USA and the Gun Lobby

[afook06]

If you are a TF's member and can not not give an honest opinion about any issue without name calling and cursing, then you're not mature enough to say anything that's worth reading or writing..........give me a break :shock: Eddie

[i_love_som_tam]

afool06 and his brain are soon parted

afool06... you visited my profile and didn't vote. that's not proper TF ettiquette. :shock:

[zeusbheld]

If you are saying Americans abroad have no say in the matter then that is foolish.

no he's saying he cannot master the obvious and figure out that ILST is an american. or figure out much of anything else apparently.

On the other hand, there are many "self-righteous" Americans as well as Europeans. This is what the self-righteous live for; how interesting would life be for them if they couldn't tell you what to do, when and how to do it? And when confronted with facts they don't like, it's time for twisting and turning. After that fails, the volume tends to rise and finally name calling. Notice how most Americans could care less what you do in your own countries; it is your business and none of ours. Until your issues become our problems. The discourse level gets so dumb we get postal responses like these:

be honest here there are many self-righteous windbags on BOTH sides of the issue.

Imagine how many poor families that live in the rural areas in the United States would be starving or barely surviving with out the use of a fire arm as a form of hunting.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm crying tears of laughter!! You've got to be joking right?!!!

What are people in the bronx doing? shooting nice fat rats for dinner? to feed the family? You are too funny!!!

i fail to see what's so outrageous about that comment---how many people have you met that HAVE to hunt for for their food? i've lived in rural, poor areas and never met one either.

Finally, I rather enjoyed the "sourced facts" demand of alfyiav.

wihich i agree with.

After he put forward a decent, lucid, non-emotional argument in favor of legal, educated gun ownership he tried complying with some stats which were, shall we say, "unacceptable" to some here.

did you really read his posts? apparently not. by the end of it he did exactly what he railed on about and drew a conclusion based on a correlation too weak to establish causation. you have a habit of endorsing flabby arguments just because they support what you want to believe.

Many things are unacceptable to some here. These stats (good, bad, right, wrong, relevant, irrelevant, correllated and/or causal...it doesn't matter) were dismissed with a "Your statistics on ethnic breakdowns prove nothing."

you can beat a straw man all you want but it's weak and disingenuous at best, a weak correlation doesn't 'prove' anything, he said so himself.

Hmmm. Upon closer examination, this is what proves nothing: The relentless, incessant carping about our gun policies.

yep--and congrats, you're contributing to it. more hot air, yet there isnt enough solid evidence presented by anyone so far in this thread to go beyond establishing what the questions should be. this isnt a debate it's the jerry springer show, but i suppose that's why we tune in...

There is a little organization called the NRA comprised of several million members (dems, repubs, conservatives and liberals alike) which insures the laws will provide for any law abiding U.S. citizen after going through the regulatory hoops will be able to legally own a gun. No matter what you say about it. Or how many stats are pulled out of the air or off a website.

and having pulled the fact that there's an organization that lobbies the US government to shape gun laws establishes what exactly? personally i'd be more incined to believe stats. so you dismiss the use of statistics--what's the right way to go about it then, do like afool06 and wail and piss like a 2 year old? yeah that's effective. oh wait a minute isn't that what lobbyists do? i guess it *is* effective.

[i_love_som_tam]

If you are a TF's member and can not not give an honest opinion about any issue without name calling and cursing, then you're not mature enough to say anything that's worth reading or writing..........give me a break :shock: Eddie

speaking of cursing...

You're the one that should think about a name change Ilovesomtan?? By the way, you live in Iraq.......don't bother to try to address me, because too many of our boys have come back to the USA in body bags, and this is because they are trying to give you true freedom.....don't give me any of your sh*t, I don't want to hear it! Eddie

something about the pot calling the kettle black... stones and glass houses... all good and fine for you until someone corrected your errors using the same attitude that you displayed when you thought that I was of Iraqi origin. for a man that touts his age as being the key to wisdom you sure display quite a bit of immaturity :roll:

[zeusbheld]

If you are a TF's member and can not not give an honest opinion about any issue without name calling and cursing, then you're not mature enough to say anything that's worth reading or writing..........give me a break :shock: Eddie

nad what again was your excuse for not saying anything worth reading and writing?

do tell. sorry, all breaks are earned. you have earned nothing.

PS calling you a hypocrite isn't name calling it's an observation, based entirely on your posts.

[zeusbheld]

You're the one that should think about a name change Ilovesomtan?? By the way, you live in Iraq.......don't bother to try to address me, because too many of our boys have come back to the USA in body bags, and this is because they are trying to give you true freedom.....don't give me any of your sh*t, I don't want to hear it! Eddie

quite possibly one of the supidest posts EVER on TF ... and the competition for that was pretty HOT !!

i think we can decide this right here, i vote it NUMBER ONE! STUPIDEST POST EVER.

