USA and the Gun Lobby

[Loburt]

My "contempt" was oriented towards your media and the simplicity of their worldview, not your people. My brush has painted a caricature of a caricature, the worldview that Miss South Carolina has articulated so well recently.

You see this as a narrowmindedness on my behalf, but I really can't help it if your media cannot come up with a balanced picture of what is my planet too.

The fact that you believe you know everything better about America is narrowminded in its own right because what you do not know is the image you and your media project towards the rest of the world. That's an image you can't perceive but the rest of us here can and well "narrowminded" would be like an understatement there.

If you don't like the reflection then don't shoot the messenger but do something about it maybe.

The U.S. media is not just Fox News and Entertainment Tonite. It includes The NY Times, Washington Post, MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour, Frontline, 60 Minutes and many others, which in total, provide a wealth of high-quality and balanced reporting that your country can't match.

If you can portray the entire US media as simplistically and with such an incredibly narrow mind as that, then you are far more worthy of contempt.

[Loburt]

i do not try and change your laws why do you wish to change our basic rights?

Mate are you seriously saying that carrying deadly weapons is a basic right just cos some said it should be? Ranking alongside the right to food, shelter, work and the vote comes the right to shoot people with a gun?

Dude if someone threatens mine then I'd utilise any means at my disposal to deal with them, I don't need to be told that's ok to carry a deadly weapon in case of just such an eventuality.

Something tells me that the founding fathers, when sitting round discussing the new novel constitution barely some 300 years ago, weren't considering the society of today, when one of them said "Hey! Stick guns in it! Yeah! Let's make it way legal to kill injuns if they attack!!! I wanna kill folks!!!", to which everyone obviously cried"Good call!!!"

Basic rights my arse.

As I just said, I favor gun control.

Nonetheless, under the present interpretation of the second ammendment to the constitution by the Supreme Court, it is in fact a basic right.

And if you lived in a frontier society, you might consider it a basic right also.

Even more important, if you lived in a young nation with a tiny standing army that had to win its freedom from the world Empire of that time, and at the time the constitution was written was still under serious threat from that Empire - seeing as it was as abusive and bullying as most empires are - you would want your citizens to be armed also.

Basic rights, however, are not unlimited rights. Free speech is a basic right under the U.S. constitution. Nonetheless, as the courts have said, 'you can't yell fire in a crowded theater.'

Exactly.

The constitution was written with the fact that it was a frontier country in mind and reflected the needs of that time. They weren't thinking beyond the next few years. But a Law is not a basic HUMAN right.

So how someone can justify his need for a gun (there's only ONE purpose for a gun), using 300-year-old circumstances is beyond me.

Bandying words like Basic Rights around willy nilly whenever it suits one's point of view hardly amounts to a convincing argument. A basic Right is just that, not something which some bloke thought it should be just coz it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Bloody hell we'll have someone claiming that wearing Levi's is a Basic Right next.

Basic rights are what people and society agree they are.

The fact that the constitution can be ammended means that society can change it's mind about what constitutes those basic rights.

It seems the person throwing the term basic rights around willy nilly is you.

For instance, you said voting was a basic right. In a democracy it is. But most nations are not democracies.

As far as universal human rights are concerned, the right to bear arms is not in the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.

But the original poster wasn't talking about universal human rights. He did not say it is a basic right of anyone anywhere in the world to own a gun. He was referring to the laws of his land. And according to the laws of his land as interpreted by its courts, the right to bear arms is one of the basic rights.

As I said, once again, I don't favor this particular right. But it's for the people of the US to decide whether or not to change that.

Until they do, as much as I oppose it, the poster is CORRECT when he says it is, in his society, a basic right to own a gun.

[Loburt]

My "contempt" was oriented towards your media and the simplicity of their worldview, not your people. My brush has painted a caricature of a caricature, the worldview that Miss South Carolina has articulated so well recently.

You see this as a narrowmindedness on my behalf, but I really can't help it if your media cannot come up with a balanced picture of what is my planet too.

