Visa discussion

[CMG_UK]

Work permits are, I believe, rationed, at least in language schools. There are only so many that the Govt will issue to a school and it is based on size of school, number of classrooms or something like that. My work permit says i work in a place that I have only set foot in about 3 times. There is a lot of juggling around, but as it stands, there are people who are perfectly qualified to get a wp who can't get one because their employer's entitlement is used up.

I was talking about this whole saga to an EVP in a large Thai bank this afternoon, and his opinion was that the whole issue will be temporary and will change again after a while.

Knee-jerk and then more considered counter-reaction. Things may never be the same again, but they won't be very different.

[GoldMember]

. I would venture that there are less native English speaking teachers in Malaysia/Singapore... where English is well spoken by a majority of the population.

And i would venture that's due to their traditionally strong colonial/commonwealth and educational links with the UK .For sure they have far less need of native English speaking teachers.In fact i'm not even sure they have any need.

[DocDre]

Wow, this is maybe the best thread I've seen here, (obviosly affecting many) and the speculations and educated conjecture is most constuctive. With elections around the corner and the "new" airport (wasn't this supposed to happen years ago?) This might be a pre curser to an entry fee (Cambodia has been nailing everyone for around $50 American for entry and exit) to maybe something similar in Thailand?

I've been waiting for Thailand to catch on to this, when cooler heads prevail (people with $' in mind in gov) I think we might see an entry/exit fee here, no complaints if so.

As far as Mafia, Russian for sure in Pattaya, but they aren't autonimous, there is colusion at high levels.(and low levels)...............................

The powers that be and don't be (bad grammar, too lazy) stand too much to loose, I think this is a smoke screen for cash making legislation, I can't forsee the implimentation of this in the near future when they can't even decide who is REALLY running the show.

Sorry I have nothing constuctive to add but I will certainly call my Canadian embassy, and hope all of other nationalities do the same to confirn/deny the proposed BS.

It would be great if through this thread we could get definitive info from different embassies.

Thanks all for the info, I don't wan't to incorporate until it is tax feasable (work visa) if this makes sense to any and all in my possition.

Cheers to those in the know for their concern and time!

[GoldMember]

This might be a pre curser to an entry fee (Cambodia has been nailing everyone for around $50 American for entry and exit) to maybe something similar in Thailand?

Indonesia did exactly that.Reverted from a long standing generous 60 day visa free stay for EEC/North American citizens ......to a $25 VOA.Presumably to help pay for the hotels blown up by the Moroccans who are still permitted visa free entry.

[sunsnow]

Take the guy who works on something legit. Well he is contributing to the country, isn't he? And doesn't he spend is every satang here? So what's bad with that? Not to mention the guys who work on the net, make all of their income overseas ans spend it here?

Ahem, have you heard that also in Thailand people and business are supposed to pay taxes.:-) All of people working "online" or having online companies, they are not employing thais, they are not paying Taxes. See the problem from Thailands perspective?

OFCOURSE there are those who are teleworking back to their own countries (working for someone else or have their own legit business back in Finland for example and pay corporate taxes here etc....If this is what you were referring, but many are thinkin' these one man illegal businesses when they are talking about online business in Thailand) or some third country but I think it is safe to assume they are atleast paying their taxes to those countries.

[sunsnow]

I know a couple of farangs who work for my company, who have only tourist visas and they make about 60-70k a month, has comfortable life and don't have to pay tax. I mean it doens't mean much to me whether who pays tax and who doesn't but then isn't it a form of taking advantage from this country and from the people who have to go through all the process to stay here legally?

breakofdawning says it all.

i think anyone who has not got a chance to read ... do read it now.

as a thai person, i love & support her perspective.

Venus: Where is this breakofdawning's comment? As she pointed out and some others here, illegal workers are getting scot free from paying taxes and that is wrong. BUT what caught my eye here is that "break" has foreigners working in the same company, making that much money...And I wonder only: why the COMPANY IS NOT GETTING THEM WORK VISAS?? See, maybe the foreigners would be on legal visas and pay taxes if their company got them those things? Isn't this one of the problems too: you have legal companies, legal schools, and workers who would not mind paying taxes (yeah yeah, you know what i mean, no one likes paying taxes but this is just to show the contrary to purposedly illegal workers) but for some reason the companies and schools are not getting them visas? I'd like to ask breakofdawning more about this situation in her company...

[marky12345]

Some people are refering to this as being a short term populist policy aimed at keeping the voter happy with the upcoming election.

So does this mean the electorate has had enough of Farangs?

