is there a God?

[WiCKeDBiRD]

Went to Heaven a few times today.... 8) :wink:

Didnt manage to see God there... :shock:

Well well... next time then.

[Loburt]

buddhism was in fact the first proselytizing religion.

I sincerely doubt that. Most states or civilizations, even before Buddha's time, forced the peoples they conquered to convert to their religion. Buddha may have been the first not to use force to do it. But even that would be difficult to establish as a certainty, and is, in my opinion, unlikely.

the thai buddhists you see being "made to renounce" their religion today, were not always buddhist. most of their ancestors were coerced to abandon their spirit worship through subtle social, economic, and political pressures applied by a very powerful Buddhist state. as recently as 1975, the Thai government trained buddhist monks to convert left-leaning animist hill tribes to the pure "Democratic" Dhamma.

if you go back far enough, all our ancestors were coerced or convinced to discard whatever ancient, pagan or animist religion they followed in favor of the religions that have since come into existence.

There is very little about the Thai state that can be described as Buddhist. No matter what those who represent the state say.

[CiaranM]

There is very little about the Thai state that can be described as Buddhist. No matter what those who represent the state say.

good points Loburt, haven't quoted it all .... i think as i've said before if buddha, jesus or mohammed came back today it's doubtful if they would recognise what is being preached/pacticed in their names !!!

[scutfargus]

what about the ppl who for centuries or milenia never even heard of jesus christ ? are they all going to burn in hell with the rest of us poor unsaved souls ??

This is a common question and most people use it as another excuse not to believe. When you hear the answer, it won't change your mind.

God is omniscient. He can look into every soul and see which way their volition will go. If you have a son, and you know your son well, you can often figure out what they are going to do in this situation or that situation. That is an imperfect illlustration as to how God can look into our souls. There is an abundance of Scripture about how God can see the inner man, if you need me to quote it.

If a person comes to God-consciousness (that is, realizes that there may or may not be a God), God knows how that person will respond to Jesus Christ. If a person is going to respond negatively, God does not have to provide that person with any information, as His character is not at issue. God does provide the gospel to people who are negative as an example, but He does not owe them an explanation as to Who and What Jesus Christ is.

So, there are pockets of people who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and it is because God does not owe them the gospel--God already knows how they will react. However, any time a person is positive at God consciousness--actually wants to know more about God, then God owes that person the gospel, and God will get it to him. There are innumerable stories of missionaries going deep into this or that country, and have a tremendous response. However, if there is just one person in that country who is positive toward Him, then God will send a missionary in for that one person.

Now, by positive toward God, I do not mean someone who plans to look deep within himself to discover God. That is simply self-worship.

For your next question, which you have not asked yet, if a person does not reach God consciousness, then there is no issue here--that person is automatically saved. That is why, when David's young son died, David stopped grieving and said, "He will not come to me, but I will go to him." (or words to that effect; I am doing this from memory, as usual).

[scutfargus]

Now this is an interesting point, I would genuinelly like to hear your views on this scuts.

Come Judgement Day how will these people be dealt with? I mean for example people who have never had the opportunity to be introduced to Christianity in any way shape or form, are they handed the "blame"?

Interesting question....

People are under the mistaken impression that they will die for their sins. That is illogical. There is but one sin that Jesus did not die for and that is the choice a person makes not to believe in Jesus Christ. That is the only sin for which Christ did not die. Every other sin has been paid for--past, present and future. However, the basis for any person's indictment will be their good works. Rev. 20

I know many people in this thread just fawn all over Jesus as being such a good man and a good person and teacher, but Jesus spoke of hell and the Lake of Fire and eternal burning more than any other person in the entire Bible...and I don't just mean once or twice or three times. There is a reason for this--Jesus Christ was the only person who could speak about the Lake of Fire with authority, as He will cast everyone who does not believe in Him into the Lake of Fire (I can provide an abundance of Scripture for this--like all fundamental doctrines, there are tons of passages Old and New Testament which support this). Jesus Christ provided salvation for everyone. To spend eternity with Jesus, it takes about 5 seconds out of your life. A Buddhist who believes in Jesus Christ is saved. A person who attends a fundamentalist church all his life until his death is not saved if he does not believe in Jesus.

