zeusbheld Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 I wonder if it's genetic at all, these kinds of things..... doubtful that there's a direct link, genes that predispose you toward a preference to destroy yourself before you reproduce would tend to be weeded out from the gene pool because... well, you die before you reproduce. Get out of that one. Hehehheeee... (You're wasted here mate.) Alright then, how about this... Suicidal tendencies could be genetic due to the evolutionary pressure for failing individuals to be removed from the gene pool for the benefit of the community. This is a case where the pressure comes not via successful reprodution but via a successful community sharing common genes. implying what, group selection? maybe i'm not understanding the explanation clearly. in order for it be genetic in the sense of an adaptation rather than a byproduct, it would have to give a survival / reproduction advantage for the gene. how would that work? would it be triggered by influences on its development only under certain circumstances (failure)? or is it just a byproduct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutOfOrder Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 zeus, even so - all your comments ((on whether or not it is genetic)) began with 'DOUBT'. We dont need a solid answer on this subject... bc there wont be one. Its the job for researchers and even so, they are still debating on whether if cabbages are good for your heath or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 I wonder if it's genetic at all, these kinds of things..... doubtful that there's a direct link, genes that predispose you toward a preference to destroy yourself before you reproduce would tend to be weeded out from the gene pool because... well, you die before you reproduce. Get out of that one. Hehehheeee... (You're wasted here mate.) Alright then, how about this... Suicidal tendencies could be genetic due to the evolutionary pressure for failing individuals to be removed from the gene pool for the benefit of the community. This is a case where the pressure comes not via successful reprodution but via a successful community sharing common genes. implying what, group selection? maybe i'm not understanding the explanation clearly. in order for it be genetic in the sense of an adaptation rather than a byproduct, it would have to give a survival / reproduction advantage for the gene. how would that work? would it be triggered by influences on its development only under certain circumstances (failure)? or is it just a byproduct? Most genes are shared by many individuals in a community, and any genes that provide a survival advantage for a community can become prevalent in the wider population. So a gene that makes depressed people remove themselves from the gene pool would still be inherited by mentally stable people, and could eventually become prevalent due to it's affect on the overall reproductive success of the community. Less resources spent on individuals who are less productive and less able to care for children. This of course assumes that clinically depressed people contribute less to the reproductive productivity of a community. I've read other examples of this type of selection but can't remember where right now :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 zeus, even so - all your comments ((on whether or not it is genetic)) began with 'DOUBT'. We dont need a solid answer on this subject... bc there wont be one. Its the job for researchers and even so, they are still debating on whether if cabbages are good for your heath or not. a) science is not about certainty, but sometimes produces semi-solid answers you asked c) i write about this sort of thing for a living (admittedly TF posts don't have to pass through quality control) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 I wonder if it's genetic at all, these kinds of things..... doubtful that there's a direct link, genes that predispose you toward a preference to destroy yourself before you reproduce would tend to be weeded out from the gene pool because... well, you die before you reproduce. Get out of that one. Hehehheeee... (You're wasted here mate.) Alright then, how about this... Suicidal tendencies could be genetic due to the evolutionary pressure for failing individuals to be removed from the gene pool for the benefit of the community. This is a case where the pressure comes not via successful reprodution but via a successful community sharing common genes. implying what, group selection? maybe i'm not understanding the explanation clearly. in order for it be genetic in the sense of an adaptation rather than a byproduct, it would have to give a survival / reproduction advantage for the gene. how would that work? would it be triggered by influences on its development only under certain circumstances (failure)? or is it just a byproduct? Most genes are shared by many individuals in a community, and any genes that provide a survival advantage for a community can become prevalent in the wider population. So a gene that makes depressed people remove themselves from the gene pool would still be inherited by mentally stable people, and could eventually become prevalent due to it's affect on the overall reproductive success of the community. Less resources spent on individuals who are less productive and less able to care for children. This of course assumes that clinically depressed people contribute less to the reproductive productivity of a community. I've read other examples of this type of selection but can't remember where right now :? seems plausible but odd in this particular case. i find it more likely that specific actions