Shameful Aid to China

[MikeAussieGuy]

It was reported in CNN today that China's foreign reserves will hit $1 trillion this month.

I saw some months ago Japan was "considering" stopping economic aid to China in the way of cheap loans etc. and Canada was also "considering" doing the same.

China, today, gets over a $1billion a year in foreign aid, countries like Canada as an example has given China a billion dollars over the past 10 years and still give $50mil a year.

Go figure this, when millions of people in 3rd world countries are starving to death and having to pay back loans used just to survive, when China, the powerhouse of the manufacturing countries who are putting millions out of work in the very same countries that give this aid and who spends billions upon billions every year on weapons are the recipients of this suck up "aid"!! Shameful.

[eagle]

Well things change and China is growing fast so the money they need and recieve will change. Economic aid is used as leverage in politics so it will adjust and the power will shift hihhihihihi

[afook06]

China is becoming and having a huge economy boom! We are actually in a economic war with them in the USA. Everything you buy at Costco's and Sam's Clubs in the USA, is made from China!! A long time ago Japan was in the same position....everything was from Japan, now they corner the auto market with the Toyotas and Hondas. China can do this only because they have the largest body mass of workers, that are willing to work for lower wages in their country. Thus, all the jobs and a lot of our industry has gone to these international places where our companies can try to save monies to try to stay afloat! A lot of people in the USA don't even wish to work for our minuium wage, which is just short of a poverty level.......so what else is new

[MikeAussieGuy]

China is becoming and having a huge economy boom! We are actually in a economic war with them in the USA. Everything you buy at Costco's and Sam's Clubs in the USA, is made from China!! A long time ago Japan was in the same position....everything was from Japan, now they corner the auto market with the Toyotas and Hondas. China can do this only because they have the largest body mass of workers, that are willing to work for lower wages in their country. Thus, all the jobs and a lot of our industry has gone to these international places where our companies can try to save monies to try to stay afloat! A lot of people in the USA don't even wish to work for our minuium wage, which is just short of a poverty level.......so what else is new

Yes fine but what has that got to do with my topic? What you have said is true, but it is just scratching the surface, my emphasis is aid going to China while people in many 3rd world countries are starving to death.

[afook06]

Aid to China is just another political agenda from the USA.......China is huge and lot's of money to be made there by outsiders!! Other 3rd countries have nothing to offer back, because of their extreme poverty! Everything is politics and money, and greed!! Where have you been Mike?

[eagle]

People dieing while some get rich is a very sad reality :cry:

[afook06]

A lot of private monies are being donated to a lot of very poverty stricken countries, like in Africa, etc. A lot of billionares, like Oprah, Gates, and many celebraties give their support.......charity or aid to others can not just come from other countries to help, because of politics, and we all have to remember, that we really do have to help our own needy people in our own countries first!

[i_love_som_tam]

Go figure this, when millions of people in 3rd world countries are starving to death and having to pay back loans used just to survive, when China, the powerhouse of the manufacturing countries who are putting millions out of work in the very same countries that give this aid and who spends billions upon billions every year on weapons are the recipients of this suck up "aid"!! Shameful.

don't forget the people living below poverty levels in these countries giving financial aid not only to China but to other countries as well. If the USA would spend that money on their own poverty stricken citizens then there would be no poverty. but then the credit card companies and banks would go broke because the poor people wouldn't depend on credit to make ends meet, right?

[MikeAussieGuy]

Go figure this, when millions of people in 3rd world countries are starving to death and having to pay back loans used just to survive, when China, the powerhouse of the manufacturing countries who are putting millions out of work in the very same countries that give this aid and who spends billions upon billions every year on weapons are the recipients of this suck up "aid"!! Shameful.

don't forget the people living below poverty levels in these countries giving financial aid not only to China but to other countries as well. If the USA would spend that money on their own poverty stricken citizens then there would be no poverty. but then the credit card companies and banks would go broke because the poor people wouldn't depend on credit to make ends meet, right?

