is there a God?

[khun_lung]

Right here, right now, there is but one god. Admin!

Pray to Him and you will be rewarded. Break Admin's rules and you will be banned to hell. The choice is yours.

[johnno]

Moderator Warning

Religion and Philosophy is a potentially volatile forum with threads that tend to be controversial. People who post here tend to have deep-seated feelings and opinions.

You can attack someone's opinion all you want, but you can not attack them personally.

That includes name calling, or making fun of people's names.

Stick to the issues.

*TF USER WARNING TO LOBURT*

don't piss me off loburt or i'll be reporting you to your mate TOM, the admin for harrassment

if his real name was johnny and i called him smelly johnny, yes, then i am naughty

his TF user name, note, not his real name, is scutfargus

he is full of hot air, not just my opinion, read the posts by other TF users here. so i think my calling him "fartygas" was appropriate

but hey, your are the moderate moderator and if you feel the need to issue me with a warning for "name calling", then fine. but please make sure that you are consistant. i look forward to no more name calling here on TF.

[eagle]

Right here, right now, there is but one god. Admin!

Pray to Him and you will be rewarded. Break Admin's rules and you will be banned to hell. The choice is yours.

Its an empty threat ppl......all it is, is a sin bin.......and ur never in there for longer than a decade (in weasel years)

*******warning****** calling years weasel years is name calling **********

[khun_lung]

Moderator Warning

Religion and Philosophy is a potentially volatile forum with threads that tend to be controversial. People who post here tend to have deep-seated feelings and opinions.

You can attack someone's opinion all you want, but you can not attack them personally.

That includes name calling, or making fun of people's names.

Stick to the issues.

Agreed 100% Lobert.

[johnno]

Agreed 100% Lobert.

yeah, you would agree khun lung. oh, whats that brown thing in your mouth?

oh, its your tongue

but i love you like a brother so please don't snitch to loburt about me 8) :shock:

[eagle]

Right here, right now, there is but one god. Admin!

Pray to Him and you will be rewarded. Break Admin's rules and you will be banned to hell. The choice is yours.

Its an empty threat ppl......all it is, is a sin bin.......and ur never in there for longer than a decade (in weasel years)

*******warning****** calling years weasel years is name calling **********

What are you gonna do? Tell ur mommy?

years is related to father time and therefore has a valid persona that falls under the guiding rules that have been placed on us all here buy the mods warning.******you have been warned*******

[khun_lung]

Agreed 100% Lobert.

yeah, you would agree khun lung. oh, whats that brown thing in your mouth?

oh, its your tongue

but i love you like a brother so please don't snitch to loburt about me 8) :shock:

Well, johnno, I've never responded to any of your personal insults to me until now. If you're such a good friend of Tom (Admin), does that explain why you are still here?

C'mon man, get a life! I've nothing against you so what's your beef with me?

[eagle]

Agreed 100% Lobert.

yeah, you would agree khun lung. oh, whats that brown thing in your mouth?

oh, its your tongue

but i love you like a brother so please don't snitch to loburt about me 8) :shock:

Well, johnno, I've never responded to any of your personal insults to me until now. If you're such a good friend of Tom (Admin), does that explain why you are still here?

C'mon man, get a life! I've nothing against you so what's your beef with me?

that brown thing wasn't beef *****playground quarrel warning*****

[johnno]

hahaha. i think i have been told off (again)

twice in one day by 2 different people is too much for me

i'm out of here to try to find a life or hit a golf ball

mmmmmm i think i'll go hit a golf ball instead

i quite like the life i have now 8) :shock:

[scutfargus]

Are you just adding a comment? I think not! You are speaking in platitudes about the supremacy of your version of God and the inferiority of other's beliefs. In my humble opinion, I find neo-conservative Christianity to be lacking depth. But bless you if it fills your heart I have no interest in converting anyone to believe what I believe. The path to God is the path of your own heart.

Quite interesting that when I express my opinion, there is just something wrong with doing that. However, when others express theirs, completely apart from any evidence and often knowledge, that's okay in your book.

I LOVE the new tolerance. It means tolerance for everyone except someone like me.

Yes, I have a bias against close-minded people. :roll: I think your form of religion is the Taliban of Christianity. I like Buddhist teachings because Buddha urged people to investigate things -- he didn't just command them to believe.

I understand that you are open minded--to everything except for the truth. That is normal.

By the way, I followed Buddha's advice to investigate, and I found out that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me."

