is there a God?

[CiaranM]

ur snide comment that it beats thinking is fairly ludicrous coming from someone who refuses to accept anything else as the truth except for ur interpretration of what the bible actually says and u continually post a stream of quotes from this book.

I probably did not make my case here, did I? Here is the point I was trying to make: I don't have a problem with anyone doing outside research. I know that toe-to-toe, from the top of someone else's head, they are not going to know the Bible as well as I do (and I acknowledge that I have great deficiencies in my knowledge).

However, I object to someone just cutting and pasting from a website if they simply did that to support what they already believe...that, no matter what I say, no matter how well I answer their objections, it really wouldn't make any difference to them anyway.

yes, but surely u r only "cutting and pasting" from the bible to support what u already believe in. i just can't see the difference between what u r complaining about and what u actually do. it would also appear that no matter what we say or how badly we feel u answer our questions it really won't make any difference to u anyway.

[zeusbheld]

is one more post enough to get this thread on to page 33? just checking.

a lot of people jump on and whinge about how boring this thread is. but it is 33 pages, and stil going.... maybe we're in for some sort of record here...

this is the 492nd post, and the thread has been viewed 4311 times..

[zeusbheld]

donno what you get... that's between you and God i think...

i'm too busy dodging the lynch mob to give out awards (post 494 on this thread).

[scutfargus]

From the book of Isaiah:

Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes;

lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

Then I said, "How long, O Lord?"

And he said: "Until cities lie waste without inhabitant, and houses without people, and the land is a desolate waste,

and the LORD removes people far away,

and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.

And though a tenth remain in it, it will be burned again, like a terebinth or an oak, whose stump remains when it is felled." The holy seed is its stump. (Isa.6:11-13).

(maybe I should have posted this in the thread about Israel's right to the Land of Promise)

[scutfargus]

Then Jesus proclaimed, "The one who believes in Me believes not in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And the one who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." (John 12:44-45).

[scutfargus]

"If you know Me, you have also known My Father. From now on you do know Him and you have seen Him."

"Lord," said Philip, "show us the Father, and that's enough for us."

Jesus said to him, "Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. So, how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?? (John 14:7?9).

[Loburt]

Moderator Note

Scutfargus,

Stop loading up the forums with quotations from the Bible. Make your points with logic, or state that they are based on your faith.

I will accept an occasional and BRIEF biblical quotation.

I will regard these long lists of passages and quotations as FORUM SPAM. They add nothing to the discussion or debate. And I will delete them if you keep it up.

[scutfargus]

for example, i wanna quote what scut wrote about ppl only quote a verse or two to back up their statement. then i found he was backing up what he said believers go to heaven even though they go out and rape and kill ppl..

i wanna point out to him that he's doing the same thing with those whom he 'condemned' too.. but the heck with it.. i'm lost!

For this reason, I quoted an extensive amount of Scripture, all spoken by Jesus (but there is a lot which I left out also found in the Bible) that salvation comes from believing in Jesus Christ--alone. Now, I am sure when you came to those Scriptures, you just glanced at them or did not even read them.

The thing which you refer to is called proof texting and many people do it. And, to some degree, when you take a verse out of its context, you can prove a whole lot of things from the Bible. This is why, when it comes to two of the most fundamental doctrines, I posted tons of Scripture.

The first is, to have eternal life, it requires only that you believe in Jesus Christ. I know that this is counter-intuitive, because we all want to think we earn what we get; furthermore, we don't want people we don't like or feel that we are better than, having a relationship with God. Here, the idea that a rapist or a murderer or a child molester could have a relationship with God is repugmant to most of us. We just do not believe it can be possible. But Jesus died for all sins, not just the ones that you think are okay to commit.

if a so-called believer does such things without guilt or repent, he sure will be accountable at the end.

ah.. better an idea yet :idea: .. rape and kill but still go to heaven? maybe scut can start by shooting me first. :?

Again, when it comes to eternal security (that is, once you are saved, you stay saved), I think I quoted ample Scripture (not just one or two verses). Again, I know what is found in the Bible seems counter-intuitive. That's why it is revealed truth; it is not something that we would come up with out of our own heads.

