Thais hold more migrants amid row

[MisterMatlock]

It's very easy to say 'fighht for you freedom or future" becase all human history is about war and killing another.

Why dont we learn from the past and be more civilised (as we always said about ourselves). Do all people from Burma have to stay and are kill every day (by gun, straving, foced llabor) while waiting for better life.

If Thai officerreally thinking about national security i think foriegners in Pattaya, Phuket, Bkk are more dangerous than those people from Burma.

people have two choices either they sacrifice a bit for their own dignity and freedom, or stay enslaved under a dictator or somewhere in other foreign country,

now i understands why Joseph Stalin was gunning down the retreating soviet soldiers from the front line because otherwise the Nazi has won and nobody could stop them, yes millions have died in Stalingrad but the result was wonderful the Nazi couldn't enslave them according to their original plan.

few years ago when i was visiting south Korea i asked a Korean man why they were treating the south Asian labor very harsh over there, he told me because they view them as traitors to their own homeland, he explained to me how people in Korea worked day and night during the 1970s 1980s

standing horrible misery that even when he was born he and his dad and mum was sharing small cup of rice and how his father was labor carrying goods from the harbor, south Korea during that time was in the level of poor developing county like Mali, in spite of all that misery no body has left the country they all worked in harmony and solidarity to bring up the country to the current economical level they are now as one of the top 15th richest counties in the world.

the south Koreans encountered the financial crisis of 1997 with great courage, some of them was selling their wife s jewelery just to stay competitive in this world.

leaving the homeland for economical or other reasons is very bad idea indeed, take a look at the Philippines for example, they are much poorer of Thailand inspire of an excellent educational system, simply because everyone is selfish and thinking of earning higher salary abroad while leaving his country in chaos, the intellectual and brain drain is catastrophic to any developing country, leading to further degradation and deterioration of the country.

there s nothing better then someone living in his own homeland in higher dignity even with small wage, rather then earn the reputation of beggar or slave in someone else s country.

Where do you work? :roll:

[Stramash]

I was not too familiar with the Rohingya people until lately, interesting but sad history as of late.

Thailand (Land of Smiles) has always had a terrible human rights past, and a black one when it comes to refugees and migrants.

strangely enough, I was just reading an article on their plight last week, and then you posted this.

As Bangladesh is one of the poorest countries in the world, and this is the Rohingya's preferred destination, you think something more could be done.

Thailand's record on dealing with refugees is mixed. They have done some terrible things, and some good things too.

Overall, the Rohingya haven't been treated worse than the Karen or the Khmer or most others, so spare us the Muslim victimization whine.

Bangladesh is the nearest exit point from Burma for the Rohingya. But these refugees or migrants were trying to reach Malaysia, which is where many Rohingya try to go.

Lo, am quite surprised at your response here, especially as you make it appear it is a response to my post rather than Beej's (though neither of them actually 'whine' about muslim victimisation; careful mate you are tunring into Jaya)

I at no point singled out Thailand when discusing the Rohingya, and I only briefly mentioned the fact they are Muslim, and that was in relation to the fact that they had hoped that one of their preferred destinations of Bangladesh would have welcomed them more.

[Stramash]

And I can't be bothered replying to a particular idiot who I think Beej is correct about in his suspicions.

I have said it once and I will say it again; you sir, are a fool.

[Stramash]

from bbc.co.uk;

A shocking story is unfolding in Thailand. Migrants and refugees who turn up on its shores have testified that they are being sent back to sea in boats without engines, their hands tied, left to their fate.

Hundreds are thought to have suffered this treatment - among them many Rohingya people of western Burma - and many have died. The BBC's Jonathan Head in Bangkok has been investigating what has been happening.

The 46 Rohingyas who arrived by boat at Phrathong Island on Friday morning may be lucky.

Like the hundreds of other asylum-seekers from this Burmese Muslim minority who have arrived on Thailand's Andaman Sea coast, they have been handed over to the Internal Security Operations Command (ISOC), a military authority set up under the Cold War and still given sweeping powers to protect national security.

That means they disappear into a black hole. No visits from lawyers or refugee advocates. The military can do what it likes with them.

But after the spotlight now being shone onto the treatment of previous Rohingya groups, this one may be handled more leniently.

Overboard

Harsh treatment of asylum-seekers is nothing new in Thailand. But the allegations made by Rohingyas who have drifted hundreds of kilometres to the Andaman Islands and Indonesia's Aceh province are shocking.