I guess you assume, simply because I am Christian, that I have not spent any amount of time investigating anything? Do you think I was born a Christian? No one is born a Christian. NO ONE. It is something a person must choose. A person must choose Jesus Christ one time in their lives or that person must reject Jesus Christ for every moment of their lives. What many religious types do, as we have seen in this column and others, is make Christ into their own image. What He says is ignored or disparaged, with the exception of a half a dozen quotes, most of which are misinterpreted.

You can follow Buddha, who is a man; or you can follow Christ, Who is God. It is up to you to choose for yourself.

[eagle]

Are you just adding a comment? I think not! You are speaking in platitudes about the supremacy of your version of God and the inferiority of other's beliefs. In my humble opinion, I find neo-conservative Christianity to be lacking depth. But bless you if it fills your heart I have no interest in converting anyone to believe what I believe. The path to God is the path of your own heart.

Quite interesting that when I express my opinion, there is just something wrong with doing that. However, when others express theirs, completely apart from any evidence and often knowledge, that's okay in your book.

I LOVE the new tolerance. It means tolerance for everyone except someone like me.

Yes, I have a bias against close-minded people. :roll: I think your form of religion is the Taliban of Christianity. I like Buddhist teachings because Buddha urged people to investigate things -- he didn't just command them to believe.

I understand that you are open minded--to everything except for the truth. That is normal.

By the way, I followed Buddha's advice to investigate, and I found out that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me."

I guess you assume, simply because I am Christian, that I have not spent any amount of time investigating anything? Do you think I was born a Christian? No one is born a Christian. NO ONE. It is something a person must choose. A person must choose Jesus Christ one time in their lives or that person must reject Jesus Christ for every moment of their lives. What many religious types do, as we have seen in this column and others, is make Christ into their own image. What He says is ignored or disparaged, with the exception of a half a dozen quotes, most of which are misinterpreted.

You can follow Buddha, who is a man; or you can follow Christ, Who is God. It is up to you to choose for yourself.

everyone is intolerant except you right. NO one can get to the right hand of god the father except thru you right as we have to believe what YOU say !!

so Jesus was better then Buddha cause he was in tight with god huh :roll:

Man you are an ancient relic of ignorance ,

that was not name calling that was a discription :twisted:

[scutfargus]

Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Maybe He knows something about it?

Jesus Christ is God. Maybe He knows something about life and death?

how do U know jesus rose from the dead ?? any scientific proof of this ? or r u basing this on word of mouth from ohhhhhh 2,000 years ago.

who says jesus is god. can u prove this in any way ??

why don't u piss off to some street corner and preach to the winos and hookers and leave us alone.

there is NO evidence to prove god exists and no evidence to prove that jesus was god. if u want to believe that fine, but quit preaching to us and get a f**king life.

that wasn't too bad loburt .... was it ?? originally was going to be a lot f**king worse, believe me !!

C, you seem so mad all of the time. But, you want evidence, I will give you evidence:

First of all, we have the evidence of 4 eyewitness historians: Matthew, John, Peter, and Paul. Secondly, we have no literature from that time period which disputes the resurrection of Jesus. Christians were hated and martyred in those days, and logic, although it had its heyday a few hundred years previous, was still being practiced. This would have been a perfect opportunity for an ancient historian or an ancient religious type to dispute the resurrection of Jesus. However, even though we have a huge number of documents from that general time period, we have NO ONE from that time period which disputes the claim of the Apostles, that Christ rose from the dead.

Then we have the psychological witness of the Apostles. These Apostles were not known for their bravery. When Jesus Christ was arrested, they all (except for John and Peter) ran off, afraid for their lives. Peter later verbally rejected Christ, and walked off, disgusted with himself.

Then, Jesus arose from the dead. This changed everything. The conviction of the Apostles did a 180 degree turn. All of a sudden, these Apostles, in the face of all kinds of persecution, proclaimed Christ, and Him risen from the dead. All of the Apostles died martyr's deaths. Now, you will counter, "Every religion has its martyrs." Not the same thing. These men saw the risen Christ. They were willing to die in the name of Jesus. Do you think these men are all lying about what they saw? Do you think they are all willing to die for what they know is a lie? It does not fit their psychological profile to be willing to die for a cause in the first place; must less for a cause they know to be false. The only other reasonable explanation is, they died for what they knew to be true.

You can reject Jesus all you wish; but don't pretend that it is based upon reason or based upon something that you spent time thinking about.