I noticed that you used the word repent and I know you think you know what it means. But you are wrong. The Greek is metanoeo (I am doing this from memory, so forgive me if the spelling is wrong). Meta means change and noeo means mind. The word you see in the Bible over and over again, the word repent, simply means to change your mind. There is a word which involves emotion, and that is metamellomai, and this word is used in association with Judas Iscariot after betraying Jesus. He did regret what he had done; he did feel guilty. Again, this is all counter-intuitive, and I am sure you learned differently in church; but if you check me on those meanings, you'll see that I actually know what I am talking about here.

Man, if it is up to him, would give everyone a pass except those he feels self-righteously better than. Or, man would invent a religion where man has to achieve something or earn something. This is how we think. That is why it is very difficult to wrap your mind around the idea the Jesus took care of everything. It is as if Donald Trump came to our door and handed us a check for $100,000,000. It is not something we deserve, but, in order to cash it, we would have to take it from him (or receive it from him). Jesus Christ is doing the same thing, and yet, we slam the door in His face. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears Me and opens the door, I will enter." (Rev. 3:20).

[scutfargus]

Earlier, I stated that I had been saved 30 years ago and I could not lose that salvation. And os that everyone is clear, yes, I can murder, rape, or do any sin that offends you and I cannot lose what God has given me (and before you become all concerned, I really don't have plans on committing any of those sins). Salvation is based upon what Christ has done and not what I have done.

now this i find incredibly hard to believe. surely we are all accountable for our actions and deeds come judgement day.

What you are saying here is exactly how everyone thinks. Thinking that something must be done about what other people do wrong is completely human as to be almost universal. What is found in the Bible is counter-intuitive. There is justice; there is judgment; but Jesus shouldered all of that. I know for a fact I am completely undeserving.

[scutfargus]

yes, but surely u r only "cutting and pasting" from the bible to support what u already believe in. i just can't see the difference between what u r complaining about and what u actually do. it would also appear that no matter what we say or how badly we feel u answer our questions it really won't make any difference to u anyway.

Most of the time I don't simply cut and paste. For instance, I used the Holman Christian Standard Bible and quoted this verse:

"If you know Me, you will also know My Father. From now on you do know Him and you have seen Him."

"Lord," said Philip, "show us the Father, and that's enough for us."

Jesus said to him, "Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?? (John 14:7?9).

However, because there are some translation problems, I made a few changes in the verse:

"If you know Me, you have also known My Father. From now on you do know Him and you have seen Him."

"Lord," said Philip, "show us the Father, and that's enough for us."

Jesus said to him, "Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?? (John 14:7?9).

You can see in bold where I made the changes. The HCSB translated the first verb as a future tense, but in reality, is is a perfect tense, which, in the Greek means, something which occurs in the past with results that go on forever. We generally just translate it with our perfect tense (and not a future tense, as they did). The second change I made is the HCSB left out the kai connective, which is there in the Greek. Now, leaving out kai connectives is common; it is not a mistranslation, per se; as the Greeks and Hebrews used a lot more conjunctions than we do. However, I think leaving the conjunction in is more appropriate, especially here, where we have a progression of thought rather than two separate thoughts. Now, admittedly, I don't do this with everything I quote; it takes a bit of time to go back to the Greek and do this stuff every time.

[scutfargus]

Moderator Note

Scutfargus,

Stop loading up the forums with quotations from the Bible. Make your points with logic, or state that they are based on your faith.

I will accept an occasional and BRIEF biblical quotation.

I will regard these long lists of passages and quotations as FORUM SPAM. They add nothing to the discussion or debate. And I will delete them if you keep it up.

I understand your point, but allow me to explain:

My purpose in quoting a large number of verses in the same post was to show that, according to the Bible, Jesus is God and that eternal life comes through believing in Him. I have been accused several times of interpreting Scripture in the way that I wanted and I have been accused one time of "proof texting." Listing a large number of Scriptures with little or no commentary indicates that I am not iterpreting this or that passage to suit my own personal theology and that I am not just relying on one or two verses taken out of context to prove a point.

