EQUALITY.... APPARENTLY

[zeusbheld]

My disdain for conservatives and the Christian rights is only slightly less than that displayed here for Liberals. Christians get on my nerves. It's just that no one on here defends them. And I don't see them as a threat. They're laughable to me.

Trust me when I say that this Christian is laughing at you

Merry Xmas by the way, hope you enjoy your Christmas Eve with so many people signing up to your event, looks like it'll be standing room only ( i.e in the cubicle )

well Phil you're an extremist Christian, but extremist as in extremely australian...

[zeusbheld]

...

Your opinionation is something you should be hiding, not broadcasting to all and sundry..

if people followed that rule all internet forums would die. quickly.

[Mazzy]

...

Your opinionation is something you should be hiding, not broadcasting to all and sundry..

if people followed that rule all internet forums would die. quickly.

What's an opinionation? :?

[grezzzy_greer]

My disdain for conservatives and the Christian rights is only slightly less than that displayed here for Liberals. Christians get on my nerves. It's just that no one on here defends them. And I don't see them as a threat. They're laughable to me.

Religion in general gets on my nerves.

Broken record speaks: "Read God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens"...also a bunch of others who point out the poison that is religion.

[grezzzy_greer]

..........convert to Wicca!! We get to dance around naked at rituals and drink mushroom ale!!!

Bleargh! "Mushroom Ale"???

....and I'm not real sure about watching you dance around naked either...especially in the Scottish winter ("Whats that wee blue thing?"...)

[Stramash]

..........convert to Wicca!! We get to dance around naked at rituals and drink mushroom ale!!!

Bleargh! "Mushroom Ale"???

....and I'm not real sure about watching you dance around naked either...especially in the Scottish winter ("Whats that wee blue thing?"...)

Don't worry Grez, wasn't inviting you!! And the naked rituals tend to be midsummer only!! A Scottish winter is no time to go naked unless in the safety and warmth of your own house with the heating up full!!

The mushroom ale usually tends to be a form of mead, so has honey in it which offsets the earthiness of the mushrooms!!

[zeusbheld]

...

Your opinionation is something you should be hiding, not broadcasting to all and sundry..

if people followed that rule all internet forums would die. quickly.

What's an opinionation? :?

what nation isn't?

[Stramash]

MR. HARRY BLACKITT: Look at them, bloody Catholics, filling the bloody world up with bloody people they can't afford to bloody feed.

MRS. BLACKITT: What are we dear?

MR. BLACKITT: Protestant, and fiercely proud of it.

MRS. BLACKITT: Hmm. Well, why do they have so many children?

MR. BLACKITT: Because... every time they have sexual intercourse, they have to have a baby.

MRS. BLACKITT: But it's the same with us, Harry.

MR. BLACKITT: What do you mean?

MRS. BLACKITT: Well, I mean, we've got two children, and we've had sexual intercourse twice.

MR. BLACKITT: That's not the point. We could have it any time we wanted.

MRS. BLACKITT: Really?

MR. BLACKITT: Oh, yes, and, what's more, because we don't believe in all that Papist claptrap, we can take precautions.

MRS. BLACKITT: What, you mean... lock the door?

MR. BLACKITT: No, no. I mean, because we are members of the Protestant Reformed Church, which successfully challenged the autocratic power of the Papacy in the mid- sixteenth century, we can wear little rubber devices to prevent issue.

MRS. BLACKITT: What d'you mean?

MR. BLACKITT: I could, if I wanted, have sexual intercourse with you,...

MRS. BLACKITT: Oh, yes, Harry.

MR. BLACKITT: ...and, by wearing a rubber sheath over my old feller, I could insure... that, when I came off, you would not be impregnated.

MRS. BLACKITT: Ooh!