Before you die, you have the choice of spending eternity with Buddha or with Jesus Christ. After your death, even if you had a choice, you would not choose eternity with God. That is a mater of simple logic--if you don't want to spend even 5 seconds of your life facing Who and What God is, then you will not want to spend eternity with God.

[scutfargus]

Scutfargus:

Ever look in the eyes of woman and see God? What an exquisite of work of rapture is a woman, how does any man-made thing compare?

Maybe then you understand the fall of Adam more than anyone else here. Adam was in love with the woman. There was no one else for him--literally. When he saw the woman, who had been deceived, offering him the fruit of the forbidden tree, he fully understood the choice he was making. He chose the woman over God.

In the original garden, there was one tree that Adam could not eat from, as that indicated negative volition toward God. Now, we have quite the opposite situation--there is one tree that we must express positive volition towards, and that is the cross. By the way, remember it is Jesus Who said, "How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it." (Matt. 7:14).

I assume you are a missionary so I pose a question-

Why do farang missionaries go to the four corners of the globe and try to make natives remounce the mask of god which suits them, in order to put on a farang mask - ours - in its place :?:

Christian missionaries have come out of Judah, Rome, Ireland, Scotland, England, Spain and the United States (these are countries that I have a smattering of a recollection of their history in relationship to Jesus Christ). Some have been horrible missionaries who did not really bring the message of Jesus Christ but simply imposed their culture over where they went. Missionaries have sin natures just like anyone else; some are good and a lot are not. I am not a prophet, but let me predict that most of you will see a great change in the United States and some other country (maybe South Korea?) in our lifetimes. You will see fewer and fewer missionaries come out of the US, and you will see the churches popping up somewhere else entirely. Just a guess on my part, but that seems to be the way this culture is heading.

A good missionary presents Jesus Christ alone, and does his best not to impose his culture everywhere he goes. A good missionary, once people have been saved, then helps to train indigenous pastors to teach their own people. That is the ideal.

And, in case I missed the gist of your question, let me make another stab at it. Jesus Christ is God and Jesus Christ died for your sins. Buddha did not nor did Mohammed. This is why a different God is presented to other lands. And don't forget, Jesus and the Apostles are all of middle eastern descent. They are all Semitic and came from the other side of the world from me. Therefore, ultimately, I was evangelized by western Asia, if you will. If I wanted to believe in a truly "western" religion, I'd have to choose Mormonism or some "Christian" cult which has its origins here in the US. The gospel of Jesus Christ had its origins in Jerusalem, Judah, and Samaria.

[scutfargus]

Why do we educate our children with all this stuff that we cant, by definition, have any clue about?

Excellent point; hence my problem with "educating" (actually, brainwashing) people about evolution.

The result is people like Scutfargus - whose mind is closed to the beauty and mysteries of this world. Worse... it is the same type of programming that leads to 'enlightened' individuals jumping into a plane and ploughing it into the WTC all in the name of their particular God.

I guess you have read maybe 3 or 4 of my posts? I was not raised a Christian. The church I spent the most time in (Unity) as a youth would probably be very much in line with the thinking of most everyone here. In that church, you could believe in almost anything except the Savior Jesus Christ. My pastor was a woman who wore a low-cut dress to teach in (I recall that definitely from my youth). This was pretty rare for the 50's and 60's. My mindset from an early age was, I definitely believed in evolution (although I sort of combined it with the Bible, as some do). And, the first few times I heard the gospel, I rejected outright, and was pissed off at the people who presented it to me.

And saying that a deeply held belief is the exact same as those who flew into the twin towers is ludicrous. It is estimated that 75-95% of what you "know" is based upon belief; it is not based upon you carefully researching all of the facts. Now, maybe your faith is in your parents, in school books, in the integrity of scientists, in this or that political party or system; and you may think that your faith is well-placed, but don't ever kid yourself--you have not investigated everything you believe in. In all reality, you have investigated little or nothing of what you believe in with an open mind. The closest you come to investigating your most fundamental beliefs in this or that, is you find a website or a book with agrees with you and quote from that. Or you read it and feel assured, "Yes, it's right here. I knew I was right all along!" (you may not use those exact words).