Since there are 3 people in this thread who give some credence to the Bible (perhaps not as much as I do), I felt this was apropos.

[scutfargus]

With regard to the issue of God, religion, or quotes from books purporting to have profound insight I would suggest that there is a creed which we could all follow with little conflict to our respective beliefs

From the book of Sgt Pepper.

[What would you think if I sang out of tune

Would you stand up and walk out on me

Lend me your ears and I'll sing you a song

And I'll try not o sing out of key

Oh, I get by with a little help from my friends

Mm, I get high with a little help from my friends

Mm, gonna try with a little help from my friends

No one told you life was going to be this way

(clap clap clap clap clap)

your life's a joke, your broke....etc.

By contrast with the biblical rantings above and the legends within

This was wrote and sung by real people !

[Moderator note: true, but it is also irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and so I'm removing it be fair and avoid accusations of only censoring posts from the Bible. Sorry. Like the song, but it has no point here.] Now you have context I trust you can leave it alone ?

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander

I hope that you think long and hard about censoring anyone. Even though there is terrific disagreement in this thread, apparently this thread has drawn far more attention than most threads have in the past. Even people who apparently have no thoughts on the subject post. That has to count for something.

BTW, Sgt, the Bible was written by real people and, in part, sung by real people. Maybe not from our era, but that doesn't make it any less relevant. A couple generations beyond us, John Lennon is going to be a footnote in history, a virtual unknown to most. At best, his songs will be utilized in commercials. The Bible is still going to be here, and it will still sell more copies than any other book in print, as it has in the past. Maybe there is a reason for that?

[khun_lung]

I understand your point, but allow me to explain:

My purpose in quoting a large number of verses in the same post was to show that, according to the Bible, Jesus is God and that eternal life comes through believing in Him. I have been accused several times of interpreting Scripture in the way that I wanted and I have been accused one time of "proof texting." Listing a large number of Scriptures with little or no commentary indicates that I am not iterpreting this or that passage to suit my own personal theology and that I am not just relying on one or two verses taken out of context to prove a point.

Since there are 3 people in this thread who give some credence to the Bible (perhaps not as much as I do), I felt this was apropos.

Perhaps you see yourself as a cyber-missionary. If so, I doubt that you will have succeeded in making a single convert in a country which is 95% Buddhist. In fact you might have lost a couple of Christians along the way.

Good luck. I just pressed the "Stop following this thread" option.

[zeusbheld]

I hope that you think long and hard about censoring anyone. Even though there is terrific disagreement in this thread, apparently this thread has drawn far more attention than most threads have in the past. Even people who apparently have no thoughts on the subject post. That has to count for something.

conflict is drama, according to another old book (aristotle's "poetics").

[Tinian]

I hope that you think long and hard about censoring anyone. Even though there is terrific disagreement in this thread, apparently this thread has drawn far more attention than most threads have in the past. Even people who apparently have no thoughts on the subject post. That has to count for something.

I wish I could tell you that the reason for this long thread is because people want to discuss God or religion in a detailed and complex way. The truth, I'm afraid, is that it's because people feel very strongly about your views because they find them extreme and can't help thmeselves from showing their dislike of them... As someone said a while back, the reason for this long discussion is because they are responding to what they see as disturbing opinions on your part (which some have found offensive). It's not because (as you seem to think) people are somehow intuitively drawn to Jesus through your words... And, for me, that's why I've found this thread interesting - more for the responses and the general outlook it has shown ABOUT the kind of views you are propounding than because it is really says anything worthwhile about whether God exists or not.

But at the same time, I admire your tenacity and the way you stick by your guns! Good luck - though I think that if you do want to convert people, you maybe should use different tactics!

[cs3602001]

I have enjoyed some of the stuff on here, one thing though as I have mentioned that turns me off (so to speak) is the biblical blah blah......

We all know the bible is some 2000 years old (give or take, I am not splitting hairs), and things have changed dramatically over that time!!!!!

