.

[Count_Jason]

..

[beej]

I bet you there were some REALLY bad one, people shitting on the Koran and rubbing it in the prisoners faces and the like.

Nice one you Yank morons! How to **** world wide ties and relations in one foul swoop.

Were you any part of this Dave?

[Count_Jason]

..

[Count_Jason]

..

[eagle]

They were probably reminded of all the hoopla when Maplethorpes photos hit the public eye. That many photos there will be sex sites dedicated to them and the porn industry would thrive :shock:

[PJack]

and im not one to president bash

well hey

hes better then bush?

yes its fair to say

where were all these NAY sayers

when bush was president

bush (mr i wanna impress my daddy) WAS NOT elected twice......

f*ck obama bashing or any president bashing

But if i was PAD or UDD you might wanna understand me right?

f*ck that

or is that the whiskey talking ....

just sayin

wtf ?

anyone who contradicts themselves more than twice in diatribe like that is either a mental midget or drunk.

you should change your name to disaffected youth.

[Mister Moobs]

This is tame stuff compared to what goes on in prisons every day in Islamic countries all over the middle East.

Where are your lefty dogooder bleeding hearts voices for those victims.

Hmmm

[Mister Moobs]

By the way are any of these (unnamed) middle East countries you are referring to are renowned for claiming to be beacons of freedom, liberty and human rights? Are they condemning, sanctioning, intervening in the internal affairs of or invading other countries under the premise to bring and/or uphold freedom and liberty and the adherence to human rights? Is any of the countries you refer to claiming to lead the world on matters of moral and ethics? I didn't think so.

Actually, yes. They do make the claim to being the light of the truth and justice of Islam.

But, hey, what the hell. China claims to be the PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC Republic.

And Russia, whey they took over half of the damn world, claimed to be UNITED and a REPUBLIC.

So who's clear on what any of that even means.

Obviously, no politician is clear on these things.

Be careful where you point your fingers in your self righteous indignation and faux outrage.... :roll:

[Mister Moobs]

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/05/here-are-few-of-torture-photos-obama.html

My level of empathy and "give a f*ck" is directly related to who these folks are.

If they are ordinary citizens and/or wrongly accused. It's outrageous.

If these folks are hardcore insurgents or al Qaeda/terrorist types, I think they are being treated far, far better than they deserve.

[beej]

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/05/here-are-few-of-torture-photos-obama.html

My level of empathy and "give a f*ck" is directly related to who these folks are.

If they are ordinary citizens and/or wrongly accused. It's outrageous.

If these folks are hardcore insurgents or al Qaeda/terrorist types, I think they are being treated far, far better than they deserve.

Who knows, the ***** never get a fair trial, if a trail at all.

[LakeGeneve]

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/05/here-are-few-of-torture-photos-obama.html

My level of empathy and "give a f*ck" is directly related to who these folks are.

If they are ordinary citizens and/or wrongly accused. It's outrageous.

If these folks are hardcore insurgents or al Qaeda/terrorist types, I think they are being treated far, far better than they deserve.

Who knows, the ***** never get a fair trial, if a trail at all.

Exactly right beej.

Dave, the flaw in your logic is that the detainee is subject to the 'enhanced interrogation methods' aka torture AND without basic procedural protections nor due process. So one cannnot know if someone is an "ordinary citizens and/or wrongly accused" or an "al Qaeda/terrorist types" until after the event. And maybe not even then.

It is akin to the shoot first, ask later method. And stupidly enough it has exposed govt agents to potential criminal liability under US law.

What do you say to detainees who have been tortured, subjected to prolong detention and are subsequently released without charge as they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time or they were fasley accused?

"Eh , sorry we did that to you. No hard feeling then"?!

This has been very slippery policy slope for your country which has had one obvious consequence of exposing armed service personal and citizens to further risk .

If you believe Cheney then such policies have 'saved hundreds of thousands of lives'. Not even many Neocons believe anything that comes out of Cheney's mouth. If you believe in the tooth fairy, I guess Cheney may seem reasonable.

[Mister Moobs]

I don't believe anything that Cheney said. Then or recently. They guys is a first class *****. He and all the other Nixon rejects.

LG, note the "if" in those statements. They are either one or the other. I don't care if we get any intelligence out of the sorry fucks. If they are al Qaeda or insurgents, they deserve much worse.

[Mister Moobs]

This has been very slippery policy slope for your country which has had one obvious consequence of exposing armed service personal and citizens to further risk .

If you believe Cheney then such policies have 'saved hundreds of thousands of lives'. Not even many Neocons believe anything that comes out of Cheney's mouth. If you believe in the tooth fairy, I guess Cheney may seem reasonable.

