Barbell Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Why events in Libya - not the revolt, but the insurgence which has moved in war The Libyan society consists of 26 clans. Ghaddafi united them by the rigid control and distribution of incomes of oil. Thus in Cyrenaica (which centre is Bengasi) latently remained separatism, but the management of clans considered that they may receive more incomes. So - really Kaddafi supervised only iceberg top, I think, he did not supervise all situation, at all his desire for it is impossible, to take and unite, creating a new state. Therefore the rim of the centralisation, softened by social welfare pillow, in due course has burst. I note - that compared with Egypt, Tunisia, Algyria, Yemen, - in Libya there was not poverty. Many oil, small population, cheap prices, first classes ways, some cars in every family, government subsidies, high level of education - it was Libya before 17. February 2011. I know people, who have visited Libya. Libya as a tidbit, are interested by some western countries. Judging by persistence - it is France and Britain, maybe Italia, which trying to solve their problems by the US arms. US don't want to interference, because they stuck in Afghanistan and Iraq, and maybe in the next time will need the intervention in the Persian Gulf (Qatar, Bahrein, Saudia) and Yemen. I consider, the external factors - somehow promises of the West promoted for heads of separate clans in the east of Libya, the financial help to them. The clans system suggests obedience of rank-and-file members of a clan to its elders. Yesterday the Council of Elders has declared that supports Kaddafi - the clan supported, today The Elders has guarantees from outside the West - the clan has told to be at war, and all its rank-and-file members automatic have changed a position. And, probably, militaries belonging to rebellious clans, officials, have joined at once to the opposition party, to incurgence. Plus, probably, the West worked also individually with someone from officials or military persons. In the case of defeat of Kaddafi, Libya will be a country of half-civilised tribes, as in Afghanistan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funky_house Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 It's all about the oil. I don't see Cameron et al organising anything against Mugabe and his thugs, but they are quick off the mark with Libya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Why events in Libya - not the revolt, but the insurgence which has moved in war The Libyan society consists of 26 clans. Ghaddafi united them by the rigid control and distribution of incomes of oil. Thus in Cyrenaica (which centre is Bengasi) latently remained separatism, but the management of clans considered that they may receive more incomes. So - really Kaddafi supervised only iceberg top, I think, he did not supervise all situation, at all his desire for it is impossible, to take and unite, creating a new state. Therefore the rim of the centralisation, softened by social welfare pillow, in due course has burst. I note - that compared with Egypt, Tunisia, Algyria, Yemen, - in Libya there was not poverty. Many oil, small population, cheap prices, first classes ways, some cars in every family, government subsidies, high level of education - it was Libya before 17. February 2011. I know people, who have visited Libya. Libya as a tidbit, are interested by some western countries. Judging by persistence - it is France and Britain, maybe Italia, which trying to solve their problems by the US arms. US don't want to interference, because they stuck in Afghanistan and Iraq, and maybe in the next time will need the intervention in the Persian Gulf (Qatar, Bahrein, Saudia) and Yemen. I consider, the external factors - somehow promises of the West promoted for heads of separate clans in the east of Libya, the financial help to them. The clans system suggests obedience of rank-and-file members of a clan to its elders. Yesterday the Council of Elders has declared that supports Kaddafi - the clan supported, today The Elders has guarantees from outside the West - the clan has told to be at war, and all its rank-and-file members automatic have changed a position. And, probably, militaries belonging to rebellious clans, officials, have joined at once to the opposition party, to incurgence. Plus, probably, the West worked also individually with someone from officials or military persons. In the case of defeat of Kaddafi, Libya will be a country of half-civilised tribes, as in Afghanistan. And it's the return of the TF spokesman for blinkered and inaccurate views of world politics... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbell Posted March 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Two important factors of success Gaddafi 1. The capture of Az-Zawiya and Ras-Lanuf. It's affirmed the BBC. In this case, the British broadcaster hurried to make a reservation, saying that al-Zawiya is small town (population 180 thousand people, or 2% of the total population of Libya), and the rebels could have a more serious resistance to Qadhafi in the east. In fact, apparently, Gaddafi did not want to spend all his energy those sent to fight the insurgency, as well as being limited after the betrayal of the army, he just concentrated on the operation of taking Az-Zawiya, refusing to counterattack several directions as it was initially (Az-Zawiya, Misurata, Ras Lanuf). This carried out successfully. Then (yesterday) - concentrated to Ras-Lanuf. Now he would move troops, apparently, to Benghazi, where there is preliminary bombardment and air strikes on militant bases. And taking Al-zawiya but by itself is a victory more success Gaddafi and because it is taking the second city in less than a week - the first was Bing-Jawad. 