I have been told over and over in this thread how closed my mind is. Yes, I am dogmatic in my beliefs...but I can guarantee you, I did a 180 degree turn in my beliefs far beyond the age of my impressionable youth. At this point in time, yes, I am definitely a little more settled in what I believe.

Anyone who has any understanding of the difference between the Old and New Testaments knows that Christians are not called upon by God to go out and kill anyone (they might be called upon by their nation to do this--and I don't just mean as a soldier; as a juror, you can potentially be a part of someone else's death). But, as a Christian, as a representative of God, we are not ever called upon to go out and kill off this or that group of people, no matter how heathenistic they are. Every person on this earth is a person for whom Christ died.

[robbie36]

Now this is an interesting point, I would genuinelly like to hear your views on this scuts.

Wait a second, there is a queue of questions that we are waiting for Scartfargus to answer and he hasnt answered any of my questions yet.

I think he should take our questions in order it is only fair. Perhaps he should just give some quick answers - even 'I dont know' would be fine.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Do angels use their wings for show or to fly?

Is there beer in heaven and what about sex?

Or do we just hang around all day singing halleluyah?

This virgin birth sounds like crap. Having a kid without sex - hardly a miracle, sounds like a frigging disaster. Can you explain?

And yeah did Jesus have sex? If so, with whom?

When God created the earth how come he didnt think of the mobile phone? Its bloody useful you know and comes in handy when spreading the word?

Jesus I've got a lot of questions (see I am already beginning to believe in Him). So as I understand it all I have to do is believe in JC and God and then I get this everlasting life thing.

Could you expand on that a little?

I mean how long before I die do I need to believe in Him for? Is 2 minutes good enough? And if I believe in Him for a little longer will I get a better house or something? And are there any other make believe things I need to Believe in - you know Yahweh, tooth fairies, Muhammed, Zeus, the rain God, Adam and Eve, Creationism? I am thinking that maybe I should hedge my bets.

Many thanks for your continued assistance.

P.S. Bloody good news on the Sins thing. I was under the impression that I was supposed to be good. Quite frankly it is all a bit of a relief.

[WiCKeDBiRD]

[scutfargus]

Jesus I've got a lot of questions (see I am already beginning to believe in Him). So as I understand it all I have to do is believe in JC and God and then I get this everlasting life thing.

yes

[eagle]

Jesus I've got a lot of questions (see I am already beginning to believe in Him). So as I understand it all I have to do is believe in JC and God and then I get this everlasting life thing.

yes

thats so cheesy ! does that come with a warrenty. I'm waiting for the full warrenty

[scutfargus]

If it's the same Unity Church that is headquartered 40 miles from where I used to live (Missouri) than you have no need to question your roots in Christianity. The Unity Church is very much steeped in Christ. In fact, the founder of the Unity Church, Myrtle Fillmore, became popular because she supposedly could channel her faith in Jesus Christ so as to heal people.

scut, no need to pretend you were born a pagan and at a more mature stage in your life saw the Light. If you have faith in something that looks ridiculous to us, just admit it right out and stop putting on a show.

Never pretended to be born a pagan. I told you exactly the sort of church I was brought up in. The ideals of the church are very similar to what are espoused here by other participants in this thread.

And I doubt most Christians would want any one Christian being their spokesman on issues such as salvation and the origins of man. Christianity is much more diverse than scut's literal form. for example:

So, I should be barred from expressing an opinion? You would be in line with the unity church. I could go in there with great reverence for Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed, and I would be accepted. If I expressed that faith alone in Christ alone as the only way to eternal life, well, I'd get a response from them like I got from you.

[SgtPepper]

JESUS SAVES

but MARADONNA

scores

[WiCKeDBiRD]

Jesus I've got a lot of questions (see I am already beginning to believe in Him). So as I understand it all I have to do is believe in JC and God and then I get this everlasting life thing.

yes

thats so cheesy ! does that come with a warrenty. I'm waiting for the full warrenty

Could we have the full warrenty in the contract that...

Prada, Jimmy Choo & Manolo Blahnik boutiques will be available in Heaven by the time I get there ?