I'll agree with you here.

I go back and forth on the torture thing. Use it or not. If I thought that our Gov't could be careful and accurate with who they torture, I'd be one hundred percent behind it. As it stands, I know that my Gov't is pretty careless with the lives of it's own citizens and I've also met some of the lame asses in charge. They could **** up boiled water in my opinion.

And the kicker is that we are one of the best out there. Ain't that a hopeful sign of human progress cause we are all f**ked up.

Personally, I think we invaded the wrong country. A bit south of Kuwait would have been the more correct target. For both oil and to stem the rising tide of Islamic fundamentalism based terrorism.

[LakeGeneve]

I don't believe anything that Cheney said. Then or recently. They guys is a first class c*nt. He and all the other Nixon rejects.

LG, note the "if" in those statements. They are either one or the other. I don't care if we get any intelligence out of the sorry fucks. If they are al Qaeda or insurgents, they deserve much worse.

Yes I think I understood that even if I disagree with your supporting such methods for any one particular group.

But how to get to the If ?

If you support the general application of the methods to all who are accused, logically, does it not stand that to attain a point of classifying accused into your two basic catagories then they all are firstly subject to the methods?

Or are you suggesting that a bit of 'light' torture is initially ok to sort out who is who before applying the 'heavy' torture to the 'baddies'?! :shock:

[Mister Moobs]

See above.

As with many decisions that will need to be made over the course of the next few decades, there are no easy answers.

[LakeGeneve]

This is tame stuff compared to what goes on in prisons every day in Islamic countries all over the middle East.

Where are your lefty dogooder bleeding hearts voices for those victims.

I'm against torture by anybody anywhere against anyone and if you have any pictures you want to share of abuse taking place in other prisons around the world go for it. Alternatively, contact AI or Human Rights Watch and I'm sure they'll be interested in any material you have to offer.

By the way are any of these (unnamed) middle East countries you are referring to are renowned for claiming to be beacons of freedom, liberty and human rights? Are they condemning, sanctioning, intervening in the internal affairs of or invading other countries under the premise to bring and/or uphold freedom and liberty and the adherence to human rights? Is any of the countries you refer to claiming to lead the world on matters of moral and ethics? I didn't think so.

If we (and I am taking a leap here assuming you are in favour too) want others to adhere to basic human rights and not use torture we had better lead by example and not according to the old adage 'Do as we say , not as we do.'. As it stands the 'West' has lost all credibility (if ever there was any anyway) to lecture anyone on human rights. Great achievement by the Neo-Cons indeed. :roll:

Excellent response Hobbes.

AI, HRW and a wealth of NGOs have copious reports in relation to grievous humans rights abuses which occur in the middle east. Problems with detention standards in the middle east have been extensively documented for many years. Simmo probably wont bother try to educate himself at all. But he could even read the US State Dept annual reports on human rights for some info.

Should if Simmo ever be mistakenly arrested in his country or another country, or subject to a lack of due process in some administrative matter, I don't doubt that he will seeing himself as a victim and be rapidly availing himself to the assistance of a "dogooder" human rights organisation/lawyer. :roll:

[LakeGeneve]

This has been very slippery policy slope for your country which has had one obvious consequence of exposing armed service personal and citizens to further risk .

If you believe Cheney then such policies have 'saved hundreds of thousands of lives'. Not even many Neocons believe anything that comes out of Cheney's mouth. If you believe in the tooth fairy, I guess Cheney may seem reasonable.

I'll agree with you here.

I go back and forth on the torture thing. Use it or not. If I thought that our Gov't could be careful and accurate with who they torture, I'd be one hundred percent behind it. As it stands, I know that my Gov't is pretty careless with the lives of it's own citizens and I've also met some of the lame asses in charge. They could f*ck up boiled water in my opinion.

And the kicker is that we are one of the best out there. Ain't that a hopeful sign of human progress cause we are all f*cked up.

Personally, I think we invaded the wrong country. A bit south of Kuwait would have been the more correct target. For both oil and to stem the rising tide of Islamic fundamentalism based terrorism.

Honestly, I think the US should have invaded texas! Plenty of oil there. :wink:

I know that your not going to blindly defend the position of any US govt as some would. The USA has played such a pivotal role in both the establishment of international human rights and humanitarian law BUT also unfortunately in the attempts to undermine, circumvent and ignore such laws.

But what is new there? France, Australia and the UK have done likewise as all countries do in international forae. Even the fairly respectable scandanavian countries have their blemishes and double standards.

Torture has a unique legal status internationally, along with genocide, in that it ss a crime which has universal application. As it is defined under the Convention as a crime committed by an agent of the state, or acting on behalf of the state, it is considered in the most serious manner.

