Terrorism

[Angel_Master]

TERRRRRORISTA PROFILING

I respond to this journal.

It is true that this group has been responsible for a lot of terrorism. They have also been blamed for terrorism that they were not responsible for. I wonder who would be responsible for most terrorism if the tables were turned and it was those who are now responsible for so much terrorism that had most of the economic and military power in the world, and were taking even more for themselves and brushing aside others in their own greed.

It is very wrong and as bigoted a statement as possible to identify terrorists as Muslim. It just so happens that many of those who have been driven to terrorism are Muslim. People from Northern Ireland committed many terrorist acts as well when pushed to that. It is interesting that no one has called the guy who posted this journal a bigot. Oh, right the media uses this phrase everyday, so it must be okay.

Terrorism is just another form of warfare, a form of warfare that makes it possible for those with very limited means to hurt a foe that would crush them like a bug in any kind of more conventional warfare. Like anyone who goes to war they have real rational reasons for doing so. As long as those reasons exist and they see war as the solution there will be terrorism. I think it is time those who like to write off other human beings as nothing more than terrorists got down off their high horses and faced the issues and legitimate complaints that are fuelling it.

Let me ask, how did the allied forces really beat the Germans in the Second World War, or at least what was a big part of that victory? They bombed city after city full of civilians with the objective of incurring as many civilian casualties as possible, so as to demoralise the population and cripple production. It was very effective. That is what war is. Terrorism is no more wrong that other types of warfare.

Maybe it is seen as so extremely more wrong than war largely because it is seen as an offensive act. But many political, legal and economic moves are also every bit as much offensive acts that can affect the lives of millions of every day people just as deeply in the long run. I think that much if not all terrorism is in fact defensive.

Start dealing with the cause and there is no need to be searching or suspecting anyone.

[Pingusuperstar]

Simmo, how can you possibly define Angel_Master a terrorist sympathiser? His analysis condemns terrorism, in my opinion. Just because he's not for all-out-war and he doesn't like to generalise (like you surely do), does he have to be called a terrorist sympathiser? Sorry, Simmo, let me disagree. Give us your own analysis, possibly adding some logics to your conclusions, and we can talk about it.

Solving a problem means understanding its roots, not just destroying its surface. It will grow stronger.

But then again, in Australia Egyptians, Lebanese or Italians... we're all wogs anyway, right? So I guess you consider me a terrorist sympathiser too.

[Pingusuperstar]

I had tried to check that page before, but it doesn't work. Conspiracy theories and alternative history are mostly a heap of crap, but they make people think... there are two or more sides to every story and we need to confront criticism in all disciplines, history included. I am truly sorry about the 9/11 victims' and their families, believe me, that's why I think shedding more blood is a bad idea, and it just promotes more terrorist acts. I am thinking about the angered kids who see their families and friends die in Iraq or in Lebanon. I also think about the Jewish families of the soldiers who have been killed or kidnapped. All these actions bring more and more hatred to people's hearts.

About you being a racist: I don't know you and I don't really think you're a racist, but you can't imagine how many times I've been looked down on just because I'm Italian. Including here on TF. That's annoying, you know? Nevertheless, I am happy to say "sorry", since you declared you're not racist and you don't call Italians and Mediterraneans wogs, or Serbs itches etc.

So I guess this means you do NOT think that muslim=terrorist, right?

[MikeAussieGuy]

About you being a racist: I don't know you and I don't really think you're a racist, but you can't imagine how many times I've been looked down on just because I'm Italian. Including here on TF. That's annoying, you know? Nevertheless, I am happy to say "sorry", since you declared you're not racist and you don't call Italians and Mediterraneans wogs, or Serbs itches etc.

So I guess this means you do NOT think that muslim=terrorist, right?

I'm not interested in posting a reply to this topic subject but what I will post is my dismay that you say because you are Italian people in TF look down at you.

I dont know you and I dont know what your tryintg to prove but this statement is utter and total BS. In fact I'll go so far to say you have some sort of inferiority complex to say such a thing, but whatever your problem is dont go saying this sort of crap about TF people because it is not true, and you owe an apology to the people of TF for saying it.

Some of the most popular guys in TF are Italian, in fact if you do some research into the Top 50 you will find a lot of my Italian friends there. Last Friday night was a night for Claudio and Frank from Italy, it had one of the biggest turnouts of all TF events, there are nearly 400 italians in TF, what else do you want to hear to discredit your statement.