The fact that you believe you know everything better about America is narrowminded in its own right because what you do not know is the image you and your media project towards the rest of the world. That's an image you can't perceive but the rest of us here can and well "narrowminded" would be like an understatement there.

If you don't like the reflection then don't shoot the messenger but do something about it maybe.

The U.S. media is not just Fox News and Entertainment Tonite. It includes The NY Times, Washington Post, MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour, Frontline, 60 Minutes and many others, which in total, provide a wealth of high-quality and balanced reporting that your country can't match.

If you can portray the entire US media as simplistically and with such an incredibly narrow mind as that, then you are far more worthy of contempt.

I'll say it again then:

If you don't like the reflection then don't shoot the messenger but do something about it maybe.

If you're all such smartasses reading the NYTimes then I wonder how cum there's trouble all over your faces. I guess those "leftist" newspapers are more read abroad than by your own folks. And anyway perhaps they sound more sophisticated in vocabulary and speech, but the basic mentality is hardly any different seen from 4000 km away. Sorry for that buddy.

Well, "buddy", I'm sorry you are so poorly educated that you can't see the difference between the NY Times and the National Enquirer when you read it. Not that I expect you've ever read any of them, or seen any US news beyond Fox and CNN, because you're so closed minded, biased and intellectually lazy. You have probably seen one or two news stations at most and from that are condemning the entire media.

The problem is not in what's being published or broadcast. The problem is with who's reading, or not reading it. And you sure don't seem to be reading any of it.

We're not all such "smartasses." But you sure seem to be.

[trocks69]

i have dyslexia for me to just write something is a labor much less post something that is welll written. it took me twice as long to do papers in college because of this, so bugger off.

kids killing kids do not blame the weapon put the blame where it belongs on the parents that do not teach their kids to handle and use weapons. they are the adults and the ones responsible for teaching not anyone else.in almost all the cases of kids killing kids look at the parents or lack of parenting.

i have yet to understand why anyone wants to blame a weapon for killing another person. its the person behind the trigger. if he wants to kill some one he will with what ever he can find to do it with.

once again this is a 2nd ammendment right you non americans will never understand that because expect your goverment take care of you. we are responsible for ourselves. most of you seem to be glued to tv sets watching mass produced media showing only the worst of what is going on in other countries. here is a clue that news program is there for one thing only, to make money for its owners. granted of course the news programs here are the same so you can not believe the rubbish we see coming out of the rest of the world.

this is the last i will say about this mainly because i have had this argument before with non americans and i would rather beat my head into a wall.

it is our country not yours fix your stay out of mine. i do not try and change your laws why do you wish to change our basic rights? to make us a screwed up as most of the rest of the world is.no thanks . to many people died for those basic rights who believed in them. i believe in them also and will fight for those rights. so do most americans.

best arguement i have seen yet for NOT allowing f**king loonies like this to own firearms !!!

you'll love this then. i own and store over 500 different types of weapons in my house. granted most of them are stored in a walk in closet that was turned in to a large safe. the majority of the weapons i have are colletors pieces. they are all working firearms that i have collected or inherited from my family. i do have others that are not locked up and stay out in the living areas of my house. as well as 2 different handguns that i carry when i leave the house or travel for my job, if the state i am going to recongnizes my concealed handgun permit.

in 34 years of owning guns i have only had to pull a weapon once in my life and thank god i did not have to use it. threating me in front of my house with my family inside is a big mistake. that guy was arrested and taken to jail within a few minutes after the cops arrived.

i am for gun control and i do not believe everyone showed be able to own weapons.this is felons, which they are not able to own. there are laws in place now in most states that give adequate gun control. the rest is up to education and parenting when you have children in the house. everone in my house knows how to use a gun from loading to firing and disassembly and cleaning. i made sure of this. they completely understand about gun safty, laws and justafiable use of these weapons.

as far as fully automatic weapons there really is no reason to own one of these weapons. they are military tools and should stay with the military. although they are a lot of fun to shoot, i would not have one in my house for the sole reason that it takes special training to use such a weapon efectively in home protection.

to me people who dont own weapons responsabley are the loonies. are others from other countries trying to change my countries laws. you dont understand are history are laws are the people who live here. the majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens, that you would be supprised who they really are. they just want to protect what is their family and property.

