DJTX Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 A true atheist would say god does not exist. Not that god probably does not exist Probably being the clue :roll: A big difference between saying there is no god, and there isn't that much doubt that there is no god. One is certain the other leaves room for possiblity. So I guess I've left you an out :wink: what a load of f**king bollocks !!! we can NOT say god does NOT exist, because we can't prove it. but we can say we believe god doesn't exist !!! see unlike god botherers we like to deal in stuff called facts and evidence and proof !! but u guys just counter all that with the "faith" bullshit !!! I never said you could not (guess you haven't been reading). I'll try agin - a true athiest would say "god does not exist", not "god probably does not exist". And, who are "u guys" and when have you read any "faith bullshit" from me? My position iis I don't know is god exists or not. aka - agnostic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJTX Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 since when is it up to *you* to decide who is and isn't a "true" atheist? especially since you can't even get weakiepedia to agree with you: Atheism is either the belief that no deity exists, the rejection of the belief that at least one deity exists, or simply the absence of this belief do you get it yet? probably not. You seem to be the only one between us who doesn't understand the difference between something that does not exist and something that probably does not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 .... I'll try agin - a true athiest would say "god does not exist", not "god probably does not exist". again: your definition of "true atheist" is basically defining it as a question of faith, whereas the majority of atheists i've met (or read) merely claim that the chances of God existing are so low that they don't find the question worth considering when deciding how to live. And, who are "u guys" and when have you read any "faith bullshit" from me? My position iis I don't know is god exists or not. aka - agnostic Ciaran's lost the plot; you're not part of the "you guys" he's referring to. and an atheist's position would be "i don't know if God exists or not, but the existence of God is really, really improbable, so i do not have (or in some cases, do not even approve of) religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 since when is it up to *you* to decide who is and isn't a "true" atheist? especially since you can't even get weakiepedia to agree with you: Atheism is either the belief that no deity exists, the rejection of the belief that at least one deity exists, or simply the absence of this belief do you get it yet? probably not. You seem to be the only one between us who doesn't understand the difference between something that does not exist and something that probably does not exist. you seem to be stubbornly clinging to a semantic game, and appointing yourself the aribiter of who is or is not a true atheist. atheists don't have to be certain God doesn't exist, just be confident beyond a reasonable doubt. probably. you don't have to believe in certainty to be an atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranM Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 A true atheist would say god does not exist. Not that god probably does not exist Probably being the clue :roll: A big difference between saying there is no god, and there isn't that much doubt that there is no god. One is certain the other leaves room for possiblity. So I guess I've left you an out :wink: what a load of f**king bollocks !!! we can NOT say god does NOT exist, because we can't prove it. but we can say we believe god doesn't exist !!! see unlike god botherers we like to deal in stuff called facts and evidence and proof !! but u guys just counter all that with the "faith" bullshit !!! I never said you could not (guess you haven't been reading). I'll try agin - a true athiest would say "god does not exist", not "god probably does not exist". And, who are "u guys" and when have you read any "faith bullshit" from me? My position iis I don't know is god exists or not. aka - agnostic can u read ?? i didn't say "god probably does not exist". but let's not allow facts to detract from ur arguement !!! how do U know what a "true atheist" would say ?? r the god botherers now gonna start defining what a "true atheist' is ?? "u guys" r the god botherers .... if u r not one then it does not apply to u !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJTX Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 since when is it up to *you* to decide who is and isn't a "true" atheist? especially since you can't even get weakiepedia to agree with you: Atheism is either the belief that no deity exists, the rejection of the belief that at least one deity exists, or simply the absence of this belief do you get it yet? probably not. You seem to be the only one between us who doesn't understand the difference between something that does not exist and something that probably does not exist. you seem to be stubbornly clinging to a semantic game, and appointing yourself the aribiter of who is or is not a true atheist. atheists don't have to be certain God doesn't exist, just be confident beyond a reasonable doubt. probably. you don't have to believe in certainty to be an atheist. I'm not trying to arbitrate anything. Stubborn? maybe. But I still believe a true atheist would say god does not exist. Not 'probably'. So is our dispute over 'atheism' or 'probably' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farang_subson Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 YOU can not prove the existence of a god one way or the other If God appears, 5 miles high, berobed, surrounded by a retinue of cherubs, sandals tramping down the streets of Bangkok, I'd say his existence is pretty much proved. Like Zeus says, the self-styled atheists I know don't claim that they can prove this or that god doesn't exist. That's not a cowardly "out" any more than it's cowardly "out" to live your life as if fairies don't exist. I question the whole notion that the ultimate spiritual being, if he exists, would give a crap whether folks "believe in" him. He might even reserve a special place in heaven for atheists, artists, scientists, etc., who at least make his existence a bit more interesting. Hell would be reserved for insurance agents, day traders, preachers, politicians, and assorted herd-followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranM Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 I'm not trying to arbitrate anything. Stubborn? maybe. But I still believe a true atheist would say god does not exist. Not 'probably'. So is our dispute over 'atheism' or 'probably' stubborn ? or stupid ?? or pedantic ?? why r u trying to force ur idea of what an atheist should or should not say ?? who exactly r U say what a "true atheist" is or what they should believe ?? i'd say there's probably just as many degrees of atheism as there r beliefs in god .... it's not all black and white !! but then that requires too much thought for some ppl !