MR. BLACKITT: That's what being a Protestant's all about. That's why it's the church for me. That's why it's the church for anyone who respects the individual and the individual's right to decide for him or herself. When Martin Luther nailed his protest up to the church door in fifteen- seventeen, he may not have realised the full significance of what he was doing, but four hundred years later, thanks to him, my dear, I can wear whatever I want on my John Thomas,... [sniff] ...and, Protestantism doesn't stop at the simple condom! Oh, no! I can wear French Ticklers if I want.

MRS. BLACKITT: You what?

MR. BLACKITT: French Ticklers. Black Mambos. Crocodile Ribs. Sheaths that are designed not only to protect, but also to enhance the stimulation of sexual congress.

MRS. BLACKITT: Have you got one?

MR. BLACKITT: Have I got one? Uh, well, no, but I can go down the road any time I want and walk into Harry's and hold my head up high and say in a loud, steady voice, 'Harry, I want you to sell me a condom. In fact, today, I think I'll have a French Tickler, for I am a Protestant.'

MRS. BLACKITT: Well, why don't you?

MR. BLACKITT: But they-- Well, they cannot, 'cause their church never made the great leap out of the Middle Ages and the domination of alien episcopal supremacy.

[drlovelife8]

9. Husbands are a degree above their wives.

The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:

. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A?La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur?an, vol. 1, p. 165)

Now, Quran does not say that, what you are doing is quoting from explanation book, not from Quaran. This is the verse:

[2:229] And the divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the Last Day; and their husbands have the greater right to take them back during that period, provided they desire reconciliation. And they (the women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in equity; but men have a degree of advantage above them. And Allah is Mighty and Wise.

This talks about similar things as were in Bible, conditions of divorce. And do you see, it says women have similar rights. But in the end, man, like in Bible, is the head of the household. Actually similar to many non-muslim and non-judeao-christian societies.

8. A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female.

The Quran in Sura 4:11 says:

The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)

4:12] Allah commands you concerning your children; a male shall have as much as the share of two females; but if their be females only, numbering more than two, then they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased leave; and if there be one, she shall have half. And his parents each of them a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a child, but if he have no child and his parents be his heirs, then his mother shall have a third; and if he has brothers and sisters, then his mother shall have a sixth, after the payment of any bequests he may have bequeathed or of debts. Your fathers and your children; you know not which of them is more beneficent to you. This fixing of portions is from Allah. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.

Typical to societies that were based on traveling from place to place and in general farming. Men are the continuing of the family, the money stays that way "in the family" when women marry to other men. Hence the keeping of money "in the family" by allocating most valuables to the male heirs. Besides, after all, it could be that women were getting nothing but instead they got some part.

7. A woman?s testimony counts half of a man?s testimony.

The Quran in Sura 2:282 says:

And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205).

This was indeed interesting view on seeing women.

5. Slave?girls are sexual property for their male owners.

The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:

And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands [as prisoners of war] . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319).

That is misrepresentation of that part of the Quran. It deals with the matters of marriage, ownership of the women. And what it actually says is this:

"--, marrying them properly and not committing fornication. And for the benefit you receive from them, give them their dowries, as fixed, and there is no blame on you what you do by mutual agreement after the fixing of the dowry. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, Wise."

You are supposed to marry them properly. Not use them as sex slaves. So you left out the next sentence which cleared out the bigger picture.

4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:3 says:

...But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305)

And so? I would like to point out that it is only if the man has the means to provide for all those women. It is not like every man goes around marrying that many.

3. A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives.

The Quran in Sura 4:129 says:

It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, [in order to satisfy the dictates of Divine Law] do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 381)

Again, it would be fruitful to quote more around the said verse:

"[4:129] And if a women fears ill treatment or indifference from her husband, it shall be no sin that they be suitably reconciled to each other; and reconciliation is best. And people are prone to covetousness. And if you do good and are righteous, surely Allah is Aware of what you do.

[4:130] And you cannot keep perfect balance between wives, however much you may desire it. But incline not wholly to one so that you leave the other like a thing suspended. And if you are reconciled and act righteously, surely Allah is Most Forgiving, and Merciful."