Let me make you the same offer I made Eagle, if you are willing to read "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" then I will buy you a copy and send it to you.

[scutfargus]

i would like scutfargus to answer a couple of very simple questions ..

1. does he believe u must be a christian to get to heaven ?

2. does he believe all non-christians go to hell ?

i don't care what god, jesus or the bible says, just two simple answers to two simple questions.

I do care what Jesus says, so I will quote Him:

Jesus: "God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and menloved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his deeds are not exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been done in God."

Peter (an eyewitness to Jesus' resurrection): "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."

Paul (an eyewitness to Jesus' resurrection): "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

John (an eyewitness to Jesus' resurrection): These things are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

Now, I know you want to go off on some tangent about everyone else who has not heard the gospel, and what about this or that person who hasn't heard. Even though there are answers for that, you have heard. The only person who can make a decision for you is you. Make up any excuse that you want, but you have a choice to make. I can't make that choice for you, I can only make it clear to you what that choice is.

[scutfargus]

i would like scutfargus to answer a couple of very simple questions ..

1. does he believe u must be a christian to get to heaven ?

2. does he believe all non-christians go to hell ?

i don't care what god, jesus or the bible says, just two simple answers to two simple questions.

2. Do you believe that non-christians will go to hell?

I think I once read in the bibble that IF you are a christian and you knew someone who was apparently worshiping false idols, you should tell them that its wrong to do that coz if you dont you go to hell.....

So to me, basically religion was made up to scare people, and in a way give us morals......

Correct me if I'm wrong....(feel free)

Once you have believed in Jesus Christ, you cannot lose your salvation. There is now no judgment (or condemnation) for those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1).

You are saved through faith, not by works, because salvation is the gift of God. You are not saved by your works, so no man can boast (Eph. 2:8-9)

Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law perfectly, something we cannot do. We are saved based upon what Jesus has done, not based upon anything meritorious that we have done or will do (including warning people about idols).

Once you have believed in Jesus Christ, you cannot lose your salvation, because it is His work we have depended upon, not ours.

Since salvation is free, since it is not based upon your works, since it is not based upon some lifetime commitment, since it is not based upon you giving up this or that; I would think that even the most unreasonable person reading this would say to himself, "You know, I don't buy into any of this, but why not take a chance and believe?" After all, salvation for us is free.

You must push Jesus away every moment of your life to spend eternity apart from Him. You must spend a few seconds believing in Him if you want to spend eternity with Him. It is a very simple decision--do you want to spend eternity with Jesus or not?

[scutfargus]

NO one can get to the right hand of god the father except thru you right as we have to believe what YOU say !!

I guess you have not been reading my posts? It is not what I say, it is what Jesus says:

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."

so Jesus was better then Buddha cause he was in tight with god huh :roll:

Jesus was better than Buddha because Buddha was a man (which he has affirmed) and now he is dead; Jesus is God, and He is alive (which He has affirmed as well).

John 14:8 Philip said to Jesus, "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us."

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know Me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. So why do you say, 'Show us the Father?'

[Tinian]

Since salvation is free, since it is not based upon your works, since it is not based upon some lifetime commitment, since it is not based upon you giving up this or that; I would think that even the most unreasonable person reading this would say to himself, "You know, I don't buy into any of this, but why not take a chance and believe?" After all, salvation for us is free.

How can someone 'not buy into any of this' and at the same time also 'believe'? Seems an inherent contradiction there. Smacks of ironing out creases that just can't be ironed out. What you're REALLY saying is: 'come on, take the risk of being a christian, and once you're in the club, you'll see that it's all true'. The big problem with your above words is that anyone from any religion could say the same things; that's fine in itself but you don't seem to be aware of that - anyone from any religion can say: 'why not just take the chance of believing; it's worth it, you know!' In that sense, who's to say which path is more 'worth it'? Surely we need something a little more than rhetoric and emotional blackmail to understand the reasons for faith or spiritual practice. Or perhaps not...

[cs3602001]

All of you.....especially the old *****, shut the **** up.

The world is ruled by reptoids....3rd Dimensional reptilian shape shifters are amongst us, they are controlled by 4th dimensional reptilians who instruct them on the strategy to take over the world. Their DNA is mixed in everywhere, God is just an just another idea given to us by reptoids to manipulate our thinking.

Break away from things....wear tin foil caps to stop the mind penetrating radio waves.......

Be free, be yourself........