Always being Stylish .. Here on Earth or in Heaven.. 8) :wink:

[robbie36]

So, I should be barred from expressing an opinion?

Of course Scutfargus should be allowed to express his opinion but, in the same way, I am allowed to express my opinion that Scutfargus's beliefs are absurd, stupid and dangerous.

Stupid.... because it is ridiculous to have strong beliefs in anything for which there is no reasonable evidence of its existence.

Dangerous.... because Scartfargus believes that he can do anything and he will still enjoy everlasting life with Jesus. By definition that means that he honestly believes that if he climbed in a plane and ploughed it into the WTC, he would enjoy everlasting life. Now he is highly unlikely to actually do that but given that he has convinced himself of one absurd and stupid belief who is to say he wouldnt convince himself of another one.

Now I dont think that Scartfargus should be locked up as a danger to mankind, I see him more as a victim. I believe however that rather than respecting peoples religious beliefs we should expose their absurdity. Noone thinks it is right to go arounding preaching the extermination of the Jews, how can it be right to go around preaching that you can do anything and still enjoy everlasting life?

[cs3602001]

Now this is an interesting point, I would genuinelly like to hear your views on this scuts.

Come Judgement Day how will these people be dealt with? I mean for example people who have never had the opportunity to be introduced to Christianity in any way shape or form, are they handed the "blame"?

Interesting question....

Back to the question, I do not want to split hairs here or analyse wordings, I am genuinely interested to know how people who have never had the opportunity to be introduced will be dealt with when they die.

I think you probably explained most of this in your reply to Cairan, in that God knows how people will react to the Jesus, based on this knowledge GOD will not find a way to introdude them to the Gospel.......I think I got this right??

Regarding Jesus and misconceptions, I like to keep things simple and to the point, ie: the question at hand.

One thing I will say, let's take Angels (Gods Messengers) as an example. Often depicted as lovely winged beings who grant love, care and protection.....but have a closer look....Angels serve as messengers to communicate GOD'S WILL and as we know God's Will has on many occasions been God's Wrath.....

[scutfargus]

Jesus I've got a lot of questions (see I am already beginning to believe in Him). So as I understand it all I have to do is believe in JC and God and then I get this everlasting life thing.

yes

PROVE IT.

Jesus said, "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world [1st advent], but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:17-18

Jesus said, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that testify about Me. However, you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life...for if you had believed Moses, then you would believe Me, for he wrote of Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" John 5:39-40, 46-47

Jesus said, "For this is the will of My Father that every one who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Mysefl will raise him up on the last day." John 6:40

I can fill an entire page of this forum with this same message. When it comes to a fundamental doctrine, the Bible is quite clear, from Genesis to Revelation, as to what is true. When it comes to Jesus dying of the cross for our sins as the Lamb without spot and without blemish, where there are Old Testament Scriptures which give even a more detailed depiction of the cross--this is all fundamental to Scripture. I do not base this opinion on 1 or 2 "proof tests" nor am I the first person to come up with this. People who claim to use the Bible as a guide, but ignore this truth of the death of Jesus Christ for our sins, preach another Jesus as Paul warns.

[scutfargus]

Scutfargus,

No book ever carried wisdom: books cary knowledge. The only wisdon you can gain is that which comes from within. The teacher you claim to admire, Jesus the Christ, acheived wisdom, his book is just words.

All your words are a waste of time unless they are used - put into action. Unless you are just interested in being amused. Sometimes words are pretty and poetic. Iif you are not intersted in action, why bother to spend many hours in discussion?

knowledge can be yours only as sickness and health is yours, not by hearsay notions but by the fruits of your own perceptions.

You don't think that I would disagree with any of that, do you?

[WiCKeDBiRD]

I still didn't see the proof, u are still just quoting from a fairytale, which you as a 3 years old kid looking snow white seem as a preoven fact

Errrrrr whats wrong with believing in Snow-white :shock:

[scutfargus]

So, I should be barred from expressing an opinion?

Of course Scutfargus should be allowed to express his opinion but, in the same way, I am allowed to express my opinion that Scutfargus's beliefs are absurd, stupid and dangerous.

Stupid.... because it is ridiculous to have strong beliefs in anything for which there is no reasonable evidence of its existence.