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJTX Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 i'd say there's probably just as many degrees of atheism as there r beliefs in god .... it's not all black and white !! but then that requires too much thought for some ppl !! So you're saying there are different kinds of atheist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranM Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 i'd say there's probably just as many degrees of atheism as there r beliefs in god .... it's not all black and white !! but then that requires too much thought for some ppl !! So you're saying there are different kinds of atheist? can u read ?? can u understand ?? degrees !!! ranging from .... "i don't believe, but it doesn't really bother me to .... i don't believe and by the time i'm finished nobody else will either !!" next time i'll draw pictures for U !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin_2 Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 i'd say there's probably just as many degrees of atheism as there r beliefs in god .... it's not all black and white !! but then that requires too much thought for some ppl !! So you're saying there are different kinds of atheist? Definitely...just there are different types of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. I don't look at it as there are only believers and non-believers. I doubt that everyone who goes to church each Sunday really believes 100% that there is a God. Along the same lines, there are skeptical Atheists as well. I consider myself an Atheist, but could there be a God? Yeah, *could* be. Am I going to go to every Theist out there and shove my Atheist rhetoric down their throats as if it is the rule of law? No, because I don't believe in it as much, nor care as much as others do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranM Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 I consider myself an Atheist, but could there be a God? Yeah, *could* be. Am I going to go to every Theist out there and shove my Atheist rhetoric down their throats as if it is the rule of law? No, because I don't believe in it as much, nor care as much as others do. if i was gonna be a nice atheist .... that's what i would have said !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterMatlock Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 i'd say there's probably just as many degrees of atheism as there r beliefs in god .... it's not all black and white !! but then that requires too much thought for some ppl !! So you're saying there are different kinds of atheist? can u read ?? can u understand ?? degrees !!! ranging from .... "i don't believe, but it doesn't really bother me to .... i don't believe and by the time i'm finished nobody else will either !!" next time i'll draw pictures for U !!! Make sure they're drawn in crayon for twinkletoes here... I wouldn't have figured it would be difficult for someone to realize that not all atheists' beliefs fit neatly into pre-determined definitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJTX Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 i'd say there's probably just as many degrees of atheism as there r beliefs in god .... it's not all black and white !! but then that requires too much thought for some ppl !! So you're saying there are different kinds of atheist? can u read ?? can u understand ?? degrees !!! ranging from .... "i don't believe, but it doesn't really bother me to .... i don't believe and by the time i'm finished nobody else will either !!" next time i'll draw pictures for U !!! Make sure they're drawn in crayon for twinkletoes here... I wouldn't have figured it would be difficult for someone to realize that not all atheists' beliefs fit neatly into pre-determined definitions. So exactly what does an athiest believe other than there is no god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin_2 Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 i'd say there's probably just as many degrees of atheism as there r beliefs in god .... it's not all black and white !! but then that requires too much thought for some ppl !! So you're saying there are different kinds of atheist? can u read ?? can u understand ?? degrees !!! ranging from .... "i don't believe, but it doesn't really bother me to .... i don't believe and by the time i'm finished nobody else will either !!" next time i'll draw pictures for U !!! Make sure they're drawn in crayon for twinkletoes here... I wouldn't have figured it would be difficult for someone to realize that not all atheists' beliefs fit neatly into pre-determined definitions. So exactly what does an athiest believe other than there is no god? I didn't really want to respond to this with an answer as that hasn't worked up until now. I will try a different approach: Does every person who calls themselves a Catholic really believe that there is a God sitting in the clouds watching their every move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 YOU can not prove the existence of a god one way or the otherIf God appears, 5 miles high, berobed, surrounded by a retinue of cherubs, sandals tramping down the streets of Bangkok, I'd say his existence is pretty much proved. yeh i missed that one. the CORRECT sentence should read "YOU cannot prove the LACK OF existence of a god one way or the other." you *could* prove the existence if you had solid evidence that could not be explained any other way, such as the big sandaled guy described above. the "intelligent design" arguments, however, only prove that people *want* to believe in God, not that He exists. I question the whole notion that the ultimate spiritual being, if he exists, would give a crap whether folks "believe in" him. He might even reserve a special place in heaven for atheists, artists, scientists, etc., who at least make his existence a bit more interesting. Hell would be reserved for insurance agents, day traders, preachers, politicians, and assorted herd-followers. herd followers? c'mon, not ALL Manchester United fans are bad. i suppose that the odds are such that if we throw away the one or two who aren't bad, it'd still be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJTX Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Does every person who calls themselves a Catholic really believe that there is a God sitting in the clouds watching their every move? Why don't you ask the question a bit different? Does every Catholic believe there is