As I said I much prefer the simple way to God....if there is one, if I begin to complicate things my mind usually closes pretty quickly, biblical readings, to the average person (such as myself) have little meaning and make little sense, I have to keep things in this area very simple......

If I believe in God does it mean it HAS to be by the "rules" of the Bible? If I am sitting alone and feel a feeling that is personal to me and links to a belief in God is it wrong because I do not read or know the bible?

For me the answer has to be NO, I can believe in a God of my understanding and feel comfortable with it, as has been stated God is a personal thing and peoples belief is not contingent upon their knowledge/belief of the bible, scriptures, the koran or anything else for that matter..........

[zeusbheld]

I wish I could tell you that the reason for this long thread is because people want to discuss God or religion in a detailed and complex way. The truth, I'm afraid, is that it's because people feel very strongly about your views because they find them extreme and can't help thmeselves from showing their dislike of them...!

yep back to that other old book, aristotle's "poetics"... conflict = drama.

i've found it all very entertaining. there were a couple of brief stretches on tf where everyone seemed to agree on everything.

it was BORING.

[SgtPepper]

I think it is safe to say that if one was unsure about choosing christianity or buddhisim the efforts of out bible nut have convinced anyone in doubt that yes

BUDDHISM is the way to go. Buddha beats Jesus hands down

He was the first and the original Jesus was good to be sure but he basically stole alot or the ideals of buddha and rebranded them as his stuff.

The bible will eventually become one of the symbols of human superstion and ignorance and be studied as an interesting set of stories and legends that provide great material for all sorts of epic movies and dramas.

Of course in a thousand years or so I think there will still be somone playing a song like this: called funnily enough GOD

God is a concept

By which we measure

Our pain

I'll say it again

God is a concept

By which we measure

Our pain

I don't believe in magic

I don't believe in I-ching

I don't believe in Bible

I don't believe in tarot

I don't believe in Hitler

I don't believe in Jesus

I don't believe in Kennedy

I don't believe in Buddha

I don't believe in Mantra

I don't believe in Gita

I don't believe in Yoga

I don't believe in kings

I don't believe in Elvis

I don't believe in Zimmerman

I don't believe in Beatles

I just believe in me

Yoko and me

And that's reality

The dream is over

What can I say?

The dream is over

Yesterday

I was the Dreamweaver

But now I'm reborn

I was the Walrus

But now I'm John

And so dear friends

You'll just have to carry on

The dream is over

[Khun_Sam]

I have enjoyed some of the stuff on here, one thing though as I have mentioned that turns me off (so to speak) is the biblical blah blah......

We all know the bible is some 2000 years old (give or take, I am not splitting hairs), and things have changed dramatically over that time!!!!!

As I said I much prefer the simple way to God....if there is one, if I begin to complicate things my mind usually closes pretty quickly, biblical readings, to the average person (such as myself) have little meaning and make little sense, I have to keep things in this area very simple......

If I believe in God does it mean it HAS to be by the "rules" of the Bible? If I am sitting alone and feel a feeling that is personal to me and links to a belief in God is it wrong because I do not read or know the bible?

For me the answer has to be NO, I can believe in a God of my understanding and feel comfortable with it, as has been stated God is a personal thing and peoples belief is not contingent upon their knowledge/belief of the bible, scriptures, the koran or anything else for that matter..........

Geezus, I'm agreeing with you there Craig.

There IS a GOD!

[zeusbheld]

I have enjoyed some of the stuff on here, one thing though as I have mentioned that turns me off (so to speak) is the biblical blah blah......

We all know the bible is some 2000 years old (give or take, I am not splitting hairs), and things have changed dramatically over that time!!!!!

As I said I much prefer the simple way to God....if there is one, if I begin to complicate things my mind usually closes pretty quickly, biblical readings, to the average person (such as myself) have little meaning and make little sense, I have to keep things in this area very simple......

If I believe in God does it mean it HAS to be by the "rules" of the Bible? If I am sitting alone and feel a feeling that is personal to me and links to a belief in God is it wrong because I do not read or know the bible?