[frankenburner2]

"Who's ever heard of a farang mafia in Thailand?"

I've heard the Canadian maffia owns much of sukhumvit.

There's a guy over here always swaying a big gun trying to get free mustard at every restaurant he goes!

M U S A T A R D !

[frankenburner2]

I know a couple of farangs who work for my company, who have only tourist visas and they make about 60-70k a month, has comfortable life and don't have to pay tax. I mean it doens't mean much to me whether who pays tax and who doesn't but then isn't it a form of taking advantage from this country and from the people who have to go through all the process to stay here legally?

breakofdawning says it all.

i think anyone who has not got a chance to read ... do read it now.

as a thai person, i love & support her perspective.

Venus: Where is this breakofdawning's comment? As she pointed out and some others here, illegal workers are getting scot free from paying taxes and that is wrong. BUT what caught my eye here is that "break" has foreigners working in the same company, making that much money...And I wonder only: why the COMPANY IS NOT GETTING THEM WORK VISAS?? See, maybe the foreigners would be on legal visas and pay taxes if their company got them those things? Isn't this one of the problems too: you have legal companies, legal schools, and workers who would not mind paying taxes (yeah yeah, you know what i mean, no one likes paying taxes but this is just to show the contrary to purposedly illegal workers) but for some reason the companies and schools are not getting them visas? I'd like to ask breakofdawning more about this situation in her company...

to add to that.....exactly!....there are many people working in, lets say, the education field that would be very very very happy to pay their taxes and get the proper work visa.....problem is...getting a work visa has so many restrictions and requirements, and costs alot...it makes it very difficult for thai employers to do so....the only emlpoyers who DO offer work visas offer very low salaries.....thus...the previously accepted practice of doing a border run was simply more economical for all and simply...easier....I wish they would revamp the work permit requirements as well.....making jobs requiring a "native speakers" less restricted.....THIS would solve alot of the problems for all......no need for border runs, everybody pays taxes.......everybody's happy?

[frankenburner2]

******* hell! I could make alot money teaching telephone skills to those dumb ******* twats at the immigration office! I must have spoken to 20 different people today...not one of them would now how to shut and listen if their lives depended on it!!! **** **** **** !

rant over

the lady I spoke with yesterday, K. Kitiya (sp?) who was going to look into things for me...gave me a number to call back...supposedly the phone on her desk...she hasn't answered it yet! and no-one else seems to know who the **** she is...

Jim....my triple entry tourist visa guy in Penang has spoken with his contacts at the thai consulate there...thinks all will be fine....he will confirm later today...fingers crossed as i have already bought my plane ticket!

[zeusbheld]

Jim....my triple entry tourist visa guy in Penang has spoken with his contacts at the thai consulate there...thinks all will be fine....he will confirm later today...fingers crossed as i have already bought my plane ticket!

a few months ago penang "stopped" issuing multi-entry visas. the consulate claimed that they'd stopped and it was permanent--and it resumed as soon as the regular consul returned. visas are a discretionary thing.

most likely there will be no 'ripple effect' through other visas and most likely, the gossip is spot on that it only affects border-bus-run "tourists". as many have pointed out it is election time, election-inspired 'reforms' tend to be superficial (a worldwide phenomenon).

for actual tourists on a monthly stamp there *is* an upside---you don't have to leave the country to get your stamp.

[ajc1970]

i'd love to see the text of the new rules, to see exactly how they

intend to enforce this. the concept is easy to understand, but the

language wouldn't be easy to contrive without either having serious

non-intended consequences or making the new rules meaningless.

how long do you need to leave thailand after your first 30-day visit

before you're issue a new VOA (so that the clock re-starts for you)

vs. being issued a "renewal" for the existing VOA?

are they saying if you re-enter on the same day, that's just an

extension of your previous 30-day visa? ok, fine, people will just do

over-nights in cambodia for their visa runs... now thailand is just

forcing them to make longer visa runs and spend more outside of

thailand, but it hasn't stopped them from living and working in

thailand on tourist visas.

but if they extend the "must-go" period too long, they'll basically be

preventing many legit tourists who come here 4 or 5 times/year from

overseas...

hmm... maybe i'm not being clear... an example:

jan 1-30 thailand. jan 30: visa run, 2 hours in cambodia.

jan 30-march 2: thailand. march 2: visa run, 2 hours in cambodia.

march 2- april 1: thailand.

april 1: can't return from this visa run for 90 days. no more thailand.

that's obvious. so what's this visa-runners obvious solution?