The problem with torture is that there will always be mistakes by the state and it really does send the wrong message when it is strictly prohibited internationally and accordingly unlawful in the USA. Bush and co have also potential exposed state interrogators and armed personnel to potential criminal and civil action.

Since Obama signed the Pres Decree and the subsequent release of the memos, the interesting issue for me in this debate has been reading the interviews of interrogators who unequivically state that the use of torture is counter productive to obtaining good, reliable and actionable intel.

[Mister Moobs]

Honestly, I think the US should have invaded texas! Plenty of oil there. :wink:

See the following:

Stephen Austin, Sam Houston and a wink from Andrew Jackson -- 1835 to 1836

President Polk, Winfield Scott and Zachary Taylor -- 1846-1848 The Mexican War.

We already did that. And we kept it the 2nd time.

[Hobbes]

By the way are any of these (unnamed) middle East countries you are referring to are renowned for claiming to be beacons of freedom, liberty and human rights? Are they condemning, sanctioning, intervening in the internal affairs of or invading other countries under the premise to bring and/or uphold freedom and liberty and the adherence to human rights? Is any of the countries you refer to claiming to lead the world on matters of moral and ethics? I didn't think so.

Actually, yes. They do make the claim to being the light of the truth and justice of Islam.

But, hey, what the hell. China claims to be the PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC Republic.

And Russia, whey they took over half of the damn world, claimed to be UNITED and a REPUBLIC.

So who's clear on what any of that even means.

Obviously, no politician is clear on these things.

Be careful where you point your fingers in your self righteous indignation and faux outrage.... :roll:

Care to try again...starting by reading (if capable) my post.

Did I talk about 'light of justice' and 'truth of islam' (or was it now the other way around), or how and why countries have the names they have? No, I didn't. So frankly, what are you on about. :roll:

[Count_Jason]

..

[Oo.Cloud.oO]

and im not one to president bash

well hey

hes better then bush?

yes its fair to say

where were all these NAY sayers

when bush was president

bush (mr i wanna impress my daddy) WAS NOT elected twice......

f*ck obama bashing or any president bashing

But if i was PAD or UDD you might wanna understand me right?

f*ck that

or is that the whiskey talking ....

just sayin

wtf ?

anyone who contradicts themselves more than twice in diatribe like that is either a mental midget or drunk.

you should change your name to disaffected youth.

eat dirt

i said i was drunk first of

f and i dont care to much for bush nor obama or they supporters

if u read my whole quote ------instead of editin then quoting----

there was not a contradiction if u understood what i was sayin

[Oo.Cloud.oO]

ocloud0 wrote

O

B

A

M

A

Our

Big

A$$

Mistake

America

SO your saying McCain would have been better ? I'm disappointed to see Obama turning from Hope to politician but I still see alternatives getting more of a chance and many things happening for the better then have been with repos in office. McCain would have been a bigger mistake if 2 choices we had could both be mistakes.

nope mccain would have been like bush times 3

i actually woulda voted Ron Paul

but im not rep or dem on the politics side

but no eagle

IM NOT SAYIN any is BETTER then obama and definetly not Mccain

[GoodKarma]

wasn't these photos taken in the bush administration? which they tried to block from going public. they look very familiar.left over from the prison scandal. so they are probably already public domain anyway. so why wouldn't he want you to see pictures already public? if you don't like bama just saying so is enough for me. we are free to like and not like who we want. its not cool to try to create inuendos.

how in the world do I Know that they are even legitimate coming from a blog? dont feel bad though even legitmate news sources report information from blogs etc. sometimes without even checking to see if the source is legitimate or not. that is what got dan rather in trouble..reporting info without makeing sure it was legit.besides a lot of people didnt like him anyway just looking for a n excuse because he is considered a liberal..

[Count_Jason]

..

[Oo.Cloud.oO]

They're not from the prison scandal; they're a few of the 2000 torture photos that Obama is trying to block the release of, that were leaked to a major newspaper. These 2000 photos are from the Bush years - no one's saying or suggesting otherwise. They are the guilty party.

read The Huffington Post

youll see alot of good things on there about this, even John Cusacks opinion on the photos and other things that were TO BE released

Obama was all for releasing them, not just photos but other evidence of some serious messed up ****

we been fightin in big courts for this **** to see the light of day forever now

and once everything was all good and the public was gonna get a big face full of all of it

all the sudden big suite and ties are hush hush about it and every one and every media is playing it off like "what r u talkin about this never happend"

gotta let that, dont look behind the curtain feel

just we r all about moving forward right? now take ur gov chip and stand in line