like suicide aren't genetic but a) people (and mammals in general) are born wired for a full pallette of emotions chemically, diffierent individuals might be 'tuned' a certain way, including depressive. c) depressive tendencies, for example, don't get weeded out because they don't result in suicide often enough to impair the depressive's chances of reproducing. i suspect if there's a pro-suicide gene, it's not very good at what it does--if one thinks of how many people one has met who profess to be suicidal at one time or another, and compares it to how many people one has met who actually offed themselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farang_subson Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 A bit of screwy biology going on here.... There certainly could be a "suicide gene", just as there are genes for fatal diseases of all sorts. You get one copy of the sickling gene, it'll protect you from malaria...you get two, and you'll probably die before you're 20. The benefit of having one copy of the gene simply outweighs the disadvantage of having two. There does seem to be a predisposition toward depression...plenty of studies have been done on the subject. Maybe you could call it a "suicide gene". As for Neo's explanation, it certainly does smell of "group selection"...the idea that creatures act out of a desire to "benefit the species". That's a big, but common, misunderstanding of evolution (though there might be just a bit of wiggle room for it in some very specific cases). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutOfOrder Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 zeus, 1) i did not say you were wrong or he is right, I'm just saying there is no need to fight over a matter that none of us can 100% prove that we are correct. 2) i did not 'ask', i said.... 'i wonder if' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_love_som_tam Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 seems plausible but odd in this particular case. i find it more likely that specific actions like suicide aren't genetic but a) people (and mammals in general) are born wired for a full pallette of emotions chemically, diffierent individuals might be 'tuned' a certain way, including depressive. c) depressive tendencies, for example, don't get weeded out because they don't result in suicide often enough to impair the depressive's chances of reproducing. i suspect if there's a pro-suicide gene, it's not very good at what it does--if one thinks of how many people one has met who profess to be suicidal at one time or another, and compares it to how many people one has met who actually offed themselves... i have found that the people that claim to be "suicidal" are the ones that will make half assed attempts and then call for help. the ones that do commit suicide never make that call for help and in many cases they have reached an emotional overload and make the decision to end it all on the spur of the moment. these are usually the messy ones involving firearms. i have investigated cases, however, where the act was completely thought out and executed with no mess. this was usually in the case of terminally ill people that did not want to be a burden on their spouses or children. one guy's poor wife kept finding notes in the house for months on how to take care of this, when to pay this bill, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 zeus,1) i did not say you were wrong or he is right, I'm just saying there is no need to fight over a matter that none of us can 100% prove that we are correct. 2) i did not 'ask', i said.... 'i wonder if' 1) who is fighting? and what matters are there that ANYONE can prove they are 100 percent correct? the only one i can think of is that people who claim to be 100 percent correct about anything tend to be at least partially full of ****. 2) if you're wondering in a forum people take it as a question and will respond whether they know anything or not. it's a forum. that's what people DO here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 seems plausible but odd in this particular case. i find it more likely that specific actions like suicide aren't genetic but a) people (and mammals in general) are born wired for a full pallette of emotions chemically, diffierent individuals might be 'tuned' a certain way, including depressive. c) depressive tendencies, for example, don't get weeded out because they don't result in suicide often enough to impair the depressive's chances of reproducing. i suspect if there's a pro-suicide gene, it's not very good at what it does--if one thinks of how many people one has met who profess to be suicidal at one time or another, and compares it to how many people one has met who actually offed themselves... i have found that the people that claim to be "suicidal" are the ones that will make half assed attempts and then call for help. the ones that do commit suicide never make that call for help and in many cases they have reached an emotional overload and make the decision to end it all on the spur of the moment. these are usually the messy ones involving firearms. i have investigated cases, however, where the act was completely thought out and executed with no mess. this was usually in the case of terminally ill people that did not want to be a burden on their spouses or children. one guy's poor wife kept finding notes in the house for months on how to take care of this, when to pay this bill, etc. that's a good point--all suicides are not even motivated by the same things. the terminal patients, burn victims in excruciating pain, etc. are making a rational choice, the messy ones, emotional