jan 1-30 thailand. jan 30: visa run, 2 hours in cambodia.

jan 30-march 2 thailand. march 2: visa run, overnight in cambodia.

march 3: new VOA in thailand. clock starts over.

march 3-april 2: thailand. april 2: visa run, 2 hours in cambodia.

april 2-may 1: thailand. may 1: visa run, overnight in cambodia.

may 2: new VOA in thailand. clock starts over.

the thai govt needs to define how long a person must leave after 30

days before his/her returns constitutes a new VOA or a renewal of the

previous one.

well, even if they say 1 week, that just means the visa-runners now

need to spend 1 week outside thailand for every 8 weeks they spend in

thailand. so they'll do it, and that's just 1 week of spending

thailand has forced them to give to cambodia/laos/singapore/malaysia

instead of thailand.

if thailand really wants to fix what they see as a problem, they need

to copy the way many western countries do it... an example would be a

policy that states "of every 180 days, a non-thai citizen can spend 91

days in thailand on a tourist visa." of course, then, they need to

have a good database to track that, because if immigration officers

have to figure it out at the airport by looking at a passport,

entering thailand will become a nightmare, and if they rely on

physical passports for the info, you'll find lots of foreigners

"losing" their passports every 3 months, and having new, clean,

unstamped passports when they enter thailand.

it sounds like they're defining it in a way that will just make it

harder for visa-runners to restart the "visa clock," but not

impossible for them to live and work in thailand on tourist visas,

considering they'll still be able to spend 59 of 60 days in thailand

(if they only need to leave 1 day to restart the VOA), or 8 of 9 weeks

in thailand (if they need to leave 1 full week).

if thailand does something crazy like saying you need to leave for 1

full month to restart the clock and get a new VOA, well, then they'll

lose lots of REAL tourists.

for example, i know one friend in 2005 who made visits to thailand in

january, february, and march. those visits would have prevented the

visits that he made in april and june.

then again in 2005, he made visits in august, october and november

that would've prevented his january (06) visit.

between each visit he flew all the way back to the USA, where he

works. in thailand, he didn't work and he spent (lots, mostly on

hotels though). he's exactly what the thai govt dreams of in a

tourist.... so they better think twice about how long of a requirement

they set for being gone to constitute a brand new VOA as opposed to a

"renewal."

[Sylver]

...If you're working, go get the proper visa...

and...

That said.... the things what is missing is a clear visa policy geared at the actual situation in Thailand. The 50/60K/month salary for teachers is a problem for most schools to pay... The same thing for visa instructors and so on.

Also, you are forbidden to work in a majority of the fields.

Even the "create your own company and get your work permit" is actually illegal (not to mention it costs a **** load of money, and require a serious amount of strictly useless paperwork). You are not supposed to be able to control it, you are not supposed to own more than 49% and your 7 thai partners are supposed to have a real envolvement in the company and not be simply nominees, and even with these requirements, you are still subject to the long list of jobs that can't be done by a foreigner.

Investment visa requires a little fortune.

The thing is, how do you get that proper visa thing? How do you get that proper work permit?

I have asked around and been told "sure, can do" but with a better look, it always turned out to be going around the law and finding loopholes, or to require major $$$.

I am not poor, but I don't happen to have 8 millions to "invest" long term, and I am not interested becoming yet another English teacher.

Up until now, the lenience in regards to the "tourist visa" served as a practical solution to a practical problem.

Now, if they tighten up the law blindly without consideration for the human factor, they may end up kicking out thousands of decent people who haven't commited a crime, break thousands of families, create a serious economic downturn for many...

And to what benefit? Getting rid of a few undesirables? Err. Couldn't there be a smarter way? (Actually, all they would have to do would be to apply the existing laws on prostitution to pattaya and Bangkok and most of the undesirables would be on their way out by themselves)

The thing is, when you're in a country 3x30 (90 days) then you are obliged to pay taxes. So hereby they are enforcing the law in a way that if you're here working.. pay taxes. I understand. I do pay my taxes too and I got the work permit coz doing a border run took too much time off. It was not easy though and I consider myself in a lucky position.

If taxes were the actual issue here, what about make it simple for foreigners to apply for a work permit, collect the taxes and do everything above the board? Much more sound a solution, economically speaking.

Besides if you think about it, foreigners also pay the VAT on the stuff they buy, (and taxation on goods is a much smarter way to collect taxes because it removes all the loopholes -currently rich folks don't pay taxes- and reduce the tremendous waste of work power involved with collecting income taxes), so it can't even be said that they don't pay taxes at all.