You sure are spot on here.

[MikeAussieGuy]

Seems to me it's the 'scratch my back, scratch your back' phenomenon at play here Mike, we give you aid now and then you buy all our products later which were all made by you anyway. Just got back from beautiful Perth [ first visit to Oz] and picked up some little Kuala softies for my sweety back in LOS and we both had a good chuckle when she pointed out the 'Made in China' tag on them. Crazy world jing jing.

I've got an Australian Made Koala on my desk to remind me of home, you can still by them Made in Aus.. you just gotta look...

Mate it's the tag that is made in Australia, the koala is made in China

[GoldMember]

It was reported in CNN today that China's foreign reserves will hit $1 trillion this month.

I saw some months ago Japan was "considering" stopping economic aid to China in the way of cheap loans etc. and Canada was also "considering" doing the same.

China, today, gets over a $1billion a year in foreign aid, countries like Canada as an example has given China a billion dollars over the past 10 years and still give $50mil a year.

Go figure this, when millions of people in 3rd world countries are starving to death and having to pay back loans used just to survive, when China, the powerhouse of the manufacturing countries who are putting millions out of work in the very same countries that give this aid and who spends billions upon billions every year on weapons are the recipients of this suck up "aid"!! Shameful.

China may have huge trade surpluses but its still very much a harsh 3rd world peasant existence for the vast majority.Divide 1billion USD by a population of 1.3 billion (or whatever) and its under a $ a head.Just putting things into perspective......

[zeusbheld]

It was reported in CNN today that China's foreign reserves will hit $1 trillion this month.

I saw some months ago Japan was "considering" stopping economic aid to China in the way of cheap loans etc. and Canada was also "considering" doing the same.

China, today, gets over a $1billion a year in foreign aid, countries like Canada as an example has given China a billion dollars over the past 10 years and still give $50mil a year.

Go figure this, when millions of people in 3rd world countries are starving to death and having to pay back loans used just to survive, when China, the powerhouse of the manufacturing countries who are putting millions out of work in the very same countries that give this aid and who spends billions upon billions every year on weapons are the recipients of this suck up "aid"!! Shameful.

China may have huge trade surpluses but its still very much a harsh 3rd world peasant existence for the vast majority.Divide 1billion USD by a population of 1.3 billion (or whatever) and its under a $ a head.Just putting things into perspective......

TRUE. the cities and the rural areas are like different countries with completely different economies.

i suspect that the US is eager to give aid to china--it gives the US government a lever to pressure the chinese government to stop pegging the RMB to the dollar.

[MikeAussieGuy]

It was reported in CNN today that China's foreign reserves will hit $1 trillion this month.

I saw some months ago Japan was "considering" stopping economic aid to China in the way of cheap loans etc. and Canada was also "considering" doing the same.

China, today, gets over a $1billion a year in foreign aid, countries like Canada as an example has given China a billion dollars over the past 10 years and still give $50mil a year.

Go figure this, when millions of people in 3rd world countries are starving to death and having to pay back loans used just to survive, when China, the powerhouse of the manufacturing countries who are putting millions out of work in the very same countries that give this aid and who spends billions upon billions every year on weapons are the recipients of this suck up "aid"!! Shameful.

China may have huge trade surpluses but its still very much a harsh 3rd world peasant existence for the vast majority.Divide 1billion USD by a population of 1.3 billion (or whatever) and its under a $ a head.Just putting things into perspective......

TRUE. the cities and the rural areas are like different countries with completely different economies.

i suspect that the US is eager to give aid to china--it gives the US government a lever to pressure the chinese government to stop pegging the RMB to the dollar.

GoldMember - If you work it out that way sure, but is that the correct way to do it and ignore the billions spent on arms and the Olympics etc. which should be going to the people you mention.