If you do not think that you do not hold some basic fundamental beliefs for which you have no proof, then you do not know yourself very well.

Furthermore, in this thread, I have provided more evidence for what I believe than anyone else has. I have given secular and nonsecular evidence. Therefore, I guess you are saying that even though I am stupid, everyone else is more so? Follow out your reasoning once and awhile. I think what you did was come out with the first thing that came into your head "stupid, dangerous and absurd" and then had to go back and justify your insults.

Dangerous.... because Scartfargus believes that he can do anything and he will still enjoy everlasting life with Jesus. By definition that means that he honestly believes that if he climbed in a plane and ploughed it into the WTC, he would enjoy everlasting life. Now he is highly unlikely to actually do that but given that he has convinced himself of one absurd and stupid belief who is to say he wouldnt convince himself of another one.

When I believed in Jesus Christ, I became a son of God, as I am in Christ. This makes me liable to divine discipline, which I was not subject to before. Furthermore, I live in a society of laws, and even as a Christian, when I break the law, I cannot do so with impugnity. So your argument that I am dangerous is without merit.

Now I dont think that Scartfargus should be locked up as a danger to mankind, I see him more as a victim. I believe however that rather than respecting peoples religious beliefs we should expose their absurdity. Noone thinks it is right to go arounding preaching the extermination of the Jews, how can it be right to go around preaching that you can do anything and still enjoy everlasting life?

So, you equate someone teaching that we should exterminate Jews with me, when I quote Jesus, about eternal life comes through believing in Him. And I can give ample quotations from Jesus about eternal security (that is, once you believe in Jesus, that is it--that seals your eternal life).

My salvation is not based upon any meritorious thing that I have done or ever will do. My salvation is based upon what Jesus Christ did on the cross. My salvation is free to me, as it is free to you; it was not free to Jesus. It takes only a few seconds to take it.

Like the illustration I gave before, if Donald Trump showed up at your front door and handed you a check for $10 million, most of us would haul that check down to the bank and deposit it, even if we thought we were being punked.

That is what Jesus Christ is doing--He is handing you a check for eternal life. God respects your volition and you can reject Him for your entire life if you so choose. But, like every other choice you make, this daily choice of rejecting Christ has its consequences. Don't go crying to anyone that you did not have the chance or that you do not have a choice--you know damn well that you do. You just think if you can offer up a good enough argument, you aren't responsible for your choice. Not true.

[scutfargus]

Back to the question, I do not want to split hairs here or analyse wordings, I am genuinely interested to know how people who have never had the opportunity to be introduced will be dealt with when they die.

I think you probably explained most of this in your reply to Cairan, in that God knows how people will react to the Jesus, based on this knowledge GOD will not find a way to introdude them to the Gospel.......I think I got this right??

In the Bible, there is no differentiation between those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire who heard and rejected the gospel and those who did not hear, but would have rejected the gospel had they heard. The Bible never divides them up into neat little sets like this.

I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them. I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15).

Jesus stands before us as our Savior or as our Judge.

One thing I will say, let's take Angels (Gods Messengers) as an example. Often depicted as lovely winged beings who grant love, care and protection.....but have a closer look....Angels serve as messengers to communicate GOD'S WILL and as we know God's Will has on many occasions been God's Wrath.....

You are acutally right on all of these counts. Insofar as we can tell from the Hebrew, there do appear to be wings. There is the notion of guardian angels, which I believe in, but could not immediately justify from the Bible.

Most (if not all) of the time angels came and spoke about the wrath of God, usually it was a warning, and time was given to those who were warned.

I am going a little far afield here, but the degeneracy of some cultures was unbelievable, and the Bible only hints at this. However, what we have uncovered with archeology is that some ancient religious had this statue of Molech (I believe I am recalling the god's name correctly) would had his arms out and he would be heated by fire and then people would come and lay their live babies onto his heated arms for them to die as a sacrifice to Molech. This may help to explain why God required some ancient peoples to be wiped out.

[CiaranM]

what about the ppl who for centuries or milenia never even heard of jesus christ ? are they all going to burn in hell with the rest of us poor unsaved souls ??

