venus Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 interesting read from the esquire - uk edition. ---------------------------------------------------------------- it wasn't widely reported but when Dolly the sheep- the first mamal cloned from an adult cell- died in 2003. she was listening to Barry White's 1974. smash album "cant get enough" and pregnant by a bolivian alpaca doing a long stretch at edinburgh's royal zoo for running concaine. sure, the vets gave her the lethal injection, but the real cause of death was a broken heart. now, if a freaking cloned sheep has such a vast spirit. you can bet that a cloned human would be imbued with the same immaterial presence that binds us all. even antonin scalia. to the godhead. but dont just take af's word for it. c. ben michell, director of the center for bioethics and human dignity, says "the answer is in the question itself. a cloned human being would in fact be a person and would therefore be ensouled. to be human is to be a person is to be a soul" ( aha.. i like that :roll: ) this is neither an argument in favour of human clonning nor the final answer to various theological questions about the existence or nature of a human soul. topics best left to mouthbreathing pentecostals, infallible men in funny hats, and mitch albom. its simply to say, as arthur caplan, chairman of the department of medical ethics at the university of pennsylvania does. "if humans have souls. then clones will have them. too" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- anyway, i personally wonder that .. "if the clone will think and decide about things as the same as the mould does" ? if so, then it will be very easy and predicable to know what the clone thinks and decides.... hmmm cant be good. :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekka Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Cloning does make the physical appearance identical. However it can't be said that they would have the same intelligence or emotions. The brain cannot be replicated to that degree. Sure the clone would have a brain, but the clone would have to develop it's own brain in regard to intellect & emotions That's only my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie36 Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 If we look at ourselves we consist of our body and our 'conscience' - that bit of us that is somewhere near our eyes and brain that is 'I'. Science has progressed enormously but I dont think that they are anywhere close to taking that 'I' and supplanting it to another body. Cloning a person which will be possible before the next 50 years will not be the same as cloning someones conscious. That - in my view (considering the mathematics) is impossible..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Cloning does make the physical appearance identical. However it can't be said that they would have the same intelligence or emotions. The brain cannot be replicatedto that degree. Sure the clone would have a brain, but the clone would have to develop it's own brain in regard to intellect & emotions That's only my opinion. the brain *can* be replicated. exactly. in a way. but your'e right in a way too. the "mind" however... different story. the brain as it develops forms connections between neurons and patterns of connections between them etc. these increase in number and complexity as the brain develops. these pathways, formed by both nature and nurture, are the source of our "minds." personality, etc. intelliigence appears to be largely genetic but "smarts" factors in experience, although testable intelligence, like muscle strength can be improved with exercise. what, then, would a genetically-identical individual--a clone--be like compared to the "original"? we've already done this experiment. we got 'em. they're called "identical twins." you get an idea of how similar and different a clone would be when you see identical twins who grew up apart. it's interesting to watch if you can keep track of which one is which. as to whether the cloned person has a "soul" a) do identical twins share one soul? why are you so sure that *anyone* has a soul? or that you (or anyone) know what a soul is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Quote Zeus why are you so sure that *anyone* has a soul? or that you (or anyone) know what a soul is? Back to top James Brown had a soul 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farang_subson Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Weird...it's the 21st century and a good chunk of humanity still reckons a soul inserts itself into the womb after conception. Presumably, these souls start salivating as soon as the couple starts removing their clothes. Maybe it's a competitive situation...it could be like a professional wrestling event. Anyway, a clone would be expected to resemble the original in the same way that identical twins resemble each other. But identical twins aren't perfectly identical for a number of reasons. 1) Epigenetics. The DNA of the twins isn't necessarily methylated or acetylated in the same way (I know that doesn't mean anything to most readers...you might imagine two identical books, but different people have highlighted or blotted-out different sentences). 2) X chromosome inactivation. With women, one X chromosome gets pretty much turned off. Which one? It appears to be random. 3) Random events. You've got trillions of brain cells, but only a few thousand genes to tell those cells what to do. Your brain structure isn't perfectly mapped out in your DNA...individual neurons get hooked up in arbitrary ways. I'm probably forgetting some other reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranM Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 why are you so sure that *anyone* has a soul? or that you (or anyone) know what a soul is? Sole pan fried in a little lemon butter is quite tasty ... and definitely exists !