I lived in China for a year and saw the reality of China, not the major cities and the economic zones that most people see.

My point is why give a billion to China, when they spend billions on the aforementioned, have a trillion dollars in trade surplus a world record for foreign reserves by the way, when the bilion should be going to the countries that cant feed themselves nor have the money to spend on arms or the Olympics.

Dont you think it is a sad state of affairs to give aid to a country such as China, why should other countries feed their people when they can do so themselves if they didnt build a few more hundred nukes.

Zeus - you are right that point was made on CNN as a way to control the Renminbi against other currencies. By not spending this surplus they keep their currency unfairly low against all others, for the obvious reason of cheap exports.

[zeusbheld]

Zeus - you are right that point was made on CNN as a way to control the Renminbi against other currencies. By not spending this surplus they keep their currency unfairly low against all others, for the obvious reason of cheap exports.

thus giving them aid makes sense from a realpolitik point of view: china are too economically and politically powerful to bully into de-pegging the RMB, so they give them aid in order to have something to take away if and when they want to rattle their cage. some aid given by governments has to do with helping the people who deserve and need it, but a lot--arguably most--is given to further political agendas.

[GoldMember]

Dont you think it is a sad state of affairs to give aid to a country such as China, why should other countries feed their people when they can do so themselves if they didnt build a few more hundred nukes.

True,agree it doesnt look too good.Though if the US/Europe etc were really dedicated to elevating wretched 3rd world poverty a good start would be introduce fair trade by getting rid of widespread lavish domestic agricultural subsidies.Guess thats another topic though......

With rgds to the RMB.We shouldnt complain too much.The fixed Yuan has been a boon for global consumers .Its very positive for inflation rates and hence,with the current fashion of central banks pegging lending rates to consumer price index data, very good for interest &mortgage rates.

Float the RMB and the low inflation/ low interest rate party we have all been enjoying may come to an abrupt end.Publically American politicians whine.Privately they realise the problem is more to do with the dollar.Best way to correct the trade imbalance and make US products more competitive would be let it slide significantly further(than it has done already).

[zeusbheld]

Float the RMB and the low inflation/ low interest rate party we have all been enjoying may come to an abrupt end.Publically American politicians whine.Privately they realise the problem is more to do with the dollar.Best way to correct the trade imbalance and make US products more competitive would be let it slide significantly further(than it has done already).

yep on one hand american politicians piss and moan about american companies moving their manufacturing overseas, yet if the RMB were de--pegged and products manufactured in china were suddenly more expensive..... election day would get ugly if the public connected the price rise to bullying the chinese into floating the RMB. a real bloodbath, possibly, although suspect i'm giving the american public (significant portions of whom want to teach young-earth creationism in public schools) far too much credit.

[vbroker]

don't forget the people living below poverty levels in these countries giving financial aid not only to China but to other countries as well. If the USA would spend that money on their own poverty stricken citizens then there would be no poverty. but then the credit card companies and banks would go broke because the poor people wouldn't depend on credit to make ends meet, right?

Not to venture too far off topic, but what is this predilection with attacking business in these forums? All companies are in business to make money. As much of it as possible. Competition ensures the educated consumer gets a good deal if he or she checks many or all the options. Hence, the freer trade is, the better off everybody is. Are there opportunities for fraud and other illegal doings within a free enterprise system? Of course. That is why we have laws to deal with these issues. The system overall is pretty good.

The U.S. has spent trillions as far back as Roosevelt's "New Deal" and more recently with Johnson's "Great Society" attacking poverty. Much of that cash was and is wasted on useless, inefficient programs. In other words, there will always be some poverty level no matter how much money is spent fighting it. Like the unemployment number will never be zero percent. I am not suggesting measures should not be taken to help people wanting to get themselves out of poverty.