[scutfargus]

We have 4 different men who wrote a history of Jesus Christ. 2 were eyewitnesses and 2 were closely associated with eyewitnesses. We have manuscripts going back to within 100 years of when they wrote their words. We have other writers of that general era who quote from the manuscripts, verifying by these quotes that the words we read in the Bible are the original words. And we have over 24,000 ancient manuscripts and portions of manuscripts of the New Testament.

There is no historical event over 400 years ago which comes even close to this kind of a witness. I realize that the numbers I posted here are just numbers to you, and I don't know that you even begin to appreciate how strongly these authetnicate the historical documents that we carry around and call the Bible.

Most of the history which we know that is over 400 years is based upon an eyewitness or someone once removed from an eyewitness. Usually we have a handful of manuscripts at best, and sometimes these are written hundreds of years later.

Let me give you a couple of examples. We have 10 copies of a manuscript written by Caesar from the same time period and these are dated 1000 years after he wrote down his words. Pliny the younger was a historian from that time period. We have 7 manuscripts and they are dated 750 years after he wrote. Do you need another ten examples, or do you get the idea?

There is no ancient book, writing, manuscript which even comes close to the Bible when it comes to verifying what was written. So, we have 4 witnesses, a ton of manuscripts, and a very short interval between our oldest manuscript and copies which we actually have. So, I am going to believe these more than I believe some contemporary writer, 2000 years removed from the fact. The historical documents even from the standpoint of simple history so far outweigh some person's opinion which disagrees with them as to almost be inarguable (is that a word?).

People choose to believe the most bizarre things. That Divinci code, a painter, over a thousand years removed from what he paints, and people look for hidden meaning and clues in what he painted as if that means something (well, the book is fiction, but some take it seriously). However, there is no historical witness like the Bible. You may not like it and you may not agree with it. God gives you free will here. But your choices are also your responsibility.

.

I've spent a fair amount of time discussing the issue of the 'historical jesus' with people that have studied theology at undergraduate and graduate/doctorate level at university. They all seem pretty clear on the fact that the quest to unearth a historical jesus in the bible is now generally deemed as a lost cause in academic circles. No doubt some of the new testament may reflect actual words or events in Jesus' life, but the criteria to determine which bits do and which bits don't are full of landmines. It often ends up being based around subjective opinions as to what one would WANT Jesus to have said and emphasising those bits. And surely you would not assert that EVERYTHING in the gospels is completely pure history? Or would you?

(This in no way, however, undermines the validity of whether Christian values are 'true' or not; it's solely about whether we can discover a historical jesus in the bible - two utterly separate things. Often people get very worked up because they assume that if one says we can't say much about jesus FROM A HISTORICAL POINT OF VIEW. this therefore entails an attack on christianity - the two are not at all the same thing.)

Importantly, one has to accept that historical veracity probably wasn't high on the list of priorities for the authors that composed the various parts of the new testament. As in nearly all religious literature of that period, narrative and hagiography play a massive role - that doesn't mean that they don't spell out spiritual truths (in fact, some might argue that the narrative genre actually highlights religious truths better than a factual document), but it does mean that a lot of the time we have to take off our historian's hats and accept that we're dealing with a genre in which questions of history are not always relevant. (In fact, Buddhism has a very similar problem with the life of the Buddha in the Pali canon and the extent to which we can unearth a historical Buddha.)

This reflects the academic situation in Britain, and I believe in Europe generally. I don't know if it reflects the academic situation in America. Are these the views of cynics? Do you see this as a temporary academic trend (though it's been around for a good couple of decades now and shows no signs of disappearing....)?

There have been those who opposed Jesus Christ from the very beginning. This has been true from 30 AD (or thereabouts) until today. Even our seminaries are filled with people who oppose Jesus Christ. Since Jesus is God, this is what we should expect. We should not ever be surprised.

And again, no matter, what is said by this person or that, we have eyewitness testimony. We have a myriad of manuscripts of those eyewitnesses and these manuscripts go back to being within a century of being written. For ancient history, there is a greater, more reliable witness that Jesus arose from the dead than any other historical event that men believe in (there is more evidence that Jesus arose from the dead than there is for the Crusades, for Julius Caesar being a real person, and even more evidence for Him than for the existence of Napoleon). However, man will always dispute everything they can about Jesus. They will dispute His existence, His words, His teachings. On the one hand, as we have seen here, people will try to make Jesus fall in line with their own pet beliefs (that is, they make God in their own image). On the other hand, they reject everything about Him they do not like. This is typical of man--in our souls, we are against God. It is our nature. If you don't think man is evil, just pick up a newspaper and read.