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Sassy Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Would it be eligible for a duplicate profile? Here on TF or in real life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzy Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 One of the problem (amongst many) with human clones, is that they would be born knowing that someone literally programmed their existence. Of course genetics doesn?t decide everything, life?s learned experiences play an important part too. But imagine, knowing already many of your personal characteristics & future potentials at birth?freaky :shock: ? But human reproductive cloning being banned in a majority of country, we shouldn?t have to worry about that for a few years? Animal cloning is another matter. Cloning your favorite house pet is becoming a trend in the US. People spend thousands of dollars to get their pet?s DNA stored in the hope that when the technology becomes sufficiently developed they will be able to clone them? Anybody want their cat or dog cloned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farang_subson Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 they would be born knowing that someone literally programmed their existence Well, it's not like somebody chooses and rearranges various characteristics (e.g. eye color). Not yet, anyway. You'd just be copying 3,000,000,000 base pairs exactly. Like identical twins. imagine, knowing already many of your personal characteristics & future potentials at birth?freaky Tall parents tend to have tall children. Smart parents usually have smart children. Etc., etc. That's not so freaky, is it? Practically speaking, these philosophical issues have little effect on day to day living. I mean, identical twins don't have massive existential crises that you don't see elsewhere. Adoptive children don't freak out when they learn the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzy Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Well, it's not like somebody chooses and rearranges various characteristics (e.g. eye color). Not yet, anyway. I beg to differ... similar results are already sought via gene therapy. There is no reason why cloning wouldn't also be used for that purpose. I'm not saying it will work or that it is the only objective of human cloning but it is definitly an issue worth considering... (chek out http://www.humgen.umontreal.ca/int/ it's a great academic website on these issues) And although it's a little off the topic, it is a known fact that many adoptive children do have a hard time when they "learn the truth". One of my best friends was adpoted and the first time he met his biological family was the begining of the end for him...he never got over it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farang_subson Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 I beg to differ... similar results are already sought via gene therapy. Yeah, that's called "gene therapy", not "cloning". You insert an individual gene into a cell, as opposed to copying 20,000 of them base pair per base pair. I'm adopted myself, so I'm aware of the issues. Most adoptees don't have huge issues. Most aren't even motivated to find their biological parents. In my own case, my biological parents looked me up...it was a weird situation when we met, cuz they had all sorts of memories regarding me (9 months in the womb), whereas I had none of that baggage. It did make for good ammunition when I got pissed off at my adoptive parents, though ("you $%$#....I wish you never adopted me!") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyphil247 Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Agree that you cannot replicate a brain / soul Maybe physically you can , but it all ends at birth . The brain is constantly changing / developing , and a lot of it would depend on the environment. A great question, thinking about souls . Would they be like a robot ??? or have that special characteristic of being human ??? I think the closer we get to cloning humans , then we are able to learn so much about religion , and so many other things in life . I say why not ??? , we have the technology , lets use it . We could make a dream team in so many sports ??? Ok , gonna start a CLONE DREAM FOOTBALL TEAM capatain is PELE and goal keeper is ROSSI in a thread soon to be released in TF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny_blueeyes Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Ummmmmm a cloned human is just a human with identical DNA to an existing human.....so would be no more alike than identical twins are, who also share identical DNA's. So if you beleive that ANY human being has a soul, and you beleive that identical twins each have their own seperate souls (ie don't "share" a soul) than similarly the cloned human and the resulting clone would each have their own souls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortyg Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Watch Bladerunner it has all the answers lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Watch Bladerunner it has all the answers lol nah blade runner was robots. the flying cars were cool though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venus Posted March 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Forget about the soul, the criteria should be intelligence, if the original is as thick as two short planks why the hell would you want to make another one? good point. then again, if everyone has the same level of intelligence. where is the fun ? reminds me of a film called "gottaca" :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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