What I think Thailand really needs is some clear policy and maybe some scales of minimum salaries for certain jobs so attaining the proper visa is easier.

From what I had read (I stopped after page 24 on t.v.) it will still be up to the immigration office where you go. So exceptions can be made for people in really difficult situations where possible marriage breakups are a result but the main crackdown is on the land border runs.

That's also my understanding of the rumors (everybody is guessing at this stage)...it's gonna be up to the immigration officers to make the final choice.

Funny, because last I heard they wanted to reduce corruption...and it doesn't really look like the way to do it, me thinks.

...

About the real estate business. I agree with Zeus. Some people are really putting all they've got into a house over here (with or without their own shady real estate 'company' as a front) and don't have an extra 800K to put in the bank if they under 50.

"Some people". Correct. Some people. Will that be enough to create a massive drop on real estate prices? Nah. What would happen is that foreigners currently owning property and calling it quit will sell cheap and sell now, so there are going to be a number of very good deals to be made if that happens, but it would be a short term thing on a limited number of properties. Just a market quirk with, not a long term situation with overall price decrease. .

...

Overall this crackdown on back to back runners is 'meant' to crack down on 'undesirables' .. yet as with everythin the methods are questionnable.

Starting off with less corruption in the police would go a long way. If the real heavy guys want to get in, the 'will' get in. Guy X or Y who killed his wife could easily be nabbed at the border as well if they did their job.

I agree. If they are trying to deal with a crime situation, it would be smarter to try and address crime instead of kicking out people who have nothing to do with it.

I understand that they want people to apply for the proper visa and get some taxes and I think most will agree that foreigners over here will be happy to pay taxes as soon as they can stay here legally and don't have the whole border run hassle to think about anymore. The question then remains... what about the salary requirements...

...and not just the salary requirements.

What need is there for this society to prevent people from working? Work is the real contribution to society. Not taxes. Work.

The guys/gals works. Great. I would never be upset over immigrants working in my country. I would only be upset over immigrants living in my country and NOT working.

Besides, if you have a look at where taxes go and how they are spent, you will realize that in many countries (I can't speak for Thailand per se, I don't know the details here) a large percentage of the taxes collected is used in a "less than optimal" fashion.

[frankenburner2]

"I would never be upset over immigrants working in my country. I would only be upset over immigrants living in my country and NOT working. "

Interesting point....Canadian immigration is set up primarily to stop the flow of people coming into the country and living off of the welfare programs. There are concerns about non-canadians taking jobs from canadians....but i believe this to be less of concern.

Seems to me, in the example of english teachers, The thai government would want to "encourage" qualified native speakers to come to thailand and improve the overall english language skills of its people....not the other way around. Nearly impossible work permit regulations do not encourage anything other than the previous common practice of border runs....

[Sylver]

...

<<<<<make it more difficult for foreigners to LIVE and WORK>>>>>

As for foreigners to LIVE and WORK here... its not really that difficult if you go through the process of filling the proper paperwork, have real company to work for and/or have a business that is paying your fair share of taxes. This includes you Internet Business Guys, yea you are supposed to pay taxes too...Hey, under BOI, I don?t even have to pay any income taxes for the next 10 years...How good is that!!!!...and I can buy a house or a factory too...not just some condo with a land hold title...You dont even have to get married!

Hey, this looks great! Why don't you explain us how this is done, how much money upfront you need and whether or not you wouldn't happen to be taking advantage of a few loop holes yourself?

What's your start up capital, before you can deal with the BOI?

Well done if that works for you, but that doesn't mean people with less than a few millions in spare change are criminals or undesirables.

Think about it, we had some crazy criminal English teacher/ terrorist / murderer / etc...work and stay here for x,xx,10 years, un-noticed, hidden from the US/ UK/ AUS authorities... His little Mexico if you will...and all he had to do was a visa run every month to another third world country...

Now how much better would you feel if the guy sitting next to you in the bar was not some wanted kiddy porn child molester guy from UK / US / Germany on the run...but hiding in Thailand...free, sipping Mai Thais instead of behind bars.

If you are trying to fight crime, then fight crime. Not decent people working in a country they happen to like, or where they have affective links.

Actually, the border-run system means that your "child molester" has to show up at the immigration police every month, so his chances of getting caught are high, if the police decides to do it.

Besides, I would go as far as saying that what really matters is what the guy is doing now. Not 10 years ago. If the guy is a child molester in Thailand, he belongs in a Thai jail, and should be arrested just like any other criminal currently commiting crimes.