God is omniscient. He can look into every soul and see which way their volition will go. If you have a son, and you know your son well, you can often figure out what they are going to do in this situation or that situation. That is an imperfect illlustration as to how God can look into our souls. There is an abundance of Scripture about how God can see the inner man, if you need me to quote it.

If a person comes to God-consciousness (that is, realizes that there may or may not be a God), God knows how that person will respond to Jesus Christ. If a person is going to respond negatively, God does not have to provide that person with any information, as His character is not at issue. God does provide the gospel to people who are negative as an example, but He does not owe them an explanation as to Who and What Jesus Christ is.

So, there are pockets of people who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and it is because God does not owe them the gospel--God already knows how they will react. However, any time a person is positive at God consciousness--actually wants to know more about God, then God owes that person the gospel, and God will get it to him. There are innumerable stories of missionaries going deep into this or that country, and have a tremendous response. However, if there is just one person in that country who is positive toward Him, then God will send a missionary in for that one person.

Now, by positive toward God, I do not mean someone who plans to look deep within himself to discover God. That is simply self-worship.

For your next question, which you have not asked yet, if a person does not reach God consciousness, then there is no issue here--that person is automatically saved. That is why, when David's young son died, David stopped grieving and said, "He will not come to me, but I will go to him." (or words to that effect; I am doing this from memory, as usual).

i have got to say that is without doubt the biggest load of f**king bollocks i have ever heard in my life regarding god/christ and believe me i have heard some crap in my life

u know now u r starting to tell us what god thinks and why he has decided to do the things he has .... unbelieveable.

according to u, god knows how we ALL will react to him/jesus. so why bother with life at all. he could decide before we r born who will go to heaven and who will go to hell and just transfer ppl straight there. would save a lot of f**king around.

and would have saved himself 6 days work !!!

[cs3602001]

Back to the question, I do not want to split hairs here or analyse wordings, I am genuinely interested to know how people who have never had the opportunity to be introduced will be dealt with when they die.

I think you probably explained most of this in your reply to Cairan, in that God knows how people will react to the Jesus, based on this knowledge GOD will not find a way to introdude them to the Gospel.......I think I got this right??

In the Bible, there is no differentiation between those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire who heard and rejected the gospel and those who did not hear, but would have rejected the gospel had they heard. The Bible never divides them up into neat little sets like this.

I think you misunderstood a little what I was asking and what I was trying to get across.

The question was raised about pockets of people around the world who have never had the opportunity to see anythign except their own village and surroundings, isolated places where they still live fromt he land etc, never seen anyone from a culture/creed other than their own.

I am asking...the reason they have never been introduced is because God knows that they would react negatively to the gospel so does not make it available to them by missionary etc? (In simple terms)

Am I right in this?

[robbie36]

If you do not think that you do not hold some basic fundamental beliefs for which you have no proof, then you do not know yourself very well.

This is one of those arguments for religion that is most absurd. Everyone must have a 'faith' based set of values, so mine are just as good as yours.

Why cant someone have a set of values that are directly proportional to the proof and reject faith altogether?

I believe the world is round. I might be wrong but it seems fairly clear so I tend to believe in it quite strongly.

I believe that if you hear hooves clip clopping down the high street it is likely to be a horse. It might turn out to be a zebra or even a unicorn but before we assume it is anything but a horse, we should at least require a minimum amount of evidence.

Now if it comes to a God or no God theory I am naturally going to assume there is no God. What I fail to see is the argument that I should respect other peoples faiths. If people want to believe in things for which there is no proof of existence that is up to them - Gods, afterlifes, tooth fairies, goblins, UFOs, abduction by aliens etc - I just dont see why I am supposed to respect these beliefs.

PS. Sadly Scartfargus thinks we are arguing with him rather than at him. Atheists are keen to show him up as a shining example of how seemingly intelligent people can believe totally absurd things while theists are trying to distance themselves as far as possible.

[CiaranM]

Unfortunately the nag hammadi texts present the universe as a non-created phenomenon and paint Jehova (your God) as a dark demiurge who raped Eve in the garden thereby producing 2unique. (demented and deranged demiurge indeed).

hey so that's where Jay came from ... sounds a damm sight more plausible that the crap scutfargus is peddling