China is a WTO member. That comes with the responsibility to be a fair trade player. Part of that entails removing the RMB to dollar peg which artificially cheapens China's already inexpensive exports versus a hyper-low wage labor force. The Chinese will be the first to tell you their product's quality is below that of their American counterparts. So they should be cheaper....not artificially cheaper. The dollar trades freely; the RMB does not and should.

[Neo]

The U.S. has spent trillions as far back as Roosevelt's "New Deal" and more recently with Johnson's "Great Society" attacking poverty.

Yes, attacking Nicaragua, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq.

:wink:

China is a WTO member. That comes with the responsibility to be a fair trade player.

Yes they are, but perhaps a country that in 1950 invaded possibly the most spiritually advanced nation on earth, raped and murdered millions of their monks and nuns, and is to this day commited to displacing the native population, should not be a WTO member, or at the very least should be under trade sanctions.

[bkk_maniac]

GoldMember - If you work it out that way sure, but is that the correct way to do it and ignore the billions spent on arms and the Olympics etc. which should be going to the people you mention.

I lived in China for a year and saw the reality of China, not the major cities and the economic zones that most people see.

My point is why give a billion to China, when they spend billions on the aforementioned, have a trillion dollars in trade surplus a world record for foreign reserves by the way, when the bilion should be going to the countries that cant feed themselves nor have the money to spend on arms or the Olympics.

Dont you think it is a sad state of affairs to give aid to a country such as China, why should other countries feed their people when they can do so themselves if they didnt build a few more hundred nukes.

Zeus - you are right that point was made on CNN as a way to control the Renminbi against other currencies. By not spending this surplus they keep their currency unfairly low against all others, for the obvious reason of cheap exports.

As a chinese, what i hate most r those foriegners who has been in china for a few month or a few years and think they know everthing about china !

im not an expert on politics or economy,not really familiar with the aid u mentioned, but im sure no country would give china money for no reason !its not that we r begging those countries for money and force them to give us! i dont see whats so shameful about it!

i am sure chinese government still has lot to improve on foreign affair, on education system, on human rights, on lots of other things step by step, so dont use the word"shameful" on us, ur government never did anything shameful? why dont u discuss about that and stop judging other country`s politic

and by the way, shanghai or beijing or guangzhou they r not the real china, there r still lots of rural places where millions of people r starving ,no school to go, u can say that china used the money given by developed countries on olympics,but our government our people never stoped on helping those starving people to have a better life ,to help those kids to have proper education!

[Loburt]

I feel your frustration, bkk_maniac. This is a complicated and sensitive issue.

[Manoi]

Feeding the starving poor merely increases their numbers. Better to teach a man to feed himself..... Foreign aid to China should propably end. They are taking giant steps in being able to feed themselves.... I've seen little articles hidden away in fiancial newspapers. China is helping other countries! Albeit in a selfish sort of way. They are lending tons of money to Indonesia to have Chinese power plants built there. They are also building railways in Africa. They are after the resources of course but isn't that a more honorable way to do it? Give economicaly poor but resources rich countries a way to help themsleves by doing business with them. I feel that dumping a ton of money on a poor and corrupt country is just plain stupid.

You are right in that foreign aid should stop in China. At this point it sounds like a joke to keep going.

[patrickbseattle]

I dont feel that China really requires outside aid anymore but many people dislike China on account of human rights, politics, etc and what they dont know is China's amazing success at reducing absolute poverty.

Yes, they have wide gulfs between rich and poor, but just going into a major chinese urban poor area compared to Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia and you can "see" the strides they have made.

On the foreign reserve note, well yes they have massive foreign reserves mostly made of US debt in the form of treasury bonds/bills.

And someone must buy that debt to keep this grand system known as Brenton woods afloat, previously it was Germany, Japan and Korea, now the majority is invested in China.

Sooner or later China will allow the Yuan to move more naturally on the world market, for their own good but at the moment Chinese domestic market is quite small still in comparison to their export ability.