overload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutOfOrder Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 rite! that does it!!! ( i shouldnt have WONDERED on this site in one of my random thoughts on a random thread...) ((normally IF i'm really THAT curious, i just google it anway....) http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2006-28,RNWE:en&q=is+suicidal+genetic Suicide Risk Runs in FamiliesWith regard to family history of suicide, the pathway may be genetic, biochemical, ... Psychotherapy in Treating the Chronically Suicidal Patient ... www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/related/suicide_9.asp - 21k - Cached - Similar pages High-Suicide Families Eyed By Genetic ScientistsSuicide can run in families, but psychiatrists aren't sure whether high-suicide families are plagued by genetic inheritance or learned behavior. www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/related/suicide_13.asp - 24k - Cached - Similar pages The Neurobiology and Genetics of Suicide and Attempted Suicide: A ...The Neurobiology and Genetics of Suicide and Attempted Suicide: A Focus on ... genetic factors mediate the risk for suicidal behavior independently of the ... www.nature.com/npp/journal/v24/n5/abs/1395636a.html - 27k - Cached - Similar pages The Neurobiology and Genetics of Suicide and Attempted Suicide: A ...Adoption and family studies indicate that suicidal acts have a genetic contribution in terms of cause or diathesis that is independent of the heritability ... www.nature.com/npp/journal/v24/n5/full/1395636a.html - 115k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from www.nature.com ] Suicidal genetic elements and their use in biological containment ...Suicidal genetic elements and their use in biological containment of bacteria. S MOLIN, L BOE, LB JENSEN, CS KRISTENSEN, M GIVSKOV, JL RAMOS, AK BEJ ... cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3774458 - Similar pages Genetic risk factors as possible causes of the variation in ...The proposal that there is a genetic aetiological component to suicidal behaviour does not mean that psychosocial and other risk factors also are not ... bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/179/3/194 - Similar pages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutOfOrder Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 i have found that the people that claim to be "suicidal" are the ones that will make half assed attempts and then call for help. the ones that do commit suicide never make that call for help and in many cases they have reached an emotional overload and make the decision to end it all on the spur of the moment. these are usually the messy ones involving firearms. i totally agree. i had friends who did that. Almost announcing to the whole world of the precise time they are going to slash their throat. to me, that's an annoying behavior. Suicidal shouldnt be used as an 'attention seeking' material. And it's nothing 'COOL' to be suicidal. Off course, I've never mentioned or make known to anyone about my symptoms... until this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutOfOrder Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 ...........considering my mom did not commit suicide....... and my grandma's case wasnt an 'intentional' suicide attempt.....Tho my uncle died at 53 bc he 'would not' treat his cancer. My grandpa WAS one severe case of an alcoholic abuse. i guess it's just the 'mad' genes going on in my family!..... The big urge the reduce our life span, without putting guilts on ourselves and who we leave behind. I WAS suicidal, but now i know i would never commit it. Well, not by jumping off a cliff anyway. But i do abuse my body the same way my family did.... That still takes me to a minimum of age 33.... I dont care if its in the genes or not, but it would be GREAT if it is! - That way they wont blame me too much for my lifestyle. Well, i dont have much relatives to point fingers at me anyway.... most of the are dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave40 Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Maybe in regards to suicide there is not enough help out there for people who suffer with a mental illness it's still a taboo subject, but not as bad as it once was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 There is no rhyme or reason and whilst I admire the many intellects on the board putting forward their well thought out explanations of why people top themselves I think it's safe to say sh*t happens and who knows? you mind if i use that as the abstract of my dissertation on the subject? pretty much sums it up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impossible_me Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Aom some reason they can't tell you why did they try to suicide, alot of aspect life,it's up the last answer they cant answered themselve, if they thoug they want to go and thought it's the best ways for them they will do,but i'ld tell you that the birth is not easy, aborting the aborted coz they can't reponse the baby it's better than give born and don't take care i though it'ld be the inferiority complex of kids OK it's just personal idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 Without wishing to overstay my welcome in this thread, for anyone who wants to read about abortion and it's affects on society from a completely mathmatical point of view, go and read a book called 'Freakanomics'. A very interesting book that covers abortion in one chapter and breaks down a few widely assumed misconceptions with cold hard maths. freakonomics is hot ****. i know a few economists who find it boring and obvious, but they obviously aren't the people who post