According to a local civic group, the Arakan Project, whose staff have done extensive interviews with some of the survivors, they were detained by the Thai security forces in late November and December last year as they arrived by boat.

Instead of being handed over to the police or immigration for processing as illegal immigrants, they were instead taken by military units to an island called Koh Sai Daeng. They were detained there for several days, sleeping out in the open, their hands tied at night.

On 18 December one group of just over 400 was put on a navy boat, which was towing a barge behind it, says Chris Lewa from the Arakan Project.

Their hands were tied. Once out at sea they were ordered to move onto the barge at gunpoint. They refused. The Thai troops then tied the feet of four of them and threw them overboard

The group then moved onto the barge, and the rope was cut, leaving them with food and water for two days.

They drifted for more than 10. According to the testimony she has obtained, Ms Lewa says they sighted land - the Andaman Islands - on around the 12th day.

Fearful that the current would sweep their barge away, many of the exhausted and dehydrated Rohingyas leapt into the sea to try to make it to land.

Fewer than 100 were found on board by the Indian coastguard, although an unknown number was also picked up from the sea or on beaches.

Briefer telephone interviews with survivors by the BBC have confirmed this account. Survivors who reached Aceh have told the local media the same thing.

In all, more than 800 Rohingyas were expelled in this way in December. Hundreds may have died.

Denial

The local commander of ISOC in Ranong, Col Manas Khongpan, has denied these allegations. He told the BBC that illegal immigrants are never held by his troops.

But that contradicts comments the BBC has been given by other military and police officials, who say all Rohingya boat-people are now being handled by ISOC.

Some of those officials, who did not want to be named, confirmed that Rohingyas had indeed been set adrift at sea, with little food and water.

They explained that Rohingyas are seen as a greater security threat than the tens of thousands of other illegal migrants, because they are Muslim, because they tend to arrive in large numbers at one time, and because they are almost exclusively men.

Immigration officials told us there is no evidence to support the allegation made by some in the military that Rohingyas have gone to Thailand's deep south to join the Islamic insurgency there.

The officials have told us that while most of the Rohingya want to go to Malaysia - where there is already a community 20,000 strong and the prospect of well-paid jobs - increasing numbers are staying in Thailand. The official figure last year was 4,886, and the unofficial figure may be much higher.

Military's power

The Thai government has now issued a statement saying it is investigating all the facts surrounding these allegations.

It has promised to re-assess the situation of all illegal immigrants in Thailand, numbering perhaps three or four million, most of them from Burma, and to treat them in accordance with humanitarian principles.

Whether it can truly hold the military to account though is open to doubt. In many areas of Thailand the army operates with little civilian oversight. It has huge secret budgets, and extensive business interests.

The current Democrat-led coalition was stitched together last month thanks to the intervention of the powerful army commander General Anupong Paochinda - he may well resist any calls for his men to be brought to justice over these allegations, as his predecessors have.

But it is also worth remembering that under the most recent constitution the most senior commander of ISOC is, in fact, the Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva.

He has made the rule of law one of the core principles of his administration. Any crimes committed by ISOC personnel, whether against Thais or illegal migrants, will ultimately lie at his door

[Dr_Mike]

I honestly feel very sorry for the Burmese. The world should do something to overturn that ridiculous Burmese government.

Of course Thailand has the right to (and should) protect their shores.

However, it must be a morally just way and without harm to refugees.

But then again, how just has the Burmese been to Thailand?

Has anyone heard of the nine army battle?

Let's hope a solution is found, justice is served and that no innocent person is harmed.

I'm not a politician, and probably should not even comment, but it's simply so sad.

[Stramash]

I honestly feel very sorry for the Burmese. The world should do something to overturn that ridiculous Burmese government.

Of course Thailand has the right to (and should) protect their shores.

However, it must be a morally just way and without harm to refugees.

But then again, how just has the Burmese been to Thailand?

Has anyone heard of the nine army battle?

Let's hope a solution is found, justice is served and that no innocent person is harmed.

I'm not a politician, and probably should not even comment, but it's simply so sad.

What makes this worse Mike, is that the Rohingya are NOT Burmese per se; they are refused citizenship in Burma, cannot own land or businesses, are often imprisoned, beaten and tortured for no other reason than their ethnicity and their religion. So this is perhaps more of a crisis than that facing ordinary Burmese...

[Dr_Mike]

I honestly feel very sorry for the Burmese. The world should do something to overturn that ridiculous Burmese government.

Of course Thailand has the right to (and should) protect their shores.

However, it must be a morally just way and without harm to refugees.