2. Termination of the wave of move former comrades of Gaddafi to the ranks of the rebel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 and now here's Bob with the weather... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbell Posted March 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Colonel Qaddafi on the outskirts of Benghazi. Meanwhile, a drunken lover of whiskey fell behind the sofa and gives out irresponsible signals ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Neither drunk nor behind sofa. Just bemused by your idiotic ramblings, blinkered view (again) and support of a dictator. I can just see you all gathered round the samovar exchanging fond memories of Koba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbell Posted March 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Gaddafi has much made for Libya. In Libya the highest standard of living in Africa. Unlike Egypt, where poverty. You can draw in your imaginations everything. Dictator - who killed 80 people in Bangkok at spring 2010. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 We are not talking about Egypt or Thailand, though frankly, bringing the 80 dead in Bangkok is laughable when compared to the thousands Gaddafi has had killed or has caused to be killed. Around 30 assassinations worldwide in the 1980's, the hundreds, perhaps thousands of dissidents killed within Libya during his rule, the likely thousands of civilians killed in the current conflict, the approximately 15-20% of the population hired as informants, the hundreds lost when Gaddafi tried to save that other stalwart of democracy Idi Amin, his funding of Black September, the IRA and Abu Sayyaf (which has resulted in hundreds of 'secondary' deaths), his support of the butcher Milosevic (probably another of your heroes) etc etc etc. Much of the oil wealth went to funding terrorist groups and buying arms instead of to the people. Yes; he has done some good things for the country but much of the East of Libya is totally impoverished through blinkered economics and poor management. Yet you bring up 80 deaths in Bangkok as being worse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbell Posted March 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 And this past acts Gaddafi (who still have to prove)? Talk about the intervention being now, not 25 years ago, when he was bombing over Lockerbie. Thousands were killed in this conflict? Show me them. Just do not dramatized photo productions. If everyday US army kill children in Afghanistan (today about this told Karzai) - why "The World" don't talk about it and don't going intervention in USA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 It's all right to kill other countries' citizens, just not your own. And...em...what 'dramatized photo productions'. Dissidents were killed, definitely in their hundreds, perhaps (note use of word) in their thousands. No-one has any real idea how many he killed. Are you denying that at least hundreds of civilians have been killed in the current uprising? By Gaddafi forces? Do you deny he funded and provided arms to various terrorist organisations? Do you deny he bombed a Berlin nightclub? Read his own speeches where he urges terrorist acts or acknowledges his own part in funding them. And always back to Afghanistan. Let him without sin cast the first stone. "Estimates of the Afghan deaths vary from 1 million to 2 million. 5-10 million Afghans fled to Pakistan and Iran, 1/3 of the prewar population of the country. Another 2 million Afghans were displaced within the country. In the 1980s, half of all refugees in the world were Afghan. Along with fatalities were 1.2 million Afghans disabled (mujahideen, government soldiers and noncombatants) and 3 million maimed or wounded (primarily noncombatants). Irrigation systems, crucial to agriculture in Afghanistan's arid climate, were destroyed by aerial bombing and strafing by Soviet or government forces. In the worst year of the war, 1985, well over half of all the farmers who remained in Afghanistan had their fields bombed, and over one quarter had their irrigation systems destroyed and their livestock shot by Soviet or government troops, according to a survey conducted by Swedish relief experts. The population of Afghanistan's second largest city, Kandahar, was reduced from 200,000 before the war to no more than 25,000 inhabitants, following a months-long campaign of carpet bombing and bulldozing by the Soviets and Afghan communist soldiers in 1987. Land mines had killed 25,000 Afghans during the war and another 10–15 million land mines, most planted by Soviet and government forces, were left scattered throughout the countryside.The International Committee of the Red Cross estimated in 1994 that it would take 4,300 years to remove all the Soviet land mines in Afghanistan. A great deal of damage was done to the civilian children population by land mines. A 2005 report estimated 3–4% of the Afghan population were disabled due to Soviet and government land mines. In the city of Quetta, a survey of refugee women and children taken shortly after the Soviet withdrawal found over 80% of the children refugees unregistered and child mortality at 31%. Of children who survived, 67% were severely malnourished, with malnutrition increasing with age." At August 2010, the total casualties in Afghanistan under the US/Coalition 'invasion' was; Afghan troops killed - 8,587, Afghan civilians killed - 8,813, U.S. troops killed -1,140, Other Conciliation troops killed - 772, Contractors killed - 298, Journalists killed - 19. Now I would be the last to support US foreign policy, but seems to me they have a way to go till they catch up with your level of destruction, death and maiming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbell Posted March 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 You can draw any figures in favor of certain interests. But Karzai and the Afghans are better known in the field, as all