[trocks69]

pi ant--- i really dont think any of the weapons have been used in the commision of a murder. some of the old weapons from wars might have but i have no way of verfiying that.

as far as some kid shoting me in a store it can happen but i have notieced from reports of robbries around the country that most of them cant aim worth a damm. i can and am very much a marksmen. the place i live in the states is a upper middle class area with very little crime and good police response. where my kids live now is even more crime free then the usa. i feel a lot safer there then i do in the usa.

but kids using there parents guns for killing others needs to be blamed on poor parenting not on the weapons. the parents did not teach the proper handling and use of the weapons.

the area of texas i grew up in was a farming community. the whole time my family has lived there. as far as i know not one death has been reported because of mishandling of a weapon by a kid, nor accidents. the parents teach their kids to use and handle a weapon just like any other tool. i am not sure what city parents do different that their kids are trigger happy with weapons. my be it has to do with kids in the country being exposed to what a gun does to a animal when it is shot.

[Neo]

The U.S. media is not just Fox News and Entertainment Tonite. It includes The NY Times, Washington Post, MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour, Frontline, 60 Minutes and many others, which in total, provide a wealth of high-quality and balanced reporting that your country can't match.

If you can portray the entire US media as simplistically and with such an incredibly narrow mind as that, then you are far more worthy of contempt.

Woah, now come on Loburt.. surely you of all people don't think that these fine establishments aren't towing some patriotic line here and there? You've lived outside the states long enough to see that by now. There's precious little media in the US that isn't tainted with "don't destroy us please Mr Dictator"-isms.

[Neo]

but kids using there parents guns for killing others needs to be blamed on poor parenting not on the weapons. the parents did not teach the proper handling and use of the weapons.

So clearly people are dying due to bad parenting. How about the US fixes the bad parenting, but just as a safety precaution in the meantime, you know save the odd hundred lives here and there, TAKE THE F'ING GUNS AWAY!

Jeez, what is it with you guys and your toys. "But we wanna play cowboys and Indians.. bang bang you're dead"

grow up.

[Loburt]

The U.S. media is not just Fox News and Entertainment Tonite. It includes The NY Times, Washington Post, MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour, Frontline, 60 Minutes and many others, which in total, provide a wealth of high-quality and balanced reporting that your country can't match.

If you can portray the entire US media as simplistically and with such an incredibly narrow mind as that, then you are far more worthy of contempt.

Woah, now come on Loburt.. surely you of all people don't think that these fine establishments aren't towing some patriotic line here and there? You've lived outside the states long enough to see that by now. There's precious little media in the US that isn't tainted with "don't destroy us please Mr Dictator"-isms.

While I don't have anything positive to say about Fox News, no, Neo, CNN is not towing some patriotic line. There are plenty of reports on CNN that are critical of the government and military.

I addressed this in the other thread yesterday. You clearly have an anti-American bias and when a US-based or owned news outlet doesn't report things in synch with your own personal bias, you scream they are biased, or patriotic or whatever. Really, you sound like a child. You are far more biased than most media I see and read.

Your last sentence is complete bullshit. How much media from the US do you read or see that you can make a statement like that?

You see or read less than a fraction of 1% of US media and then you make idiotic pronouncements about the entire US media.

Talk about needing to grow up.

[Neo]

The U.S. media is not just Fox News and Entertainment Tonite. It includes The NY Times, Washington Post, MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour, Frontline, 60 Minutes and many others, which in total, provide a wealth of high-quality and balanced reporting that your country can't match.

If you can portray the entire US media as simplistically and with such an incredibly narrow mind as that, then you are far more worthy of contempt.

Woah, now come on Loburt.. surely you of all people don't think that these fine establishments aren't towing some patriotic line here and there? You've lived outside the states long enough to see that by now. There's precious little media in the US that isn't tainted with "don't destroy us please Mr Dictator"-isms.

While I don't have anything positive to say about Fox News, no, Neo, CNN is not towing some patriotic line. There are plenty of reports on CNN that are critical of the government and military.