And if he has not commited crimes in the last 10 years, what good would it be to send him to jail?

However, most foreigners doing visa runs are not child molesters or otherwise criminals. Why treat them as if they were?

...

If u want to retire... they allow it, prove u have enough money to retire on...

If you want to work and have a business...through a Division in Thai Trade, they pay you to help promote exports / food products/ or spa services from Thailand. Through the Industry Promotions division...there is also free money there too, but you are to help the country grow...

This is definitely interesting and I would love to have more data on that. I think most of us here like this country and want to contribute.

Enlighten us.

[zeusbheld]

how long do you need to leave thailand after your first 30-day visit

before you're issue a new VOA (so that the clock re-starts for you)

vs. being issued a "renewal" for the existing VOA?

are they saying if you re-enter on the same day, that's just an

extension of your previous 30-day visa? ok, fine, people will just do

over-nights in cambodia for their visa runs... now thailand is just

forcing them to make longer visa runs and spend more outside of

thailand, but it hasn't stopped them from living and working in

thailand on tourist visas.

as i understand it, you DONT have to leave the country to renew your stay if you're here on a stamp, you get 2 renewals stamped in thailand, and then have to leave for 90 days after 90 days.

but if they extend the "must-go" period too long, they'll basically be

preventing many legit tourists who come here 4 or 5 times/year from

overseas...

how that will play out is anyone's guess. one thing is clear--they are targeting the people who make border runs. they might be more lenient at airports. also remember it's election time.

[zeusbheld]

...

<<<<<make it more difficult for foreigners to LIVE and WORK>>>>>

As for foreigners to LIVE and WORK here... its not really that difficult if you go through the process of filling the proper paperwork, have real company to work for and/or have a business that is paying your fair share of taxes. This includes you Internet Business Guys, yea you are supposed to pay taxes too...Hey, under BOI, I don?t even have to pay any income taxes for the next 10 years...How good is that!!!!...and I can buy a house or a factory too...not just some condo with a land hold title...You dont even have to get married!

Hey, this looks great! Why don't you explain us how this is done, how much money upfront you need and whether or not you wouldn't happen to be taking advantage of a few loop holes yourself?

What's your start up capital, before you can deal with the BOI?

see www.thaivisa.com. they have general information and forums, dealing with this sort of question.

If u want to retire... they allow it, prove u have enough money to retire on...

If you want to work and have a business...through a Division in Thai Trade, they pay you to help promote exports / food products/ or spa services from Thailand. Through the Industry Promotions division...there is also free money there too, but you are to help the country grow...

This is definitely interesting and I would love to have more data on that. I think most of us here like this country and want to contribute.

Enlighten us.

again see www.thaivisa.com.

[Sylver]

...

and of course the whole database will work the first time out of the box, in spite of the complexity of the task. smoothly and quickly. never worked in IT or commissioned an IT project, i guess?

Bad guess.

And no, I don't expect it to work perfect right out of the box. Sure there would be a number of disturbance, but only temporary disturbances. Not a long term situation.

if all it had to do was FIND people on the blacklist that would be easy; but it is CREATING the blacklist by performing arithmetic on the number of entries, their duration, etc. that means in order to work properly the database would have to coordinate EVERY entry point in thailand. do you really think your 'magic database' will work faster than having the officer flip through your passport and make a judgment call? either way, lines will be longer.

Magic database. Lol.

It really isn't that hard. All you need to do is to have a VPN connecting all entry points -which probably already exists- have a central database containing all the data (with redundancy and regular back-up - which already exists too). Then, a simple SQL query will give you a dynamic black list. End of story.

I would take me a couple weeks do that in PHP/MySQL. Of course, they would have to do it with mission critical languages/plateform, but in essence, the thing is pretty easy. Store the name, date, visa type and recover it with a few WHERE / LIKE.

What are the benefits? Do they really expect this will reduce crime? How many crimes have been commited by long term expats on tourist visas?

if you actually read the limited information out there, such as the forbes article (the bkk post article is utterly incoherent) they appear to be directing this at people working illegally on tourist visas. this includes a lot of chinese and indian business people of varying legitimacy, and farrangs, mostly teaching english and scuba diving. i'm not sure any of the countries involved know how to tax IT workers who live anywhere they want and get paid through paypal from someone in another country.

So you consider that people working illegally are criminals, their crime being to be there and working.

A crime is something that damages considerably society or individuals.

Expats working are not criminals.

... but be good news for ppl with real visas--the price of nice apartments and beach houses would plummet.