On the resource rich countries well, its often said OIL makes you rich, actually from a economic health standpoint having great natural resources can tend to hold down your drive to accell in industry and business.

Think of Japan, S.korea, singapore,HK germany, the baltic countries to name a few.

They have little in the way of natural resources but they value people and skilled workers.

Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Congo, and the list goes on have amazing mineral/resource wealth but for a variety of reasons lag in economically.

Now I know some are gonna say Wait wait the middle east is rich? But actually a majority of Saudi males are not well off and their income has been falling sharply since the 1980's

It was reported in CNN today that China's foreign reserves will hit $1 trillion this month.

I saw some months ago Japan was "considering" stopping economic aid to China in the way of cheap loans etc. and Canada was also "considering" doing the same.

China, today, gets over a $1billion a year in foreign aid, countries like Canada as an example has given China a billion dollars over the past 10 years and still give $50mil a year.

Go figure this, when millions of people in 3rd world countries are starving to death and having to pay back loans used just to survive, when China, the powerhouse of the manufacturing countries who are putting millions out of work in the very same countries that give this aid and who spends billions upon billions every year on weapons are the recipients of this suck up "aid"!! Shameful.

[MikeAussieGuy]

GoldMember - If you work it out that way sure, but is that the correct way to do it and ignore the billions spent on arms and the Olympics etc. which should be going to the people you mention.

I lived in China for a year and saw the reality of China, not the major cities and the economic zones that most people see.

My point is why give a billion to China, when they spend billions on the aforementioned, have a trillion dollars in trade surplus a world record for foreign reserves by the way, when the bilion should be going to the countries that cant feed themselves nor have the money to spend on arms or the Olympics.

Dont you think it is a sad state of affairs to give aid to a country such as China, why should other countries feed their people when they can do so themselves if they didnt build a few more hundred nukes.

Zeus - you are right that point was made on CNN as a way to control the Renminbi against other currencies. By not spending this surplus they keep their currency unfairly low against all others, for the obvious reason of cheap exports.

As a chinese, what i hate most r those foriegners who has been in china for a few month or a few years and think they know everthing about china !

im not an expert on politics or economy,not really familiar with the aid u mentioned, but im sure no country would give china money for no reason !its not that we r begging those countries for money and force them to give us! i dont see whats so shameful about it!

i am sure chinese government still has lot to improve on foreign affair, on education system, on human rights, on lots of other things step by step, so dont use the word"shameful" on us, ur government never did anything shameful? why dont u discuss about that and stop judging other country`s politic

and by the way, shanghai or beijing or guangzhou they r not the real china, there r still lots of rural places where millions of people r starving ,no school to go, u can say that china used the money given by developed countries on olympics,but our government our people never stoped on helping those starving people to have a better life ,to help those kids to have proper education!

You have missed the point entirely with your opening remarks, yet you do an about face with your last paragraph, which I agree with entirely. And by the way the "foreigners" you hate the most are the same ones that give China "aid" for want of a better word. You dont seem to have a problem with foreigners when they hand out the cash. I might add further a country and government that ranks highly in corruption that sees more money disappearing from the mouths of its people.

If you re-read my posts, you will see what I am saying is, why continue to give China a billion dollars a year in aid, and I might add China and the Chinese people should be ashamed to receive, when China spends $100billion a year, not the published figure of $20billion, on arms. How can you argue that?

It has no right to bludge and accept aid that people in Africa could do better things with, like feeding its starving millions.

Of course my country, like most have done shameful things in the past, but they dont accept aid and we don't embarrass ourselves by doing so. And you say Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou are not indicative of China, I agree 1 billion people dont live in these cities. So why does the goverment keep building massive infrastructure to show off in these exact cities you mentioned, when these are nothing but monuments to its economic power, all "suprisingly" at these very same cities/ main tourist cities, while a billion live in poverty.

Does the government believe they are fooling the world by building such monuments and think people believe the rest of the country is like this?