But then again, how just has the Burmese been to Thailand?

Has anyone heard of the nine army battle?

Let's hope a solution is found, justice is served and that no innocent person is harmed.

I'm not a politician, and probably should not even comment, but it's simply so sad.

What makes this worse Mike, is that the Rohingya are NOT Burmese per se; they are refused citizenship in Burma, cannot own land or businesses, are often imprisoned, beaten and tortured for no other reason than their ethnicity and their religion. So this is perhaps more of a crisis than that facing ordinary Burmese...

Then that is even worse, as I say, I am not a politician, but I just can't believe mankind is still so primitive, in regard to the way people are treated all over this planet. I took an oath to serve life, health, humanity and knowledge of such. Yet aren't they the same principles we should all hold dear?

[CessyInBkk]

The two choices in many circumstance in Burma is live or dead and not just for you but your whole family.

Few years ago there was the survey conducted by professor from Chula uni. re what people from Burma who are living in all the 9 refugee camp in Thailand would like for their future. More than half siad they want to go home with only 15 per cent siad they want to resettle to the 3rd country like US or Aus.

The statistic from 2008 reveal that around 13,000 refeguees resttled to the 3rd countries. One reason behide this is the killing/violence in Sept 2007. One of my Karen freind said if the military can kill monks then they can kill everyone.

It's very easy to say 'fighht for you freedom or future" becase all human history is about war and killing another.

Why dont we learn from the past and be more civilised (as we always said about ourselves). Do all people from Burma have to stay and are kill every day (by gun, straving, foced llabor) while waiting for better life.

If Thai officerreally thinking about national security i think foriegners in Pattaya, Phuket, Bkk are more dangerous than those people from Burma.

people have two choices either they sacrifice a bit for their own dignity and freedom, or stay enslaved under a dictator or somewhere in other foreign country,

now i understands why Joseph Stalin was gunning down the retreating soviet soldiers from the front line because otherwise the Nazi has won and nobody could stop them, yes millions have died in Stalingrad but the result was wonderful the Nazi couldn't enslave them according to their original plan.

few years ago when i was visiting south Korea i asked a Korean man why they were treating the south Asian labor very harsh over there, he told me because they view them as traitors to their own homeland, he explained to me how people in Korea worked day and night during the 1970s 1980s

standing horrible misery that even when he was born he and his dad and mum was sharing small cup of rice and how his father was labor carrying goods from the harbor, south Korea during that time was in the level of poor developing county like Mali, in spite of all that misery no body has left the country they all worked in harmony and solidarity to bring up the country to the current economical level they are now as one of the top 15th richest counties in the world.

the south Koreans encountered the financial crisis of 1997 with great courage, some of them was selling their wife s jewelery just to stay competitive in this world.

leaving the homeland for economical or other reasons is very bad idea indeed, take a look at the Philippines for example, they are much poorer of Thailand inspire of an excellent educational system, simply because everyone is selfish and thinking of earning higher salary abroad while leaving his country in chaos, the intellectual and brain drain is catastrophic to any developing country, leading to further degradation and deterioration of the country.

there s nothing better then someone living in his own homeland in higher dignity even with small wage, rather then earn the reputation of beggar or slave in someone else s country.

[LakeGeneve]

I honestly feel very sorry for the Burmese. The world should do something to overturn that ridiculous Burmese government.

Of course Thailand has the right to (and should) protect their shores.

However, it must be a morally just way and without harm to refugees.

But then again, how just has the Burmese been to Thailand?

Has anyone heard of the nine army battle?

Let's hope a solution is found, justice is served and that no innocent person is harmed.

I'm not a politician, and probably should not even comment, but it's simply so sad.

What makes this worse Mike, is that the Rohingya are NOT Burmese per se; they are refused citizenship in Burma, cannot own land or businesses, are often imprisoned, beaten and tortured for no other reason than their ethnicity and their religion. So this is perhaps more of a crisis than that facing ordinary Burmese...

I seem to recollect that HRW did a good report on their plight a few years ago. Many are displaced and subject to ongoing victimisation.

The ethnic issues in Burma are obviously very complex but there is volumous amounts of documentation regarding specific ethinic groups who are subject to systematic human rights abuses.

Given the historical context with thailand the current relationship with the junta is a pragmatic 'cosy' one. Thailand has done well and thailands interests are served quite well in many business dealings with the Burmese junta (esp on the energy front) and the contemporary political context has been one of mutual benefit for both the junta and the last few govts (Thaksin & Samak most particulalry). The rights of any Burmese in Burma or asylum seekers or refugees in thailand has been ignored by a number of thai govts.