a God? Does every Jew believe there is a God. Does every Muslim believe there is a God. Answer is yes. Does every athiest believe there is no god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 i'd say there's probably just as many degrees of atheism as there r beliefs in god .... it's not all black and white !! but then that requires too much thought for some ppl !! So you're saying there are different kinds of atheist? can u read ?? can u understand ?? degrees !!! ranging from .... "i don't believe, but it doesn't really bother me to .... i don't believe and by the time i'm finished nobody else will either !!" next time i'll draw pictures for U !!! Make sure they're drawn in crayon for twinkletoes here... I wouldn't have figured it would be difficult for someone to realize that not all atheists' beliefs fit neatly into pre-determined definitions. So exactly what does an athiest believe other than there is no god? yes an atheist believes there is no God. but why do you insist they have to be CERTAIN there is no God? you're asking the wrong question. an atheist believes there is no God or gods. that's a given; yet it in no way supports your assertion that they're not atheists unless they're certain. why should one have to be absolutely certain there are no gods in order to "qualify" as an atheist? i expect the vast majority of atheists don't believe certainty is even possible. if they are *rational* atheists, they just believe that God or gods are so unlikely that they don't believe it. ffs even murder cases only need to be proven "beyond reasonable doubt," not with absolute certainty. yet, you're saying someone who believes that there isn't a God, but doesn't believe the absence of God can be proven with certainty, isn't an atheist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 4 consecutive posts from Ciaran without a **** to be seen... maybe there is a god/goddess :twisted: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJTX Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 you're asking the wrong question. an atheist believes there is no God or gods. that's a given; yet it in no way supports your assertion that they're not atheists unless they're certain. I never said that they are not atheist. I said that nobody can prove the existence of god(s) one way or the other. I also said that I believe an atheist would say that there is no god(s) - not that there probably is no god. Proving it versus believing it are obviously two different things. If I said a Christian would say there is a God - would you debate that? I don't know too many Christians/Jews/Muslims who say 'there probably si a God'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farang_subson Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 If I said a Christian would say there is a God - would you debate that? I don't know too many Christians/Jews/Muslims who say 'there probably si a God'. No, but there are many who live their lives as if there's no god. That makes them dishonest atheists, in a sense. There are also plenty of Christians and Jews who have extremely nebulous notions of god (e.g. "He's everything and nothing"), which seems like a small step from atheism. Atheism is not an elaborated belief system, per se. I mean, if you don't believe in fairies, does that color your existence? Do you recite, "I don't believe in fairies" 108 times before you go to sleep? No. You just go on with life. Pick up Dawkin's "God Delusion". Geek that he is, he constructs 1-7 scale of belief. "1" would be "I can prove the existence of God" and "7" would mean "I can prove that god doesn't exist". 6 is "I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there." Anyway, if you wish to bash folks over the head with the dictionary, have at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 you're asking the wrong question. an atheist believes there is no God or gods. that's a given; yet it in no way supports your assertion that they're not atheists unless they're certain. I never said that they are not atheist. I said that nobody can prove the existence of god(s) one way or the other. nobody can disprove the existence of God, but the existence of God CAN be proved, at least in principle. all you'd need is the right, verifiable, sharable, evidence. I also said that I believe an atheist would say that there is no god(s) - not that there probably is no god. Proving it versus believing it are obviously two different things. If I said a Christian would say there is a God - would you debate that? I don't know too many Christians/Jews/Muslims who say 'there probably si a God'. see, there's a principle you're fundamentally missing when you think about how a lot of atheists, including some famous ones, decide what they believe in general.. faith is inherently beyond reason and by its very nature involves believing in something regardless of evidence. thus one can feel 100 percent certain. many people end up being atheists because they don't believe anything based on faith (or at least don't do so knowingly). many (but obviously not all) atheists don't believe in God because they choose to believe only things for which there are evidence. knowledge is always provisional if you approach belief this way. an hypothesis is accepted as true (and thereby becomes a "theory" in the scientific sense) because a) evidence supports it, there aren't any other explanations that fit the evidence as well, c) it is inherently falsifiable (evidence could prove it wrong) d) every conceivable rigorous attempt to falsify the statement has been made, and failed to falsify it. this means that NO truth--or theory--based on evidence and reason rather than faith can ever be more than provisional. an atheist of this type merely believes there is no God because God as a hypothesis is not needed to explain anything, and there is no solid evidence. if one's disbelief is God is based in reason, then it is never more than some variety of "probably." nor are any of such a person's other beliefs, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJTX Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 but the existence of God CAN be proved... Now that comment has to spark a debate :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 but the existence of God CAN be proved... Now that comment has to spark a debate :wink: it shouldn't, unless you take out the "at least in principle" part. wait-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 but the existence of God CAN be proved... Now that comment has to spark a debate :wink: it shouldn't, unless you take out the "at least in principle" part. wait-- or if you take out the 'all you'd need is the right, verifiable, sharable, evidence.' part... Damn - he beat us to it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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