You have a right to defend your country of course but please dont try to hide the truth. And to finish off, no you dont ask these coutries for the money, but you still take it from these stupid countries that give it, why not take it then open a program for the starving countries, China would get more out of that than building another bridge.

PS My heading is "Shameful Aid to China", my contempt lays more so with the countries that give it.

[dojib854]

According to the World bank and CIAs factbook 8-10% of the chinese are living in poverty. Between 1981 and 2001 it fell from 53% to 8% (source World Bank )

Now this Aussi guy claim a billion Chinese are living in poverty. This would mean there are atleast 12.5 billion Chinese. So where are they all hiding.

I am not sure many other countries can show this kind of development in poverty reduction so why jump on the Chinese? Is it because his favourite teddy bear now is made in China?

It is also common knowledge outside Australia and the US (Sorry Zeus) that the Yuan is not pegged to the USD any longer. In July last year it was devalued and allowed to float. It is a controlled float where it can only trade within a narrow band. However you will find that it is gaining strength against the USD.

[MikeAussieGuy]

According to the World bank and CIAs factbook 8-10% of the chinese are living in poverty. Between 1981 and 2001 it fell from 53% to 8% (source World Bank )

Now this Aussi guy claim a billion Chinese are living in poverty. This would mean there are atleast 12.5 billion Chinese. So where are they all hiding.

I am not sure many other countries can show this kind of development in poverty reduction so why jump on the Chinese? Is it because his favourite teddy bear now is made in China?

It is also common knowledge outside Australia and the US (Sorry Zeus) that the Yuan is not pegged to the USD any longer. In July last year it was devalued and allowed to float. It is a controlled float where it can only trade within a narrow band. However you will find that it is gaining strength against the USD.

Perhaps you need to understand that the word poverty doesn't just mean being able to survive on an income above a certain amount of wage, so let this Aussie guy help you understand by giving you an extract from a UN report, which in fact is relative to China, that explains what poverty means. I guess $1 is a great yardstick to base your wonderful statistic on the poverty of China.

BTW if you open your eyes first instead of trying to be humorous you will see my thread is aimed at the countries that give aid to China and the reasons I believe it is disgraceful which is where I bring China into it. If you think it is ok to give a billion to China and not to a country that needs it then give your reasons why.

Poverty in China

Poverty means far more than simply not having enough money for minimal survival needs. It means the ?denial of opportunities and choices most basic to human development - to lead a long, healthy, creative life and to enjoy a decent standard of living, freedom, dignity, self-esteem and respect from others.? (UNDP, 1997). Poverty affects all aspects of the nation?s life.

It affects the environment, health, education, housing, nutrition and agriculture to name but a few areas. Its ultimate power is in distorting individual?s values, disrupting families and communities, sending millions from the poorer regions to the cities in a desperate search for work. There are at least 80 - 100 million people on the move in China as a result of poverty in the rural areas.

Estimates of the extent of poverty vary depending on which indicators one chooses. Using the government poverty line, China?s rural poor decreased dramatically from 250 million in 1978 (30% of the rural population) to 42 million in 1998 (4.6% of the rural population). Using a standard international poverty line of $1 per day would result in a substantially greater number of absolute poor, but the trend in reduction of poverty is still confirmed. The proportion of the poor in the western provinces increased from less than half of all China?s rural poor in 1988 to more than two thirds in 1996 because poverty reduction efforts have not been as successful in these regions.

When poverty is measured in terms of nutrition, it often seems similar to that measured by the official income poverty line. A report based on National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) household data found that a quarter of the rural population had less than a minimum level of calorie intake in 1990, while a more recent survey in six poor counties found over one third had a per capita income below the national poverty line (Wang and Li, 1998). Linked with this is the high level of under-five mortality which indicates the deterioration of basic public health services, especially in remote poor areas where the infant mortality rate exceeds 100/1000, at least twice the national average.