It says here for example that if woman fears ill treatment, there should be reconciliation. And that is the BEST. NOW if your wifes actually get into fights between each others, that is how I would read this, then let there be decision who shall go. But again, reconciliation much happen, because also Allah is forgiving and merciful. So it is not just "dump and leave them" but first reconciliation.

Also sure 65:1,2 speaks about how in case of divorce there is waiting period when the woman is allowed to live in the house, not chased away unless she is doing something indecent. In this way both can try to solve their issues and get back together.

2. Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded).

The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)

It would be again useful to investigate other translations too:

[4:35] Men are guardians over women because Allah has made some of them excel others, and because men spend on them of their wealth. So virtuous women are obedient, and guard the secrets of their husbands with Allah's protection. And as for those on whose part you fear disobedience, admonish them and keep away from them in their beds and chastise them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely, Allah is High and Great.

[4:36] And if you fear a breach between them, then appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they (the arbiters) desire reconciliation, Allah will effect it between them. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

Here first of all: men are guardians of women. And that Allah has made women excel. And men spend a lot of money on the family, (compare this to the studies that show actually about the pay gap between sexes that mens income is subventing womens income so that actually women have equal or higher incomes in families than the men=.

In this translation it is clear that the family should be peaceful and support each others.

1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls.

The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:

65:1 O Prophet, when you [and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting?period and count the waiting?period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)

As said earlier, verse 1 is quite nice as it shows how Allah wants the husband and wife to solve their issues so that woman is not without home during this "prescribed waiting period".

Is this really about prepub girls? I mean the one part there says "same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet". Other parts give waiting period because if woman is missing her periods she might be pregnant and that might change the situation. But that "not menstruated as yet" part is indeed interesting. If only I was not going to bed now, I could google a little bit of how that verse is understood.

This is what I found concerning menstruation, exactly what I thought also:

"All the standard translations refer only to whether the wife is menstruating or not, without any age implication. Muhammad Asad?s translation reads: ?Now for such of your women as are beyond the age of monthly courses, as well as for such as do not have any courses, their waiting period ? if you have any doubt about it ? shall be three months? (ya?isna min al mahidi min nisa?ikum in irtabtum). The scholars consider that this is a generic reference to any physiological impediment, whether temporary or permanent. "

Ok, I did some search. What translation is used here is highly problematic translation by Maulana Maududi, head of the fundamentalist movement in Pakistan. Seems that many things here are disputed by muslim scholars who have better understanding of the context and the context of the time when these were written. This relates to for example for the "women as witnesses" part which I quote is explained:

"omen can testify as equals of men in all matters except in commercial transactions. In commercial matters at the time, women were generally less knowledgeable than men, though the Prophet?s only wife until her death after fifteen years of marriage, Khadija, was a superior business woman. Since the general culture at the time tended to restrict women?s roles in business, they were protected from the burden of testifying in such unfamiliar situations by exempting them from responsibility as a sole witness. In accordance with the fundamental principle of Islamic normative law that rules apply only to fulfill their higher purpose, this need for protection and the provision for it no longer apply in the modern world."

I have used the following online Quran:

http://www.alislam.org/quran/

The translation is quite modern language and understandable.

I hope this opens up things to some who are ready to nitpick and quote out of context things from Quran and Bible.

You appear to be quoting different suras (can sura be plural?)

[drlovelife8]

I do recall a time when people could stand up and be counted in saying what was right or wrong.

Now PCism has stopped this and in some cases rightly so as it allowed predigest to grow.

In this lovely country we on this forum like to call home exploitation of women is rife.

Are we going to tolerate that too just to keep the peace or are we gonna stand up and say whats wrong with it.

Until you have seen with your own eyes the effect SOME laws from certain holy books have had and continue having, it's hard to grasp.