For me the answer has to be NO, I can believe in a God of my understanding and feel comfortable with it, as has been stated God is a personal thing and peoples belief is not contingent upon their knowledge/belief of the bible, scriptures, the koran or anything else for that matter..........

Geezus, I'm agreeing with you there Craig.

There IS a GOD!

whether or not there is a God, there is a craig.

i've seen him, but i can't prove it. all i have is blurry photos, the kind they have of loch ness monster or bigfoot or ufos... so you will all just have to accept that craig exists.

[Khun_Sam]

whether or not there is a God, there is a craig.

i've seen him, but i can't prove it. all i have is blurry photos, the kind they have of loch ness monster or bigfoot or ufos... so you will all just have to accept that craig exists.

All those jolly men who kiss in public will refute this, no doubt.

[zeusbheld]

whether or not there is a God, there is a craig.

i've seen him, but i can't prove it. all i have is blurry photos, the kind they have of loch ness monster or bigfoot or ufos... so you will all just have to accept that craig exists.

All those jolly men who kiss in public will refute this, no doubt.

or at least want to. hmmmm.... it's almost impossible to prove something does not exist.

[scutfargus]

Perhaps you see yourself as a cyber-missionary. If so, I doubt that you will have succeeded in making a single convert in a country which is 95% Buddhist. In fact you might have lost a couple of Christians along the way.

Good luck. I just pressed the "Stop following this thread" option.

As I explained earlier, you cannot lose a Christian--they might renounce their faith, they may become a Buddhist, they may decide to engage in a life of debauchery and evil--we may deny Him, but He abides faithfully, because He cannot deny Himself

[scutfargus]

I have enjoyed some of the stuff on here, one thing though as I have mentioned that turns me off (so to speak) is the biblical blah blah......

We all know the bible is some 2000 years old (give or take, I am not splitting hairs), and things have changed dramatically over that time!!!!!

This is a good point; now look at the flip side--why would a 2000 year old book be considered so relevant by so many?

As I said I much prefer the simple way to God....if there is one,...

What could be simpler than believe in Jesus Christ? As Jesus said, "Do not let your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me." (John 14:1)

... if I begin to complicate things my mind usually closes pretty quickly, biblical readings, to the average person (such as myself) have little meaning and make little sense, I have to keep things in this area very simple......

When it comes to reading the Bible, it is difficult for the person who is curious to know where to start. I have always thought that the book of John is the best place for someone to start. It is easy to read (even in the Greek, it is simple), there are no genealogies, no long lists of laws or regulations, and much of it is narrative or talking...mostly easy to follow. For most people, if you read the first several chapters and don't feel as though you are being spoken to, then you might as well put it down.

If I believe in God does it mean it HAS to be by the "rules" of the Bible? If I am sitting alone and feel a feeling that is personal to me and links to a belief in God is it wrong because I do not read or know the bible?

For me the answer has to be NO, I can believe in a God of my understanding and feel comfortable with it, as has been stated God is a personal thing and peoples belief is not contingent upon their knowledge/belief of the bible, scriptures, the koran or anything else for that matter..........

When you look inside to find God, you are just making God in your own image; the end result is self-worship. As the Bible says, There is a way that seems right to a man, but the logical end of that is death

[scutfargus]

I think it is safe to say that if one was unsure about choosing christianity or buddhisim the efforts of out bible nut have convinced anyone in doubt that yes

BUDDHISM is the way to go. Buddha beats Jesus hands down

He was the first and the original Jesus was good to be sure but he basically stole alot or the ideals of buddha and rebranded them as his stuff.

The bible will eventually become one of the symbols of human superstion and ignorance and be studied as an interesting set of stories and legends that provide great material for all sorts of epic movies and dramas.

I have quite a library and I have several books which "refute the Bible" etc. etc. The authors say that their book will, once and for all, invalidate the Bible. Can't find the books. The authors have now been permanently invalidated. I think there are books written back as early as the Age of Englightenment which were designed to refute Scripture. I don't know whether these books are still even available in print (although they might be online); Bible still outsells any book ever written.