impassioned comments on hot-button issues in TF. as for overstaying one's welcome in a thread... c'mon man, all the kid's are doing it... what are ya, chicken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 13, 2006 Report Share Posted November 13, 2006 revisiting the likelihood of a genetic component to the urge toward suicide, it wouldn't necessarily have to be an adaptation to get passed on. suicide already seems to be an inefficient enough killer to survive as a harmful mutation on a recessive gene, the way many diseases get passed on. i didnt read them but spamela googled a lot of articles about the possibility of a genetic component to suicide. some looked like peer-reviewed journal articles, which lends them a fair degree of credibility. anecdotal experience (*my* experience) comparing the pasts of people i know who have attempted or even professed an interest in suicide to people who never have, suggests a genetic component in that many of the people with the worst early lives never contemplated suicide and some people with pretty cushy lives thought about it (for example i knew a dancer, a spoilt brat who wanted to off herself for a while just coz she was getting older and couldnt be a ballerina forever). my verdict: genetic component to suicide=B+ traumatic abortion-attempt memories, however, assuming that the abortion was attempted during the normal, range of the pregnancy, are highly unlikely to have caused any emotional trauma to an individual later in life. I do not follow this issue closely but from what i know of the viability of the foetus at various stages, this happening would require some supernatural element. In other words, it requires a belief in ghosts, or not only a belief in immortal souls but a belief that they are both sentient and conscious. if someone can come up with a more plausible scenario where the foetus could be emotionally scarred without invoking magic i'd love to hear it. my verdict: indivdiual traumatized by mom attempting to abort them (without their ever finding out) D- all of course, is subject to change based on what the facts revealed by scientific research are, how they fit together, and what theories they fail to destroy. bottom line: most people (self included) don't understand enough of the science involved to have an informed opinion although that stops no one (self included). however, scientific evidence should play a major if not THE major role in framing the debate and especially determining policy. which, of course, is highly unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutOfOrder Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 My mom read to me about this case where... A girl got pregnant and her mother did not approve it. The whole time during pregnancy, this mother would curse at her child as well as to the unborn baby. When the baby came out, it's body was brutally defected. And so, according to the book a continuous curse from a mother/parent COULD cause a real physical damage! so therefore, i google searched.... once again.... "As long as you have the blessing of your parents it does not matter even if you live in the mountains." This is an indication of the value that is placed on the blessing of a parent towards a child in a child's life. It is considered a very bad omen in one's life if they lose the blessing of a parent. What the saying basically says is that don't concern yourself with where you live, concern yourself with your parents blessing. In such, it is better to live in the mountains then to not have the blessing of a parent. In Greek superstition a curse of a parent is considered dangerous, especially a curse of a mother. Be sure to check the Greek superstition surrounding the losing of the blessing of a parent The Danger of a Parent's Curse. http://www.greekspider.com/greek_sayings/greek_sayings.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 I rest his caserevisiting the likelihood of a genetic component to the urge toward suicide, it wouldn't necessarily have to be an adaptation to get passed on. suicide already seems to be an inefficient enough killer to survive as a harmful mutation on a recessive gene, the way many diseases get passed on. i didnt read them but spamela googled a lot of articles about the possibility of a genetic component to suicide. some looked like peer-reviewed journal articles, which lends them a fair degree of credibility. anecdotal experience (*my* experience) comparing the pasts of people i know who have attempted or even professed an interest in suicide to people who never have, suggests a genetic component in that many of the people with the worst early lives never contemplated suicide and some people with pretty cushy lives thought about it (for example i knew a dancer, a spoilt brat who wanted to off herself for a while just coz she was getting older and couldnt be a ballerina forever). my verdict: genetic component to suicide=B+ traumatic abortion-attempt memories, however, assuming that the abortion was attempted during the normal, range of the pregnancy, are highly unlikely to have caused any emotional trauma to an individual later in life. I do not follow this issue closely but from what i know of the viability of the foetus at various stages, this happening would require some supernatural element. In other words, it requires a belief in ghosts, or not only a belief in immortal souls but a belief that they are both sentient and conscious. if someone can come up with a more plausible scenario where the foetus could be emotionally scarred without invoking magic i'd love to hear it. my verdict: indivdiual traumatized by mom attempting to abort them (without their ever finding out) D- all of