So, who am I going to trust? Man or Jesus? .

[robbie36]

scutfargus

You need to get laid...

[cs3602001]

You can reject Jesus all you wish; but don't pretend that it is based upon reason or based upon something that you spent time thinking about.

You're entitled to your beliefs. But when you present them as being absolute truth and attempt to insult the cognitive abilities of anyone who doesn't believe as you do, don't be surprised at the negative responses you receive. Others are entitled to their beliefs too, without you questioning their ability and willingness to reason or think.

_rob you blabbering old fool, scutfargus can question whoever he wants on whatever subject he pleases, I cannot find it anywhere in the terms and conditions of the site where it says "Others are entitled to their beliefs too, without you questioning their ability and willingness to reason or think."

Stick to the content of the topic and practice what you preach.

[scutfargus]

You can reject Jesus all you wish; but don't pretend that it is based upon reason or based upon something that you spent time thinking about.

You're entitled to your beliefs. But when you present them as being absolute truth and attempt to insult the cognitive abilities of anyone who doesn't believe as you do, don't be surprised at the negative responses you receive. Others are entitled to their beliefs too, without you questioning their ability and willingness to reason or think.

I would expect the negative responses. You will notice that for most of this thread, going back to the first couple pages, there are few if any personal attacks...until I mentioned Jesus. Jesus, because He is God, always will elicit and emotional response. People cannot help but become upset and emotional.

Jesus once said to me (in the Bible): "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of this world, the world would love its own, but because you are not of this world, but I chose you out of the world, thereofre the world hates you." (John 15:18-19).

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him who doesn't work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

Since eternal life is free in Jesus, you should simply reach out and take it.

[scutfargus]

Since salvation is free, since it is not based upon your works, since it is not based upon some lifetime commitment, since it is not based upon you giving up this or that; I would think that even the most unreasonable person reading this would say to himself, "You know, I don't buy into any of this, but why not take a chance and believe?" After all, salvation for us is free.

How can someone 'not buy into any of this' and at the same time also 'believe'? Seems an inherent contradiction there. Smacks of ironing out creases that just can't be ironed out. What you're REALLY saying is: 'come on, take the risk of being a christian, and once you're in the club, you'll see that it's all true'. The big problem with your above words is that anyone from any religion could say the same things; that's fine in itself but you don't seem to be aware of that - anyone from any religion can say: 'why not just take the chance of believing; it's worth it, you know!' In that sense, who's to say which path is more 'worth it'? Surely we need something a little more than rhetoric and emotional blackmail to understand the reasons for faith or spiritual practice. Or perhaps not...

Everyone makes this choice based upon their own freewill.

Joh 20:27 Then Jesus said to Thomas, "Reach here your finger, and see My hands. Reach here your hand, and put it into My side. Don't be unbelieving, but believing."

Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed."

You apparently did not read my post very carefully. Salvation is in Christ; it is free because He paid for our sins; He broke down the barrier between man and God. Other religions require, in many cases, works and a lifetime commitment. Salvation in Christ requires a few seconds of your life. Nothing more than that.

[WiCKeDBiRD]

God or NOt...

I dont really care... honestly.

But I do believe in -Bill Gate's Rules- :shock:

-RULE 1

Life is not fair - get used to it.

-RULE 2

The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

-RULE 3

You will NOT make 50 thousand dollars a year right out of high school. You

won't be a vice president with a car phone, until you earn both.

-RULE 4

If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss. He doesn't

have tenure.

-RULE 5

Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a

different word for burger flipping - they called it opportunity.

-RULE 6

If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your

mistakes, learn from them.

-RULE 7

Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now.

They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and

listening to you talk about how cool you are. So before you save the rain

forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the

closet in your own room.

-RULE 8

Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life has not.

In some schools they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as

many times as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

-RULE 9

Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time.

-RULE 10

Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

-RULE 11

Be nice to the nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.

Especially, No. 11 ....

[Greggo]

Brother will kill brother, spilling blood across the land, killing for religion something I don't understand.

Fools like me who cross the sea and come to foreign lands ask the sheep for their beliefs. Do you kill on God's command?

Religion: something created as an excuse to invade and conquer, as more people have been killed and are still being killed in the name of religion.

End of thread.

[johnno]

rule 12. no poofters

woops, sorry craig, i am getting off the topic here

i laughed like hell, nearly split my sides when i read about you telling someone to stick to the topic. 8) :shock: