'll personally send you Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict." If a person reads that book with an open mind, it is hard to walk away unchanged. It is not a book about personal experience (well, a portion is, I think), but about objective evidence. Send me a private email and I'll arrange to send it to you, wherever you happen to be. I've heard the term in this thread "blind faith" over and over; but it isn't blind by any means. I think "blind unbelief" is more accurate.

[scutfargus]

And as I twice pointed out you never answered my further points on Mary's geanology according to Luke. You ducked and covered like always.

I dealt with it already. The genealogy to Mary is in the book of Luke, and she is the real mother of Jesus. This genealogy bypasses the the curse of Coniah.

The genealogy of Joseph (the legal, but not real father of Jesus) is in the book of Matthew. This is the line of Coniah, and it is cut off before reaching Jesus.

You have actually looked at the lines, right? You see that they are different once they come to Joseph? That means, one is his, the other is Mary's.

What did I miss? This is the third time I have responded to this question, if memory serves. Andlet's say, I actually convince you of this...what real difference will that make to you?

[James_Malaysia]

so! i have no idea on it. but, is like wat u say................................

BELIEVE IT OR NOT.

Actually

is up to U.

[WiCKeDBiRD]

Oh well... as long as eternity....

Me is obviously on the opposite side though.... MMmmm 8) :wink:

Dont you blame me.... who could resist -Prada- .... 8) :wink:

[CiaranM]

Earlier, I stated that I had been saved 30 years ago and I could not lose that salvation. And os that everyone is clear, yes, I can murder, rape, or do any sin that offends you and I cannot lose what God has given me (and before you become all concerned, I really don't have plans on committing any of those sins). Salvation is based upon what Christ has done and not what I have done.

now this i find incredibly hard to believe. surely we are all accountable for our actions and deeds come judgement day.