this is the case in reality. Moreover, when I talk with Afghans, they regret that the Soviet troops withdrew. They believe that they were deceived by the American propaganda. I repeat once again - where the current offense Gaddafi, for which intervention is needed? Or intervention is planned for the events 20 years ago? Why, then, is alive and at liberty still trader in human organs Tachi? About the current "victims" Gaddafi regime. In Libya, there was an armed insurgency with Al Qaeda. If these were peaceful demonstrations, as they say, "independent media", they would long ago have disbanded from the government troops. But the "insurgents" in a few days captured the second largest city (Benghazi), they seized the military stores, on their side moved part of the army and police. And it's unarming insurgents? "Independent media" talk about hundreds and possibly thousands of victims of Gaddafi. But do not provide the photographs and video of dead for some reason. Why should I believe them? Just because the media in favor of the U.S. trying to impose on people a pattern of "atrocities Gaddafi? Unlike Egypt and Tunisia, in Libya, western project to change the government can not realized. Strategists at the CIA screwed up. Soon, Colonel suppress a rebellion, and occasion for the intervention will not be. And if it will - then, as you said, the Gaddafi has links with subversive groups around the world. And I think he use them in case of aggression against his country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbell Posted March 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 http://ttolk.ru/?p=2605 Here the author has collected photographs from the scene and proves dramatizing and affectedness happening. Materials in Russian. Maybe somebody can understand Russian language, or use the online translator. Very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 There is no real point debating this. You have your entrenched and blinkered position and would not be moved from it even if there were live coverage of Gaddafi shooting civilians personally. You remind me of the tales of those apparatchiks who stood by and praised Koba even as their family and neighbours were dragged from their beds at 3am and taken to Lubyanka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbell Posted March 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yeG-OJNWsQ0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> It was reported that Nicolas Bruni received funding from al-Gaddafi. http://plus.lefigaro.fr/note/gaddafi-interview-here-there-is-no-opposition-20110317-424719 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbell Posted March 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 <iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yeG-OJNWsQ0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbell Posted March 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANNO Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 yes Gaddafi simply put --- should be held as a model and example for North Africa; with a fair and just government, evenly dispersing the wealth to the Libyan people and of course has been a unique international citizen .... Barbell ...! he is a madman; exceed only perhaps by North Korea's ruler(s) ??? could you honestly imagine trying to live (more like survive) under his dictatorship? Really man.... a little intelligent review of this horrible example of governance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbell Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 (edited) Well ... If will begin intervention of NATO, I hope win and good fight for Libyan people and their Leader Muammar. Edited March 18, 2011 by Barbell ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbell Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANNO Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 one other question Barbell.... when the Soviet Union was broken and became (among others) the Russian Federation ...those guys on the Tank with Mr. Yeltsin... were they in revolt or was that an insurgent movement? I am just wondering how prespective of you country's history Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiAnt Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Noticed the warmongers are at it again with their airstrikes and cruise missiles in the name of humanity ffs. Not enough Iraqs or Afghanistans for them? What a load of utter shite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iBatch Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Downloading Bible app. WWIII is coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beej Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Sad really for the past two to three months Egypt, Tunisa and others have forced out these dictators with minimal force and mainly peaceful protests, now the U.S backed up with its old buddies are bombing the **** out of the place ruining this Middle Eastern movement, and turning that part of the world even more against the West. Can we give Oboma bin Gunbomb his Noble Peace prize back yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranM Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Sad really for the past two to three months Egypt, Tunisa and others have forced out these dictators with minimal force and mainly peaceful protests, now the U.S backed up with its old buddies are bombing the **** out of the place ruining this Middle Eastern movement, and turning that part of the world even more against the West.Can we give Oboma bin Gunbomb his Noble Peace prize back yet? now in fairness the West r responding to Violence from the Gaddafi regime and the ppl from Libya who r in revolt against Gaddafi have requested this assistance !! it is a complex and difficult situation, but it's NOT a case of the West just going in gung ho with no reason !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.