[i_love_som_tam]

You're the one that should think about a name change Ilovesomtan?? By the way, you live in Iraq.......don't bother to try to address me, because too many of our boys have come back to the USA in body bags, and this is because they are trying to give you true freedom.....don't give me any of your sh*t, I don't want to hear it! Eddie

quite possibly one of the supidest posts EVER on TF ... and the competition for that was pretty HOT !!

i think we can decide this right here, i vote it NUMBER ONE! STUPIDEST POST EVER.

How do we start a poll? :wink:

[Loburt]

Finally, I rather enjoyed the "sourced facts" demand of alfyiav. After he put forward a decent, lucid, non-emotional argument in favor of legal, educated gun ownership he tried complying with some stats which were, shall we say, "unacceptable" to some here. Many things are unacceptable to some here. These stats (good, bad, right, wrong, relevant, irrelevant, correllated and/or causal...it doesn't matter) were dismissed with a "Your statistics on ethnic breakdowns prove nothing."

Yes, they were dismissed - after examination, and searching further on the site he linked to. They were dismissed because he used the stats in an attempt to prove is point that the majority of violent crimes are committed by immigrants - people not born in the US. The stats don't measure that, so they don't prove his point.

I never used the word "unacceptable." You're using that word. His stats prove nothing - insofarfar as the argument he was making. That stats don't support what he claims to be facts.

Is that too tough for you to understand?

[zeusbheld]

Hi Vic, I find this post at least a bit contradictive:

Vic :" If you are saying Americans abroad have no say in the matter then that is foolish. On the other hand, there are many "self-righteous" Americans as well as Europeans. This is what the self-righteous live for; how interesting would life be for them if they couldn't tell you what to do, when and how to do it? And when confronted with facts they don't like, it's time for twisting and turning. After that fails, the volume tends to rise and finally name calling.Notice how most Americans could care less what you do in your own countries; it is your business and none of ours. Until your issues become our problems. The discourse level gets so dumb we get postal responses like these:"

Then, only few sentences later to followed by :

Oh, you know this is far fetched? I'm shocked. My my. Your "theory" is for non-thinkers and imbeciles only.

You have more of these name calling posts, but I'm too lazy to find them all.

face it vbroker that hand stuck in the cookie jar is YOURS you are busted. if are cheeky enough to claim you don't sling mud i'lll dig up some examples, let me know, thanks, buh-bye.

ps sun tzu this is not to be taken as a defense of your theory about the american goverment being poised to dump chemical weapons on its own people.

[zeusbheld]

You're the one that should think about a name change Ilovesomtan?? By the way, you live in Iraq.......don't bother to try to address me, because too many of our boys have come back to the USA in body bags, and this is because they are trying to give you true freedom.....don't give me any of your sh*t, I don't want to hear it! Eddie

quite possibly one of the supidest posts EVER on TF ... and the competition for that was pretty HOT !!

i think we can decide this right here, i vote it NUMBER ONE! STUPIDEST POST EVER.

How do we start a poll? :wink:

we'd have to start a new thread. do we need one? i think the answer is obvious and unlike afool i've actually read more posts than i posted...

[i_love_som_tam]

no one has suggested the right to keep and arm bears. i'm all for that. it would make hunting more interesting and entertaining. :wink:

[Loburt]

ps. Loburt: That most crimes in the US are commited by immigrants might be more true than one might think, since most of the natives (Indians) in North America are quite dead.

I am quite aware of that fact, SunTsu76, but was saving it for later if needed.

[zeusbheld]

You're the one that should think about a name change Ilovesomtan?? By the way, you live in Iraq.......don't bother to try to address me, because too many of our boys have come back to the USA in body bags, and this is because they are trying to give you true freedom.....don't give me any of your sh*t, I don't want to hear it! Eddie

quite possibly one of the supidest posts EVER on TF ... and the competition for that was pretty HOT !!

i think we can decide this right here, i vote it NUMBER ONE! STUPIDEST POST EVER.

I wholeheartedly agree.

(Even including my own.)

it's rare to see such a towering talent that he just dominate a competition that should be one of the toughest in human history.

oops i forgot i've no right to comment as although i'm american, i don't happen to live in the US at the moment.

[vbroker]

I never used the word "unacceptable." You're using that word. His stats prove nothing - insofarfar as the argument he was making. That stats don't support what he claims to be facts.

Is that too tough for you to understand?