[Stramash]

Lo, am quite surprised at your response here, especially as you make it appear it is a response to my post rather than Beej's (though neither of them actually 'whine' about muslim victimisation; careful mate you are tunring into Jaya)

I at no point singled out Thailand when discusing the Rohingya, and I only briefly mentioned the fact they are Muslim, and that was in relation to the fact that they had hoped that one of their preferred destinations of Bangladesh would have welcomed them more.

Why you gotta drag me into it?

.

It was about the only serious thread where you hadn't made a contribution Dave. So i had to think of a way to reel you in; and it worked!!

[Stramash]

DAMN THOSE KENTUCKIANS!!!!

[LakeGeneve]

haha You deadbeat...

Why would any sane government willingly invite those problems into it's country. Especially a government which is already having significant problems with one Muslim minority population.

Again, why would you invite that potential problem into your country?

Very strange notions and statements.

What evidence do you have that Rohingya are being influenced by Wasabi? I dont think that there are too many sushi bars in Arakan state in Burma or over on the eastern Bangi border.

[beej]

So has anyone other than the Thai military been allowed access to the survivors yet?

[drlovelife8]

Burmese are such sweet and lovely people, proves that the world is wank.

Now now, no stereotypes or generalizations please.

Some Burmese are wank.

[drlovelife8]

haha You deadbeat...

I'm not saying that the attitude expressed above towards Muslims or Muslim refugees is right, wrong or indifferent. But it is a reflection of the influence of the Wahhabi creed across the globe. Wherever there is a disaffected Muslim minoroity, the Wahhabis show up. Violence ensues.

Why would any sane government willingly invite those problems into it's country. Especially a government which is already having significant problems with one Muslim minority population.

Kinda like pouring gunpowder onto a gasoline fire.

As I've said before, most Muslims that I have encountered are peaceful folks who simply want to live their lives and make things better for the next generation. Just like any other group of folks on the planet.

The problem comes when those Saudi funded madrassas start popping up and the Imams and teachers start spouting that "infidel" rhetoric.

Next thing you know, you've got an intifada on your hands.

The Wahhabi victimize the poor of the Muslim world. These refugees are the exact pool of folks that are ripe and ready for the Wahhabi victimization.

Again, why would you invite that potential problem into your country?

Agreed.

Wahhabi (permanently pluralized) look for any poor Islamic places and send what begins as a charity. This money slowly gets used for other things and builds hatred. These bastards are the reason why so many Muslims don't get a fair deal in the world. Well that and some very genuine terrorism.

[LakeGeneve]

haha You deadbeat...

I'm not saying that the attitude expressed above towards Muslims or Muslim refugees is right, wrong or indifferent. But it is a reflection of the influence of the Wahhabi creed across the globe. Wherever there is a disaffected Muslim minoroity, the Wahhabis show up. Violence ensues.

Why would any sane government willingly invite those problems into it's country. Especially a government which is already having significant problems with one Muslim minority population.

Kinda like pouring gunpowder onto a gasoline fire.

As I've said before, most Muslims that I have encountered are peaceful folks who simply want to live their lives and make things better for the next generation. Just like any other group of folks on the planet.

The problem comes when those Saudi funded madrassas start popping up and the Imams and teachers start spouting that "infidel" rhetoric.

Next thing you know, you've got an intifada on your hands.

The Wahhabi victimize the poor of the Muslim world. These refugees are the exact pool of folks that are ripe and ready for the Wahhabi victimization.

Again, why would you invite that potential problem into your country?

Agreed.

Wahhabi (permanently pluralized) look for any poor Islamic places and send what begins as a charity. This money slowly gets used for other things and builds hatred. These bastards are the reason why so many Muslims don't get a fair deal in the world. Well that and some very genuine terrorism.

No one is going to argue about the ugly influence of Wahhabism in certain parts of the world nor the very real threats that such teachings create.

However, the notion that there is an automatic assumption of 'dark influences' in a boatload of potential asylum seekers who happen to be muslim is perverse. Suggesting that Thai security forces acted in the alleged manner they did because of the influence of Wahhabi teachings also ignores the more relevent priorities at play of basic protecting nationhood and endemic racism on all the borders. Even more so on the Burmese border.

Makes about as much sense as saying all Jewish people are a threat to any country with a muslim pop. just because there is a minority of right wing Jews in Israel who applauded the deaths of muslim civilians in Gaza.