I hope greatly that certain countries step up and be counted as leaders in developing a certain new age version of a certain religion. The last true religion that God wants.... according to its rules.

All religions have been guilty of this, most have tried to develop past it. One in particular wishes to make it stronger in its most powerful and financially superior nations.

Yes, one persons wrong is another persons right.

As I feel Gary Glitter would endorse.

[Mazzy]

I gonna need to read this.... There is a chance that I may convert...

To what? Boring forum threads on over discussed topics? 8)

Seriously, this epidemy of "religious war" forums on TF is getting a bit repetitive.

[Mazzy]

I gonna need to read this.... There is a chance that I may convert...

To what? Boring forum threads on over discussed topics? 8)

Seriously, this epidemy of "religious war" forums on TF is getting a bit repetitive.

I don't get this.

When did it become mandatory to read each and every thread.

The simple answer is to not read it or comment on it if you find it passe or blase or boring or redundant, etc and so forth and so on... :wink:

I find the constant cuts on America to be "a bit repetitive." The constant mentions of Bush. The constant cuts on Christians.

All of those things seem to be a bit repetitive to me as well. Unfortunately, they can come in the middle of a simple "what time is it?" thread.

I'm actually not taking any particular side in this debate. Simply pointing out that the various threads on this topic have become repetitive (something I think we can both agree on).

Usually one repetitive argument (eg. Iran/Irak is a terrorist country) will likely generate a repetitive counter-argument (US is a terrorist country too), etc. This is because from my experience on the site, people are rarely swayed by a radically different point of view from their own, no matter how convincing. So people just keep on posting the same things (a little longer, more raffined or more aggressive)... We are so strongly defined by our culture that after a certain age, We can rarely change our mind on fundamental topics.

You are right, I'm not forced to read these comments. But I see nothing wrong with pointing out the need for novel discussion topics on the site.

[drlovelife8]

I gonna need to read this.... There is a chance that I may convert...

To what? Boring forum threads on over discussed topics? 8)

Seriously, this epidemy of "religious war" forums on TF is getting a bit repetitive.

I don't get this.

When did it become mandatory to read each and every thread.

The simple answer is to not read it or comment on it if you find it passe or blase or boring or redundant, etc and so forth and so on... :wink:

I find the constant cuts on America to be "a bit repetitive." The constant mentions of Bush. The constant cuts on Christians.

All of those things seem to be a bit repetitive to me as well. Unfortunately, they can come in the middle of a simple "what time is it?" thread.

I'm actually not taking any particular side in this debate. Simply pointing out that the various threads on this topic have become repetitive (something I think we can both agree on).

Usually one repetitive argument (eg. Iran/Irak is a terrorist country) will likely generate a repetitive counter-argument (US is a terrorist country too), etc. This is because from my experience on the site, people are rarely swayed by a radically different point of view from their own, no matter how convincing. So people just keep on posting the same things (a little longer, more raffined or more aggressive)... We are so strongly defined by our culture that after a certain age, We can rarely change our mind on fundamental topics.

You are right, I'm not forced to read these comments. But I see nothing wrong with pointing out the need for novel discussion topics on the site.

Judging by the amout of traffic on them I suggest they are wanted or at least lots of people have wanted to discuss them but been afraid to.

If you want repetative search for "why thai girls lie" or bar girl related topics or just search P'ants threads

[zeusbheld]

Judging by the amout of traffic on them I suggest they are wanted or at least lots of people have wanted to discuss them but been afraid to.

If you want repetative search for "why thai girls lie" or bar girl related topics or just search P'ants threads

these religion threads don't get nearly as much traffic as bar girl related topics. they are every bit as repetitive and share an information density of 0.000000001 parts per million, however. at least the politics-oriented threads occasionally provoke people into posting actual facts now and then, but there is no topic on the planet where people's opinions are more immune to facts than religion. that's why these threads bore me as much as the usual "shaved or unshaved" crap.