I addressed this in the other thread yesterday. You clearly have an anti-American bias and when a US-based or owned news outlet doesn't report things in synch with your own personal bias, you scream they are biased, or patriotic or whatever. Really, you sound like a child. You are far more biased than most media I see and read.

Your last sentence is complete bullshit. How much media from the US do you read or see that you can make a statement like that?

You see or read less than a fraction of 1% of US media and then you make idiotic pronouncements about the entire US media.

Talk about needing to grow up.

Well I've spent quite a bit of time in the US, enough to see lots of "news" media. Yes there are some shows that dare to be critical of the government and the military but the cloying buying-in to the "war against terror" is quite pervasive. CNN have definitely shown government policy bias in some of their reports, and even the government critics are tainted with the War On Terror doublespeak.

[Loburt]

There are plenty of shows that are critical of the government and the military, not just a few.

So everyone, even the critics, are tainted?

You just showed your bias.

With every post you become even less believable than Fox News, and I don't believe anything they report.

[CiaranM]

i would guess a lot of events in the world can be reported without bias .... natural disasters, airway accidents etc.

however, when it comes to incidents with a political slant ... most organisations will show a bias to what they believe is the correct viewpoint !!!

[trocks69]

but kids using there parents guns for killing others needs to be blamed on poor parenting not on the weapons. the parents did not teach the proper handling and use of the weapons.

So clearly people are dying due to bad parenting. How about the US fixes the bad parenting, but just as a safety precaution in the meantime, you know save the odd hundred lives here and there, TAKE THE F'ING GUNS AWAY!

Jeez, what is it with you guys and your toys. "But we wanna play cowboys and Indians.. bang bang you're dead"

grow up.

you most likely never have owned a gun in your life otherwise you would not refer to them as toys. they are tools or weapons not a toy!!

why should the goverment have to take care of the people. the people need to be responsible for themselves not the other way around. the usa has more then enough laws and we dont need any more. i know i dont care for most of the laws the usa goverment forces me to obey. most of them are petty crap because people are unwilling to take responsibility for their own actions. i live in a pretty free country and wish it to stay that way. if the parents dont care to teach their kids gun safty start sending them to jail or the gas chamber. they are the ones that need to be punished along with the offender.

pi ant..... i keep thinking about what you said if the gun would be worth more if it had been used to kill some one. in certain cases i do believe that the gun will be worth more to collectors. if i would want to own a weapon like that am really not sure i could nor would i want to.

[trocks69]

wouldn't collect an african machete but i have been looking into samuri swords. i some how find a lot more honor in the killing because of the code of bushido. it would not bother me a bit owning a sword like that even if i knew it had been used to kill. just dont think i could afford them.

its a shame actually the schools teach more sex ed then the parents. people here want to pass everything on to the goverment. when they should take a active role in their kids welfare.

[paulgh3rd]

being a gun advocate I am pro gun but also pro gun control. There is a need to have some tighter restrictions but stupid things like child safety locks will only end up causing the death of people who need their guns when time comes. People who have gunes and do not educate and train their kids on their use are the ones who their kid shoot someone or themself playing with it.

In your research you antigun nuts... you wll notice NO member of the NRA has had his child shot by a gun or shot someone else! It's also the psedo-intellectuals who try to hide the gun and then it's becomes a toy and something taboo.

This being said there is no reason anyone can not wait a week to purchase a gun and also no reason anyone needs anything above semi-autto refiles or pistols. Full auto and modified full auto (which can easily be remodified to full auto again) serve no real purpose. If you live in a situation a 8 round pump shotgun can't solve your problem you do not deserve to live in the first place! lol Iit's called dwarnism should I can't my m-203 grenade launcher in this as well? haha

[Loburt]

In your research you antigun nuts... you wll notice NO member of the NRA has had his child shot by a gun or shot someone else! It's also the psedo-intellectuals who try to hide the gun and then it's becomes a toy and something taboo.

that is such bullshit, paul.