You didn't have to use the word unacceptable; it was implied and I suggested as much. Further, it doesn't matter what his stats prove or disprove. You (or anyone) can trot out as many statistics you like until the Rangers win another Stanley Cup. The point was and is, there is no point. The gun laws will unlikely ever become so restrictive here as to ban legal possession by law abiding citizens. This entire thread and those advocating total gun bans is an exercise in futility. Or is that too onerous for you to understand? Onerous: burdensome, oppressive, or troublesome; causing hardship (dictionary.com)

face it vbroker that hand stuck in the cookie jar is YOURS you are busted. if are cheeky enough to claim you don't sling mud i'lll dig up some examples, let me know, thanks, buh-bye.

You know; I like a good, soft, chewy cookie once in a while. Since many of you like to cherry and nitpick posts, the line in question was: "Your "theory" is for non-thinkers and imbeciles only." I believe I referred to the theory as non-thinking and imbecilic and to as yet unnamed persons/theory subscribers. I didn't call suntzu76 either of these "names" although I admit I'm tempted to. If Bill Clinton can be impeached for lying under oath yet avoid office removal after saying, "I did not have sex with that woman; Monica Lewinsky" I can play the same semantics game.

Anyway, I'm done with the neocons.

You were done months ago the day you advanced an illiterate conspiracy theory. Oops........there I go again; another cookie. Damn, they are tasty and sweet. I guess I mean to say conspiracy theorists and their subscribers are illiterate. Guilty as charged. Name or fact calling? You decide.

[Loburt]

I never used the word "unacceptable." You're using that word. His stats prove nothing - insofarfar as the argument he was making. That stats don't support what he claims to be facts.

Is that too tough for you to understand?

You didn't have to use the word unacceptable; it was implied and I suggested as much. Further, it doesn't matter what his stats prove or disprove. You (or anyone) can trot out as many statistics you like until the Rangers win another Stanley Cup. The point was and is, there is no point. The gun laws will unlikely ever become so restrictive here as to ban legal possession by law abiding citizens. This entire thread and those advocating total gun bans is an exercise in futility. Or is that too onerous for you to understand? Onerous: burdensome, oppressive, or troublesome; causing hardship (dictionary.com)

You should use your dictionary to find the appropriate word for someone who would take the time to write more than 500 words responding to seven different people in a thread he believes has no point and is an exercise in futility.

[zeusbheld]

face it vbroker that hand stuck in the cookie jar is YOURS you are busted. if are cheeky enough to claim you don't sling mud i'lll dig up some examples, let me know, thanks, buh-bye.

You know; I like a good, soft, chewy cookie once in a while. Since many of you like to cherry and nitpick posts, the line in question was: "Your "theory" is for non-thinkers and imbeciles only." I believe I referred to the theory as non-thinking and imbecilic and to as yet unnamed persons/theory subscribers. I didn't call suntzu76 either of these "names" although I admit I'm tempted to. If Bill Clinton can be impeached for lying under oath yet avoid office removal after saying, "I did not have sex with that woman; Monica Lewinsky" I can play the same semantics game.

actually i can think of one where you crossed the line, in someone's journal comment.

which in fact wouldn't bother me IF you weren't wailing and moaning about name-calling in journals. don't worry though that's such a mild hypocrisy compared to afook06's gem that you won't even medal. if you're gonna sling mud, sling mud, dont denounce it and sneak through the back door.

certainly enough posters deserve mud on their face, even if we may not always agree which ones. you will end up, of course, still playing the semantic game, but mainly to avoid yellow cards and suspensions. it's liberating to embrace the dark side. trust me on this.

and as for cherry picking/nitpicking, are you actually saying you dont do this?

<<cue laugh track>>

[vbroker]

I never used the word "unacceptable." You're using that word. His stats prove nothing - insofarfar as the argument he was making. That stats don't support what he claims to be facts.

Is that too tough for you to understand?

You didn't have to use the word unacceptable; it was implied and I suggested as much. Further, it doesn't matter what his stats prove or disprove. You (or anyone) can trot out as many statistics you like until the Rangers win another Stanley Cup. The point was and is, there is no point. The gun laws will unlikely ever become so restrictive here as to ban legal possession by law abiding citizens. This entire thread and those advocating total gun bans is an exercise in futility. Or is that too onerous for you to understand? Onerous: burdensome, oppressive, or troublesome; causing hardship (dictionary.com)

You should use your dictionary to find the appropriate word for someone who would take the time to write more than 500 words responding to seven different people in a thread he believes has no point and is an exercise in futility.

Entertainment. Two more words: Being right. As in correct. Effortless as it may be. Behold:

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/03/09/D8NOSR480.html

Even if on appeal it reaches the Supreme Court and is overturned (since conservatives rule the Court for the first time in well over a generation we'll see about that) it goes to show the average American mindset as it relates to the Second Amendment. I expect the nasty comments about the "average American mindset" will follow. Another defeat for the despicable, psychotic, far left.