I am Australian, born from Maltese ancestors, so dont pull that crap you did with Simon on me, NEVER EVER have I seen people denegrate Italians, or anyone from the the Mediteranean for that matter. Sure you get the occassional person having a dig at Middle Eastern people, but even that is rare.

I suggest you choose your words more carefully in future.

I wont be on TF much for a few weeks so if you have a response to my post then I suggest you PM it to me fessi.

[Pingusuperstar]

Should I say it never happened when in fact it happened? I have have no inferiority complex, neither do I have superiority complex. I don't think Italians are worse or better than anyone else, and guess what? I love Australians. What's the matter? I don't get the point of your message at all. And, whereas I already offered my apology to Simmo, I am certainly not offering any to the people who used derogatory terms to describe people from my country or any other country in the world. And "TF people"? what is it? A new sect? To me every one is an individual, there is no such thing as TF people, gimme a break.

[Pingusuperstar]

By the way: the topic here is TERRORISM anyway, not RACISM.

[CiaranM]

I'm not interested in posting a reply to this topic subject but what I will post is my dismay that you say because you are Italian people in TF look down at you.

I dont know you and I dont know what your tryintg to prove but this statement is utter and total BS. In fact I'll go so far to say you have some sort of inferiority complex to say such a thing, but whatever your problem is dont go saying this sort of crap about TF people because it is not true, and you owe an apology to the people of TF for saying it.

Mike how do u know it's not true ?? How do u know what kind of msgs this member may have received in the past. i have seen journals posted on TF which if i had been french or italian i would have found offensive.

and there have been several diabolical postings tarring ALL muslims as terrorist, which is blatant bullshit !!

most of the ppl on TF r decent and friendly, but we do get our fair share of bigoted racist dickheads also !!! it's not always sweetness and light on here !!

[CiaranM]

back on topic ... it's amazing how 1 man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

let's not forget that Mandela was one of the main men in the ANC and refused to renounce the use of violence while in prison. in fact the ANC adopted most of their strategy from the IRA who recieved most of their funds from bank robberies and the rest from the USA.

now Mandela is probably the most respected figure in the world and Adams is a member of the British Parliment !!

[Pingusuperstar]

good one Ciaran, and let me add: Arafat's OLP lived mainly off donations given by European citizens or companies. In Italy for example, Feltrinelli (one of the country's main publishing houses) did that for decades. That money went to OLP to fight against Israel, a state which was practically founded by Europe, in cooperation with US and UN after WWII.

It's all about points of view, but if we don't try to understand what's behind the surface I don't think things are ever going to work.

[MikeAussieGuy]

Mate my point is he is saying because he is Italian he is looked down on in TF, thats what I am referring to. Thats a lot different to having fun and/or shots at someone because they are from whatever country. Check out the Aussie and Kiwi digs, and I'm right in the middle of them, great fun.

And sure you get sarcastic digs at the French and so forth and yes your right about some idiots tarring all Muslims as terrorists, but check out who have made these diabolical postings, certainly not the thinking of mainstream TF. Out of 30,000 people your always going to get such people, but to generalise that looking down on Italians is indicative of TF generally is BS. That is my point to him.

Well thats it from me for a few days, I'm out of here.

Mike how do u know it's not true ?? How do u know what kind of msgs this member may have received in the past. i have seen journals posted on TF which if i had been french or italian i would have found offensive.

and there have been several diabolical postings tarring ALL muslims as terrorist, which is blatant bullshit !!

most of the ppl on TF r decent and friendly, but we do get our fair share of bigoted racist dickheads also !!! it's not always sweetness and light on here !!

[Pingusuperstar]

Did I ever say that the average TFer looks down on Italians or on anyone else? No way. Read again please. I often got looked down on for being Italian, INCLUDING on TF. Means that among the several times, it also happened here. But I know very well that those couple of people represent a ridiculously small percentage. And I already said sorry to your friend Simon. What more do you request? Public self-humiliation? Don't you think you're making a big deal out of nothing, on a forum that has nothing to do with this topic, and that maybe not even Simmo is that mad about it (if you are, Simmo, your complaints are more than welcome)?

[Loburt]

Arafat's OLP lived mainly off donations given by European citizens or companies.

And they lived quite well too. Too bad more of that money didn't go the help the Palestinian people.

[mr_satori]

actually guys this is a responce to my journal,,,,and i take your point,,as for me being a bigot ,,i dont think so,,,,,by the way,,the IRA bombed themselves to a negotiating table,,,,these other exctremists have no intention of ,,sitting down and talking to anybody,,,,,,,,,,,,,,by the way you allways put your views across very well,,but you have got me wrong ,,bigot i dont think so

[Loburt]

Terrorism is just another form of warfare..

Genocide is just another form of warfare too. Does that make it right?

Let me ask, how did the allied forces really beat the Germans in the Second World War, or at least what was a big part of that victory? They bombed city after city full of civilians with the objective of incurring as many civilian casualties as possible, so as to demoralise the population and cripple production. It was very effective. That is what war is. Terrorism is no more wrong that other types of warfare.

I seem to remember the Nazis bombing London with the objective of killing as many civilians as possible and demoralizing the population well before the Allies responded with similar tactics a few years later. I seem to remember the Japanese doing the same to China, and much worse, before the bombs were unleashed on them.

In the end, killing German civilians by bombing their cities had almostno role in ending the war. The German citizens didn't rise up and demand peace so they would stop getting bombed. The Germans lost because their army was beaten, collapsing and couldn't stop the Allied forces from overruning their country.

[robbie36]

Terrorism is modern warfare - pure a simple.

The days of large armies facing one another on the battlefield are gone.

Small numbers of armed personnel can wreak havoc - both physical and psychological - on their perceived enemy. The protaganists grievancies are aired across all mass media and terrorists are difficult to eliminate without substantial collateral damage.

We might as well get used to it....

[Loburt]

Start dealing with the cause and there is no need to be searching or suspecting anyone.

So if we're all well-behaved in our nice developed countries everyone else will be good too? The only source of evil and aggression is from the richer developed countries?

Then how do you explain Darfur?

So, if al Qaeda's goal is the overthrow of all governments from the north of Africa to the Malay peninsual and the re-establisment of the Caliphate and the imposition of an ultra-conservative brand of Islam over everyone in that region, we should just say okay?

Even if the majority of the people in that region don't want that?

As I recall, al-Qaeda's original motivation was the expulsion of US troops and all non-Muslims from the Arabian peninsula, or the Holy Lands.

That's a legitimate complaint?

Should we then also expel all Muslims from our Western countries? And if they don't want to go, should we then deliberately target some women and children for death by bombing in Riyadh or Jeddah?

[bangkocksoon]

Terrorism has become whatever the Government in Power defines it to be. George Washington and friends were terrorists according to King George, and used many of the tactics still used today in Iraq (with different weapons).

The problem I have with Muslims is that after 9/11 no one has stood up and said "Bin Laden (or other whackos) does not speak for all Muslims".

The problem I have with American Christians is that no one has stood up and said "George Bush (or other whackos) does not speak for American Christians".

The problem I have with Israelis and Iranians and Lebanese is the same.

A relatively few people in power are taking our world down an ugly path, and I am not sure we can pull back from it. The only way out may be through.

[Angel_Master]

Terrorism is just another form of warfare..

Genocide is just another form of warfare too. Does that make it right?

Let me ask, how did the allied forces really beat the Germans in the Second World War, or at least what was a big part of that victory? They bombed city after city full of civilians with the objective of incurring as many civilian casualties as possible, so as to demoralise the population and cripple production. It was very effective. That is what war is. Terrorism is no more wrong that other types of warfare.

I seem to remember the Nazis bombing London with the objective of killing as many civilians as possible and demoralizing the population well before the Allies responded with similar tactics a few years later. I seem to remember the Japanese doing the same to China, and much worse, before the bombs were unleashed on them.

In the end, killing German civilians by bombing their cities had almostno role in ending the war. The German citizens didn't rise up and demand peace so they would stop getting bombed. The Germans lost because their army was beaten, collapsing and couldn't stop the Allied forces from overruning their country.

I didn't say it made it right.

No, the German citizens didn't rise up and demand peace. Hundreds of factories were destroyed and the remaining work force rendered largely unproductive. The point is that in war millitary forces will resort to atrocious means, usually whatever means necessary to achieve their objectives.

[funnyman]

Terrorism is just another form of warfare..

Genocide is just another form of warfare too. Does that make it right?

Let me ask, how did the allied forces really beat the Germans in the Second World War, or at least what was a big part of that victory? They bombed city after city full of civilians with the objective of incurring as many civilian casualties as possible, so as to demoralise the population and cripple production. It was very effective. That is what war is. Terrorism is no more wrong that other types of warfare.

I seem to remember the Nazis bombing London with the objective of killing as many civilians as possible and demoralizing the population well before the Allies responded with similar tactics a few years later. I seem to remember the Japanese doing the same to China, and much worse, before the bombs were unleashed on them.

In the end, killing German civilians by bombing their cities had almostno role in ending the war. The German citizens didn't rise up and demand peace so they would stop getting bombed. The Germans lost because their army was beaten, collapsing and couldn't stop the Allied forces from overruning their country.

The Nazis were beaten because they were fighting too many fronts and had too many against them. But most of all any fool knows YOU NEVER EVER INVADE RUSSIA! Basically ww2 was between the Soviet Union and The Nazis with a side show going on with the amercians and british. neither one of whom would ever have been able to defeat germany were it not for the soviet union. The Soviet Union won ww2 with the USA and the UK providing excellent. Had the USA or IK had to face the bulk of the german war machine they would have been taken apart. The germans had the best army and fighting forces in the world and nobody could have beaten them alone. after pearlharbour the usa was a giant awakened and grew to be a huge miltary power within a very short period.

As for this nonsense about the allies only bombing after the germans started it? thats rubbish, chilidish and irrelevant to the point made about the killing of civilians and ciities. Had the allies lost they could easily have been done for war crimes and would have no better defense than the germans. grave wrongs were done on all sides. Apparently an exhibtion to commemorate the deat of millions of german refugees and their plight when leaving the east as they were losing [ethinic cleansng in reverse] caused a rift between the policish and german govenment which is a joke. ppl forget that regardless of who strated the war the german ppl suffered the most in the end. their country was utterly destroyed and along with the soviets they paid by far the biggest sacrifices. more credit to them that they have atoned for their own misdeeds and have gone on to be a fantastic modern nation.

all wars bring out the worst which is not to say we shouldnt condemm it and the wrongs done. the thing is that everyones loses in war

[sunsnow]

***TOTALLY OFF TOPIC, NOT MEANING TO GO ANY MORE FURHTER INTO WWII DISCUSSION****

ppl forget that regardless of who strated the war the german ppl suffered the most in the end. their country was utterly destroyed and along with the soviets they paid by far the biggest sacrifices. more credit to them that they have atoned for their own misdeeds and have gone on to be a fantastic modern nation.

Interesting posting by funnyman. I like how you bring up the subject of "hushush", something that has most of the times NEVER mentioned aloud: that German civilians suffered in the end the most from the WW2 right there with the Soviets and Polish...(thinkin' about the huge numbers of lost lives and total annihilation of cities) Regarless of that their leaders started it all...MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR. Peace out. :?

------------------

Back to topic:

Nice to read "cool down" postings to this kind of heated and emotionally loaded subject. I am amazed to read how someone has even experienced personally so much terror too (those three events.) :-S

But as someone here made a good point, the difference between some terrorists attacks mentioned in the journal is to for example IRA (not condoning it at all) that these people are not putting out any warnings, any demands, as was said: there is no negotiation table anywhere! So, what the heck is happening, what is the object of all this! "Old fashioned" terrorists groups: they atleast have quite clear agendas, they have leaders to negotiate (or not negitiate) with etc...What is hoped to happen to put the whole world scared? Why?

I don't consider as the "modern warfare". There has always been freedom fighters and terorists, and guerilla warfare. And considering the fact that this kind of terrorist warfare does not seem to have any kind of common agenda...:-(

[eagle]

Arafat's OLP lived mainly off donations given by European citizens or companies.

And they lived quite well too. Too bad more of that money didn't go the help the Palestinian people.

thats a majot problem everywhere , egos ripping off the money to live like kings :roll:

[Loburt]

ppl forget that regardless of who strated the war the german ppl suffered the most in the end.

If you want to talk about childish rubbish we can talk about the above statement.

The Germans killed 6 million plus Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Catholics, political dissidents and assorted others by putting them in concnetration camps, gassing them and throwing them into ovens. This includes women ad children.They attempted to exterminate entire races.

I think those were the people, thier victims, who suffered most in the end.

[robbie36]

Terrorists are cowardly criminals.

These people (suicide bombers or 9/11 bombers) were certainly not cowards. On the contrary, they had minds braced with an insane courage, and it would pay us well to understand where that courage came from....

(P.S. It came from religion....)

[i_love_som_tam]

It is true that this group has been responsible for a lot of terrorism. They have also been blamed for terrorism that they were not responsible for.

Which acts of terrorism have they been falsely accused of? I know that Arabs were suspect initially in the Kansas City bombing, as law enforcement officials good not believe that another American would do this. That changed with the arrest of Timothy McViegh shortly after the bombing. What other incidents can you cite? I would be interested in hearing them.

It is very wrong and as bigoted a statement as possible to identify terrorists as Muslim. It just so happens that many of those who have been driven to terrorism are Muslim.

What should we call a Muslim? A Muslim is a Muslim. Would you prefer Arab? That wouldn't work because the Muslims involved in the Bali bombings in 2002 and 2006 are not Arabs. Neither are the Chechnians and Georgians that are committing bombings in Russian. The Pakistani-British terrorists allegedly involved in the recent plan to blow planes out of the skies are not Arabs either, they are Muslims.

What drives the Muslims to terrorism? Do you have that answer? If you have really studied up on this you will see that the Muslims involved in terrorism have a warped interpretation of the Koran. They see any non-Muslims and non-believers and should die for their own Christian beliefs. The moderate Muslims of the world have a much better interpretation of the Koran, which they believe preaches peace.

People from Northern Ireland committed many terrorist acts as well when pushed to that.

Yes, and the IRA has been labeled a terrorist organization.

It is interesting that no one has called the guy who posted this journal a bigot.

Why is he bigoted? Is anything that he posted in his journal not true? Bigotry is defined as hatred or intolearance towards a racial or ethnic group. The journal post did not display this attitude, only facts.

Oh, right the media uses this phrase everyday, so it must be okay.

What phrase is that?

Terrorism is just another form of warfare, a form of warfare that makes it possible for those with very limited means to hurt a foe that would crush them like a bug in any kind of more conventional warfare.

Warfare? Why are the Muslim terrorists in Indonesia at war with the international tourists in Bali? What have any of them done to the Indonesian community that would cause them to kill over 200 innocent people in two senseless bombings?

What did the crew and passengers of the Achille Lauro do? What did the crew and passengers of countless hijacked and destroyed aircraft do? What did the innocent victims in the World Trade Center and the Pentagon do? These countries that suffered through these acts of terrorism were not at war.

Like anyone who goes to war they have real rational reasons for doing so. As long as those reasons exist and they see war as the solution there will be terrorism.

Explain the reasons that they choose to kill and maim innocent people. Explain their rationale please. I can understand the acts that are happening in Iraq because there is a war here, but can you explain what their justification was before the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

I think it is time those who like to write off other human beings as nothing more than terrorists got down off their high horses and faced the issues and legitimate complaints that are fuelling it.

Exactly what are their complaints? Do you have answers or are you just trying to wind people up?

Let me ask, how did the allied forces really beat the Germans in the Second World War, or at least what was a big part of that victory? They bombed city after city full of civilians with the objective of incurring as many civilian casualties as possible, so as to demoralise the population and cripple production.

Yes, and so did Germany with the bombing campaigns against Britain and Russia. So did the Japanese in China. So who is right? The two countries that brought the world in the second world war?

Terrorism is no more wrong that other types of warfare.

Live through an unprovoked terrorist attack. Have family or friends killed in a senseless bombing. See first hand that carnage that is created by one of these acts. Will YOU still SUPPORT terrorism?

Start dealing with the cause and there is no need to be searching or suspecting anyone

Again, I ask you, what is the cause. You have put so much conjecture in here but have not provided what the causes for this problem are. I think that you have been in Saudi too long and have gone native.

[i_love_som_tam]

Terrorists are cowardly criminals.

These people (suicide bombers or 9/11 bombers) were certainly not cowards. On the contrary, they had minds braced with an insane courage, and it would pay us well to understand where that courage came from....

(P.S. It came from religion....)

It's called "fanaticism"