Probably not. People who currently own/lease those nice properties (that's 4 millions up, or 40,000+ per month) have significant financial means and can handle the more expensive visa alternatives.

depends on your definition of nice then doesn't it. apartments in the 10,000 - 25,000 range will become vacant in significant numbers and cheaper condos will suddenly be deprived of their sex tourists.

When you said "nice property", I indeed understood you meant "high-end"

I agree with you that there will be some vacancies in the 10,000 to 25,000 bracket.

The people hit are regular Joes making a living with some mid-range jobs and unable to put 800,000 in some bank just for the sake of a visa. (A well paid teacher would need to save for about 5 years to get this kind of money, for instance)

if they are regular joes working in midrange jobs, these midrange jobs should provide a visa. sadly most dont, especially teaching jobs.

It's a matter of practical application. Theorically, most should provide. But on the ground, they don't. Now implementing a law that would force out thousand of regular Joes is kind of ridiculous, isn't it?

About the consequence on the quality of English teaching, nah. That wouldn't be such a bad change. Why? There has been a huge volume of Native English speakers teaching in Thailand for the last 30 years. And the English level stinks. I would venture that there are less native English speaking teachers in Malaysia/Singapore... where English is well spoken by a majority of the population.

ever been to china? ever talk to someone who learned english from other chinese, who learned english from other chinese, and no one in the chain ever learned from a native speaker? try it some time and get back to me on this one, k?

ps the careful observer will note that english is an official language of singapore, so that is an exceptionally shitty example.

Like you say, English is an official language of Singapore, but that's on paper. It isn't a language spoken in the day to day life. Walk the streets and listen to people talking. How many of them use English amongst themselves? They usually don't.

This means that kids have to learn it in school. They don't learn it by hearing it every day. Just because English is an official language doesn't mean they will listen/speak in English with their familly or friends.

They learn it in school, just like Thai kids learn it in school. So we end up having to compare Thai schools and Singaporean schools, don't we? And that means having to compare teachers and teaching methods too.

Yes, as a professional translator and a reasonably well travelled individual, I had a few opportunities to witness the level of English of people from different backgrounds and education levels. And while I do not blame foreign teachers for the poor levels of English observed in Thailand, I feel it is inaccurate to assume that the levels of English would terribly suffer in the event of an exodus .

[kfg_johnny]

"Besides, I would go as far as saying that what really matters is what the guy is doing now. Not 10 years ago. If the guy is a child molester in Thailand, he belongs in a Thai jail, and should be arrested just like any other criminal currently commiting crimes.

And if he has not commited crimes in the last 10 years, what good would it be to send him to jail? "

Sorry that you feel statutes of limitations should apply to all circumstances of criminal activities. If you commit a crime 10 years ago, you should still be held responsible, even if that crime was not committed in the country where you currently reside. If some guy has found god and kept his nose clean for 10 years, his actions should be forgiven? I think not!

Under most criminal and western laws, it is up members of your peers and a judge to determine how guilty and repentful you are and how long you should be locked away from society or how much retribution you should pay for. But ,this belongs on another thread.

If the guy is a child molester in another country, he should be forgiven because he has not been caught doing the same things here in Thailand... sorry! Not acceptable in any circumstances!

Sorry guys, but there is a distinct difference between a ?tourist and NON-immigrant? and a "freeloader"... sorry if u don?t like my expression.. But until all of these good people can come up with a better name, I shall use this...

Yes, there are 700,000 tourists from UK a year... great...699,900 will actually return within the 90 days of arriving, because they have finished their holidays...and now must return to work.. So they can repeat the system all over again.

The 100's or 1000's or so that choose to do multiple non- immigrant visa runs...good for YOU for deciding that YOU like Thailand so much that you are to either too lazy, incompetent, or have some other lame excuse you wish to come up with, that you cannot walk into the Thai immigration office, fill out a few forms, and go through the hoops that the rest of us have to...here is a tissue for you to weep onto...

The change of policy was to help the true 699,900 UK "tourists and nonimmigrants" every year...and the rest of the millions of "Tourists and nonimmigrants" from other countries that come and visit...not just the few that liked it here so we will stay attitude...

For those that are independently wealthy, get your money from abroad, work as a consultant, writer, internet business, or ?freeloader? ...STOP being such a cheap bastard and go through the process of doing things right!

Follow the rules of the country that you are a "Guest" in.

If you don?t like it...move to Malaysia, Cambodia, Laos, or any other so called "farang friendly" country and come back to Thailand for the "holiday" that you enjoy so much.