[zeusbheld]

I never used the word "unacceptable." You're using that word. His stats prove nothing - insofarfar as the argument he was making. That stats don't support what he claims to be facts.

Is that too tough for you to understand?

You didn't have to use the word unacceptable; it was implied and I suggested as much. Further, it doesn't matter what his stats prove or disprove. You (or anyone) can trot out as many statistics you like until the Rangers win another Stanley Cup. The point was and is, there is no point. The gun laws will unlikely ever become so restrictive here as to ban legal possession by law abiding citizens. This entire thread and those advocating total gun bans is an exercise in futility. Or is that too onerous for you to understand? Onerous: burdensome, oppressive, or troublesome; causing hardship (dictionary.com)

You should use your dictionary to find the appropriate word for someone who would take the time to write more than 500 words responding to seven different people in a thread he believes has no point and is an exercise in futility.

Entertainment. Two more words: Being right. As in correct. Effortless as it may be. Behold:

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/03/09/D8NOSR480.html

it's good you get to win some, or at least not look like a fool. you looked consistently a fool with your linking to articles that didnt' support your dogma in the global warming thread. very entertaining, watching you make a total ass of yourself though.

Even if on appeal it reaches the Supreme Court and is overturned (since conservatives rule the Court for the first time in well over a generation we'll see about that) it goes to show the average American mindset as it relates to the Second Amendment. I expect the nasty comments about the "average American mindset" will follow. Another defeat for the despicable, psychotic, far left.

seems like the far left and the far right have a lot in common: namely the rejection of things like reason and facts. sadly, the gun control debate is largely a debate between the far left and far right and thus one can expect facts and reason to bear little on the outcome.

nonetheless i personally expect the outcome to bear little on the body count ultimately. the idea that one needs a gun to "defend" the average american household is beyond irrational and quite far into the absurd. on the other hand, if that same average american is subjected to a reasonably thorough background check, it's hardly a case of the bodies are going to pile up in the streets. the gun debate a) won't change much and won't keep me up at night for this reason.

PS and while i have never owned a gun personally, i have to admit that firing an ak47 or ar15 on rock-and-roll is kinda fun.

[beej]

BAN THEM ALL!

[i_love_som_tam]

BAN THEM ALL!

guns or TFers ? :shock:

[ling_dtua_khaao]

BAN THEM ALL!

guns or TFers ? :shock:

Bare arms.

Which is what will happen if Al K. Da gets his way. We need more guns to protect ourselves. Lots and lots more.

--Ling

[lizardo]

Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Can't see how owning guns nowadays is necessary to the security of the free state..... maybe beat the gun lobby by placing a ban on ammunition production...

[Undercover]

Not exactly on topic but interesting nonetheless:

From:

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.php?id=1612

"Some stats for you first: Number of deaths by firearms throughout the world: 1. No surprise is South Africa with just over 31,000 in the two year study. 2. Columbia with almost 22,000 (again, this is not surprising.) Number three . . . Well you'd think Russia, USA, China or India. They all have large populations and high crime rates. But no, number three is Thailand, even with the omnipresent jai yen big brother it managed to reach 20,032 murders by firearm in two years. It's worth noting though, that non firearm murder rates see Thailand ranked at 8th in the world with 5,140 murders, USA, 6th with over 12,000 and India topping the charts with over 37,000. It's also worth noting that some of the stats might be unreliable in countries that have inferior law enforcement and governments that don't have the resources to collect statistical figures. These facts were taken from the Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention). By the way, there's a heavy drop off for fourth place in the murder firearm rate, which is the USA with only 8,259 deaths, and when you consider death per capita, Thailand is much, much higher than the US. "

[zeusbheld]

BAN THEM ALL!

guns or TFers ? :shock:

yes.

[zeusbheld]

Not exactly on topic but interesting nonetheless:

From:

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.php?id=1612

"Some stats for you first: Number of deaths by firearms throughout the world: 1. No surprise is South Africa with just over 31,000 in the two year study. 2. Columbia with almost 22,000 (again, this is not surprising.) Number three . . . Well you'd think Russia, USA, China or India. They all have large populations and high crime rates. But no, number three is Thailand, even with the omnipresent jai yen big brother it managed to reach 20,032 murders by firearm in two years. It's worth noting though, that non firearm murder rates see Thailand ranked at 8th in the world with 5,140 murders, USA, 6th with over 12,000 and India topping the charts with over 37,000. It's also worth noting that some of the stats might be unreliable in countries that have inferior law enforcement and governments that don't have the resources to collect statistical figures. These facts were taken from the Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention). By the way, there's a heavy drop off for fourth place in the murder firearm rate, which is the USA with only 8,259 deaths, and when you consider death per capita, Thailand is much, much higher than the US. "

i notice a trend in all those stats:

indians are just as interested in killing each other, but less likely to be able to afford guns.