If the thai navy acted in the way alleged,they also ignored pretty basic humanitarian standards and the law of the seas. But such actions have been going on for years by various authorities in this part of the world.

And if your absurd notion had any foundation then the proper course of action for the navy would have been to detain and seek to identify any 'Wahhabist extremists' for intel purposes and potential criminal sanction. Not just send them off where they may potentially return.

None of the wealth of contradictory statements from thai security officials has mentioned anything about muslims extremists.

Col Manas testified to the House committee that the Burmese boat people were not poorly treated. Although they kept arriving in Thailand and destroyed their boats to stop authorities forcing them to return, Thais, especially those in Ranong province, gave them food, fixed their boats and tried to convince them to leave, he said.

People in the southern province could no longer tolerate the influx of the Burmese immigrants so they have local volunteers watch out for arrivals.

"The locals asked the Rohingya where they wanted to go, because they could not stay here. Some mentioned Malaysia and others chose Indonesia," he said. "As for the report that some were starving, that might be because they were lost or the winds changed," he said.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/10145/un-talks-welcome-says-abhisit

Worth a read; http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/10158/lame-excuses-add-to-shame

[beej]

haha You deadbeat...

I'm not saying that the attitude expressed above towards Muslims or Muslim refugees is right, wrong or indifferent. But it is a reflection of the influence of the Wahhabi creed across the globe. Wherever there is a disaffected Muslim minoroity, the Wahhabis show up. Violence ensues.

Why would any sane government willingly invite those problems into it's country. Especially a government which is already having significant problems with one Muslim minority population.

Kinda like pouring gunpowder onto a gasoline fire.

As I've said before, most Muslims that I have encountered are peaceful folks who simply want to live their lives and make things better for the next generation. Just like any other group of folks on the planet.

The problem comes when those Saudi funded madrassas start popping up and the Imams and teachers start spouting that "infidel" rhetoric.

Next thing you know, you've got an intifada on your hands.

The Wahhabi victimize the poor of the Muslim world. These refugees are the exact pool of folks that are ripe and ready for the Wahhabi victimization.

Again, why would you invite that potential problem into your country?

Agreed.

Wahhabi (permanently pluralized) look for any poor Islamic places and send what begins as a charity. This money slowly gets used for other things and builds hatred. These bastards are the reason why so many Muslims don't get a fair deal in the world. Well that and some very genuine terrorism.

Yep yep yep, they must be all evil, lets send them to a slow and painful death without a trial or a chance.

[beej]

...and yes this was nice to read...

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/10158/lame-excuses-add-to-shame

[MisterMatlock]

...and yes this was nice to read...

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/10158/lame-excuses-add-to-shame

I can't wait for the results of the "fact-finding mission" promised by Abhisit. Just the other day he said that the claims of abuse were "exaggerated". Pretty impressive to say they're "exaggerated" before any investigation is done and promptly bar UN officials to have access to the refugees. I somehow doubt Abhisit will be finding any wrongdoing by his real bosses. :wink:

[beej]

Sounds dark, the new PM is the puppet of all puppets.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7846570.stm

[MisterMatlock]

Sounds dark, the new PM is the puppet of all puppets.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7846570.stm

But he's good looking puppet with a nice haircut and was educated at Oxford. I feel the need to repeat these things since it was trumpeted in the "Thai media" (ad nauseum.) It WAS fun listening to him being called "the asian Obama". He did his deal with the devil as far as becoming PM, maybe he enjoys being a lapdog.

[alvish]

From any country at any time... has there ever been a Prime Minister, 1st Minister, President that you can trust?? That can change a country in 2 months?? Some crazy 3rd world **** still goes on in Thailand and it won't get any better until people back the Govt they have.. the Prime Minister will always be the puppet but who is pulling the strings?? In this case not Thaksin...Once you have a stable Govt these "big" issues will be sorted but ur not talking months ur talking years..

[LakeGeneve]

Some interesting pics in this CNN report, a **** scared guy caught by village security who seems to supports recent allegations and some potentially damning pics of a boat being towed at the end but the conclusion is perhaps flawed without further evidence.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/01/25/rivers.thai.boat.refugee.cnn

[LakeGeneve]

Some interesting pics in this CNN report, a **** scared guy caught by village security who seems to supports recent allegations and some potentially damning pics of a boat being towed at the end but the conclusion is perhaps flawed without further evidence.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/01/25/rivers.thai.boat.refugee.cnn

[beej]

Poor bastards, hope this puppet prime minister can get his head out of the military's ass and do something about their lies.