As an American and a Canadian... I can speak freely about global business... I pay my fair share of US income taxes, and I have not lived in the US since I was a teenager. I pay and maintain my Canadian residence and Canadian Taxes, even though I have not been there in 9 months...and because of how you can structure your life and business in Thailand, you can get an exemption for 10 years income taxes in Thailand, get multiple entries at will, can stay for as long as you want, have Thai Bank accounts, and other benefits of being proper and be legal. This applies to all of the Expats that work for me here in Bkk, because they all have proper work permits! And the process does not take more than 4 days to finalize.

Here is an example of taxes they pay... 100,000 bht salary...only 12,000bht in tax deductions, that's 12%....try that in Canada, UK, NZ. AUS, or USA... you can?t!!! Whatthey have to pay in their home country as a non resident is up to them and their situation.

If you are a "quality guest", and/or independently wealthy, are able to buy a house, and live a nice semi-retired life, suck it up and fill out the immigrant visa paperwork and do it right, you may have to pay a little bit in taxes on earned income while in Thailand, but is it really that much? If so, then hire a proper accountant and open an off shore bank account and a shell company like or PM Taksin did...nothing wrong with it...and its all legal...maybe not moral?but legal!

Sorry, but this issue has become a sore spot for me...too many damn whiners..."Thailand is making my lazy sunny days on the beach more difficult for me to enjoy"...or " now, I have to work for a legit company and become responsible for the counrty that houses me." or " why cant the gov't be happy with all of the bar girls I support and love so dearly on a monthly basis... don't they know it will break up our happpy 'non-existant' drunken relationship?"

[Sylver]

see www.thaivisa.com. they have general information and forums, dealing with this sort of question.

I am aware of www.thaivisa.com, and it's indeed a great source of information.

What I have read so far however point to 2 things:

1. You need to have serious money to get started and/or

2. You need to use some loophole in the system.

I know that for a lot of people, the few million baths (required to start legally a company and being an employee of that company) is loose change, but for the screaming majority of the visa runners, it isn't.

So when I see one of these posts saying it's easy to just start your own business here and get the proper visa, I wonder. Am I missing something? Or am I just talking to a rich-brat who has no clue of the financial situation of most people on this planet?

And I sure hope I am simply missing something.

[kfg_johnny]

"So you consider that people working illegally are criminals, their crime being to be there and working.

A crime is something that damages considerably society or individuals.

Expats working are not criminals."

<<< this is funny>>>

how else to say this in non legal language and in English....people working illegally are criminals

A crime is something that breaks the laws established by the people of the counrty, be it civil or criminal. The laws were written to protect and serve the people of those it serves. Thats why laws can be changed as peoples perception of those laws change.

illegally: usually refers to as against the law, not legal in the words written and understood by those who uphold the law.

Criminal: usually refers to those that broke the law, whether caught or still on the lam at this given time.

Expat: An expatriate (in abbreviated form, expat) is someone temporarily or permanently residing in a country and culture other than that of their upbringing or legal residence.

The difference between an expatriate and an immigrant is that immigrants (for the most part) commit themselves to becoming a part of their country of residence, whereas expatriates are usually only temporarily placed in the host country and most of the time plan on returning to their home country, so they never adopt the culture in the host country.

So,YES!!! ....an Expat...who is working illegally is technically a criminal !

and a few million baht, is that really so much to start a legal business..you cant even get a good used Benz in Bkk for that...and if you are in your mid 30's up to late 40's and dont have that saved up from your life savings...you better get your ass out of Thailand and get your ass to work.. cuz u cant afford to be here either!!!

[zeusbheld]

Magic database. Lol.

It really isn't that hard. All you need to do is to have a VPN connecting all entry points -which probably already exists- have a central database containing all the data (with redundancy and regular back-up - which already exists too). Then, a simple SQL query will give you a dynamic black list. End of story.

given that the software would be easy--what about the hardware? seems many land crossings are not computerized at all.

So you consider that people working illegally are criminals, their crime being to be there and working.

A crime is something that damages considerably society or individuals.

Expats working are not criminals.

it doesn't matter WHAT *i* consider them, or what *you* consider them. but if they are working illegally, most governments consider them criminals.

and apparently enough thai citizens want them out that the people making hte announcement thought it a good move at election time.

those are what really matter. if there *is* a ripple through the economy and it ends up the thai gov't shoots themselves in the foot, that's between the thai gov't and the thai people. moral outrage felt by affected farrangs will be pretty much irrelevant.