course, is subject to change based on what the facts revealed by scientific research are, how they fit together, and what theories they fail to destroy. bottom line: most people (self included) don't understand enough of the science involved to have an informed opinion although that stops no one (self included). however, scientific evidence should play a major if not THE major role in framing the debate and especially determining policy. which, of course, is highly unlikely. oh no, there's more. someone i know brought up the notion that *not* being inclined to suicide might be an adaptation, which would boost the 'genetic component of suicidal tendencies" to an A- in my book. the abortion voodoo still gets a D- from me but i will concede that many thais believe in ghosts and having seen a (dreadfully bad) thai ghost movie on the subject of abortion, for them it's probalby a B+ to A-. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 Oh, and people who kill themselves by jumping infront of trains really should think about other people a bit more. Not only does someone have to clear the mess up afterwards, but it delays God knows how many people as well. That really is a selfish way to top yourself. agree. OH HELL YEAH. couldn't ya have saved up and fed y'self to sharks? *******. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutOfOrder Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 the voodoo drama wasn't a THAI book. *cough* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 zeus, even so - all your comments ((on whether or not it is genetic)) began with 'DOUBT'. We dont need a solid answer on this subject... bc there wont be one. Its the job for researchers and even so, they are still debating on whether if cabbages are good for your heath or not. You're the only one who might know what's in you, no researcher will ever work on individuals. They only work on species and types and then type come to conclusions like 'well, not evolutionary viable'. And this is a very narrow angle indeed. Who gives a f*ck about research if you see it in your family and in yourself. That's your story, including how much you wish to attribute value to your idea. Don't let fancy vocabulary lead you away from what you believe about yourself. this is an interesting tack. most of our experience will never be rigorously observed enough by anyone to qualify as science, yet you can make guesses based on your experience. and if you're honest with yourself about your life experience your guesses will be better than if you just make decisions based on impulse, or decisions based on vaguely relevant scientific principles. in spamela's case for example, one thing that is fairly solid whether nature (genetic) or nurture (environment) is that there is a long line of people with suicidal tendencies in her family. whether it is nature or nurture is irrelevant in practical terms, either way it is passed on through your family. as borat errr kazakh said evolution works primarily on species-wide traits. it's useful for understanding how we're put together in broad strokes but tells me sweet **** all about why i have had 2 colds in 3 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 I'm out of my depth whenever zeusbheld posts something. I can't even tell if he's taking the piss or not. and the answer is: he is taking the piss. and not. for those not capable of entertaining multiple realities simultaneously, feel free to pick one. <<and don't be afraid of the depths, a lot of things can be piled high and deep, buffalos can create as much depth as PhDs, they just use different building materials>> All that intelligence is wasted on a website. perhaps the emperor isn't as well-dressed as you think or he wouldn't be here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeusbheld Posted November 14, 2006 Report Share Posted November 14, 2006 as i've said, if one believes in ghosts, then explaining this is a done deal. if not, firstly, one cannot rule out coincidence. secondly, emotions leave (or are caused by?) combinations of chemicals in your body (simplistic but in broad strokes not too wrong). it is entirely possible that while in the case of the abortion attempt described previously the abortion attempt itself didn't harm the baby but the chemical environment created by the mothers emotions influenced the mother's emotions and f**ked the baby over royally. My mom read to me about this case where... A girl got pregnant and her mother did not approve it. The whole time during pregnancy, this mother would curse at her child as well as to the unborn baby. When the baby came out, it's body was brutally defected. And so, according to the book a continuous curse from a mother/parent COULD cause a real physical damage!so therefore, i google searched.... once again.... "As long as you have the blessing of your parents it does not matter even if you live in the mountains." This is an indication of the value that is placed on the blessing of a parent towards a child in a child's life. It is considered a very bad omen in one's life if they lose the blessing of a parent. What the saying basically says is that don't concern yourself with where you live, concern yourself with your parents blessing. In such, it is better to live in the mountains then to not have the blessing of a parent. In Greek superstition a curse of a parent is considered dangerous, especially a curse of a mother. Be sure to check the Greek superstition surrounding the losing of the blessing of a parent The Danger of a Parent's Curse. http://www.greekspider.com/greek_sayings/greek_sayings.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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