[CiaranM]

wouldn't collect an african machete but i have been looking into samuri swords. i some how find a lot more honor in the killing because of the code of bushido. it would not bother me a bit owning a sword like that even if i knew it had been used to kill. just dont think i could afford them.

geeezzzz ... and then u wonder why we think not everybody should be allowed a firearm !!!!!!!!

[CiaranM]

if the parents dont care to teach their kids gun safty start sending them to jail or the gas chamber. they are the ones that need to be punished along with the offender.

dude u got some real serious issues ..... it's ppl like U who shouldn't be allowed to own guns .... white sheets and flaming torches r dangerous enough !!!!

[Slurms]

Look...I can put this argument to rest .

My dad gave me his R4 assault rifle . For a time I was legally allowed to own it .Me and an assault rifle .

Still think freedom to own guns is a good idea ?

[trocks69]

if the parents dont care to teach their kids gun safty start sending them to jail or the gas chamber. they are the ones that need to be punished along with the offender.

dude u got some real serious issues ..... it's ppl like U who shouldn't be allowed to own guns .... white sheets and flaming torches r dangerous enough !!!!

you most likely have no idea what a insult with my ethnic back ground that is..do you even have a clue as to the people that wore white sheets are??? are do you just spout what ever small minded crap off the top of your head??

[CiaranM]

if the parents dont care to teach their kids gun safty start sending them to jail or the gas chamber. they are the ones that need to be punished along with the offender.

dude u got some real serious issues ..... it's ppl like U who shouldn't be allowed to own guns .... white sheets and flaming torches r dangerous enough !!!!

you most likely have no idea what a insult with my ethnic back ground that is..do you even have a clue as to the people that wore white sheets are??? are do you just spout what ever small minded crap off the top of your head??

i would say that the guys who wore white sheets are of the same type of mentality as guys who would advocate sending ppl to the gas chamber !!!

although maybe u don't see the connection !!!!

[trocks69]

nope i dont the white sheet guys are racist on line with hitler. they believe anyone not of the white or so called aryan race are animals and should be treated as such. they are the people who hang you for being a different color. drag you behind a truck bumper till your head pops off for being the wrong color. you want to compare me with them???

all i am say in sending people for capital punishment is that they should be held accountable for having a weapon for their kid to be able to get a hold of and commit murder.if they had taught the kid right from wrong to begain with things like that would not happen. i know these events are tragedys on a scale most people can not imagine. i have a good idea how it feels. one of my class mates in my sophmore year killed his parents with their own gun one morning before he came to school.then he turned himself into his teacher. in this case the parents could not be held accountable for their kid killing but it could have turned out completely different if he had come to school and started killing other kids.

the goverment here is actually trying to pass a law like this and in some states it has passed. so if the parents do not reasonable limit the avalability of the weapon to the child they can be held accountable for the kids actions.

[trocks69]

most states use letheal injection now, some still use the chamber and a few use the chair. texas uses letheal injection.

its still a poor connection compareing what is a legal punishment to a criminal done through a court of law. compared to a racist group bent on removing a race or religion because they are not the same color or religious belief as they are.

[CiaranM]

most states use letheal injection now, some still use the chamber and a few use the chair. texas uses letheal injection.

its still a poor connection compareing what is a legal punishment to a criminal done through a court of law. compared to a racist group bent on removing a race or religion because they are not the same color or religious belief as they are.

geeezzz dude ... u just don't get it do u !!!!

[zeusbheld]

Look...I can put this argument to rest .

My dad gave me his R4 assault rifle . For a time I was legally allowed to own it .Me and an assault rifle .

Still think freedom to own guns is a good idea ?

amen. glad you didnt have one in high school we already got a columbine.

[zeusbheld]

This begs the question, is the domestic situation so bad that people feel forced to pack a gloc on their person?

generally i've avoided this thread like it had herpes, (it might, you never know) but generally i've lived in some pretty crappy neighborhoods in new york city and visited the crappiest, and never felt like i needed a gun. so i don't really buy that people need to defend their homes etc.

my personal opinion is that owning a gun satisfies a psychological need gone haywire, like some sort of (potentially lethal) security blanket. legal or not i've never owned one and shockingly, as obnoxious as i am, i haven't been shot yet.