It's a matter of practical application. Theorically, most should provide. But on the ground, they don't. Now implementing a law that would force out thousand of regular Joes is kind of ridiculous, isn't it?

if you believe that the mere fact that a law or rule change is ridiculous or even harmful to the economy would prevent the thai authorities from implementing it, you haven't been following thailand that closely.

Like you say, English is an official language of Singapore, but that's on paper. It isn't a language spoken in the day to day life. Walk the streets and listen to people talking. How many of them use English amongst themselves? They usually don't.

actually, have you ever ridden the train there? many of them DO use it amongst themselves. i have friends who grew up in singapore and ALL of them learned english AT HOME (along with about 3 flavors of chinese).

This means that kids have to learn it in school. They don't learn it by hearing it every day. Just because English is an official language doesn't mean they will listen/speak in English with their familly or friends.

obviously, but it does mean it will be taught more often in schools and most likely to some official standard, as opposed to randomly, haphazardly and (mostly) privately as it is in thailand --or china for another example.

also, if you've been to singapore and never heard singaporeans speaking 'singlish' amongst themselves, then you went to a singapore that's on a different planet than the one i've been to (which is on earth, btw). again, according to most living, breathing singaporeans i've talked to they do indeed learn english, along with several other languages, at home.

Yes, as a professional translator and a reasonably well travelled individual, I had a few opportunities to witness the level of English of people from different backgrounds and education levels. And while I do not blame foreign teachers for the poor levels of English observed in Thailand, I feel it is inaccurate to assume that the levels of English would terribly suffer in the event of an exodus .

given the levels of englesh showed buy most 'unofishal' inglash teechers, (native speekers too) it mite be a lateral move... it mite not makes things worser at all...

[Chris]

As of October 1, 2006 the 3 million baht investment visa will no longer be available

It has been brought to the attention of Sunbelt Asia that as of October 1, 2006 the 3 million baht investment visa will no longer be available.

This includes bank investments, condominium investments, and bond investments.

Not only will it NOT be issued, but you CANNOT renew your current investment visa on this basis.

The official statement from Thai immigration is expected this week.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=82914

[zeusbheld]

"

If the guy is a child molester in another country, he should be forgiven because he has not been caught doing the same things here in Thailand... sorry! Not acceptable in any circumstances!

the careful observer will also note that child molesting has a disturbingly high recidivism rate.

The 100's or 1000's or so that choose to do multiple non- immigrant visa runs...good for YOU for deciding that YOU like Thailand so much that you are to either too lazy, incompetent, or have some other lame excuse you wish to come up with, that you cannot walk into the Thai immigration office, fill out a few forms, and go through the hoops that the rest of us have to...here is a tissue for you to weep onto...

and for those 'dropouts' living from their investments--or people who, say, took a year off working to write a book and choose to stay in thailand--so far most sources say multiple entry tourist VISAS are not affected yet.

they are going after the 30-day-busride people.

The change of policy was to help the true 699,900 UK "tourists and nonimmigrants" every year...and the rest of the millions of "Tourists and nonimmigrants" from other countries that come and visit...not just the few that liked it here so we will stay attitude...

and getting 90 days without having to make a border run is helpful for those tourists and thailand--thai bureacracy collects their money instead of cambodian (or malay etc) border bureacrats.

For those that are independently wealthy, get your money from abroad, work as a consultant, writer, internet business, or ?freeloader? ...STOP being such a cheap bastard and go through the process of doing things right!

Follow the rules of the country that you are a "Guest" in.

fair enough, but the careful observer will note that unless they were working, the 30-day-border-scoot crowd weren't breaking any rules (until the change, effective october 1).

As an American and a Canadian... I can speak freely about global business... I pay my fair share of US income taxes, and I have not lived in the US since I was a teenager.

as an american with an american tax accountant, my understanding is that if you don't live in the USA you don't pay personal income tax, just social security.

Sorry, but this issue has become a sore spot for me...too many damn whiners..."Thailand is making my lazy sunny days on the beach more difficult for me to enjoy"...or " now, I have to work for a legit company and become responsible for the counrty that houses me." or " why cant the gov't be happy with all of the bar girls I support and love so dearly on a monthly basis... don't they know it will break up our happpy 'non-existant' drunken relationship?"

have you no heart?? what about all the buffalos that will die if the sick buffalo payments are redirected toward taxes?

[Chris]

LOL @ spiroidial.

Yes.. Can be a good business coming up.. In fact I envision some wealthy locals (in the 100-500 million baht range) to come up with 'services' that offer work permits. It won't be advertised in the newspapers or on every corner but I'm sure that the new laws 'will' benefit 'some' people financially.