Is Israel in the wrong place??

[Stramash]

Just finished a fascinating book called 'the bible came from arabia' by an academic called Kamal Salibi. His basic premise is that the reasoning behind Israel's geographic position (the abramanic covenant where God promised the land inhabited by the Jews at that time as their home forever) is wrong.

His argument for this is that all the landmarks and places mentione din the Old Testament do not correspond in any way with places in the Israel/Palestine area. Now this is not to say that they did not inhabit the current area at the time of Christ (of which there is really no dispute) but that they did not live there when the big chap/chappess upstairs promised them the lands in pepetuity. A lot of this is to do with misinterpretations of the old testament (the oldest existing copy dates from 9th century ad) which had been transalted from language to language over the centuries.

No archaelogical evidence exists at all that links current Israeli territories with anyhwere mentioned in Old Testament.

He goes on to pretty much prove that the land talked about in Old Testament actually lies within what is now known as Saudi Arabia!!! There is lots of coincidence between modern place names in Arabia and Old Testament place names and there is also very persuasive geographical and geological matching between the two.

His book was published in 1985 and to add fuel to the debate, the Saudi government bulldozed several villages in the Asir area shortly afterward, and to this day have refused permission to any archaelogical group wanting to explore the area.

With all the existing conflict in the Middle East since Israel started the nakba, could you imagine what would happen if incontrevertible proof was found that Israel should not only be somewhere else in the region but should also encompass Mecca within its boundaries!!

There have been attempts on salibi's life (mossad or saudi's - take your pick) but the evidence is very persuasive that the siting of Israel was a bit of a cock up!!

[Loburt]

Arabian Knight

Or, Yet Another Conspiracy Theory of Christian Origins

James Patrick Holding

Yes, it's yet another one of those "everyone's got it wrong, I've got it right" conspiracy theorists, and while we don't necessarily think all such people are out of whack because they are Lone Rangers, it takes a lot of evidence (like David Rohl provides, for example) to get us to even think of giving up a seat. What we end up with in this case is another rule rather than an exception.

A recent letter-writer asked us to look into the work of Kamal Salibi, and two of his books in particular: The Bible Came from Arabia and Who Was Jesus? ("Not who you think he was!", of course.) The former is a far more technical book and we can say little about any of Salibi's assertions about the Aramaic language. However, the thesis of this book is that Bible place names have been "consistently mistranslated" and that all OT events actually happened not in Palestine, but on the western shores of Arabia, and to accomplish this thesis, Salibi moves the pieces around as needed.

The impetus for the thesis was quite mundane. Salibi was looking at an atlas of Arabia, and had an epiphany: He recognized a mess of place names from the Bible that were supposed to be in Palestine. On the other hand, he thinks there is not enough evidence to connect these place names to Palestine. Ergo, the OT events took place in Arabia. Now even on the surface Salibi seems to have gotten excited prematurely. For one thing, no evidence at all is provided that any of these Arabian locales existed as long as 2400-3500 years ago by their names. Salibi begs off that perhaps archaeology will one day verify his conclusions, and we will presumably find vast evidence beneath Arabian soil of the "real" Jewish locale. But more than that, this is a mountain out of an unsighted molehill. Consider how many place names we have in the USA with duplicate names: Miami. Albany. Columbus. How many places do you know named "Shady Oak"? It does not occur to Salibi as it should that many Biblical names are just the sort of thing we would expect people to come up with elsewhere in the same cultural milieu at any given time. This in spite of the fact that he admits that a) some names are repeated several times even within Arabia (there are, he tells us, five Hebrons in this area [111]); he admits that there was a later Jewish population in this area (And would we not expect them to use some of the old homeland names? -- Salibi even admits that later "nostalgic immigrants" to Palestine might have renamed sites after the old homeland, so why not the other way around?).

Especially of interest is the way in which Salibi explains away some major problems for his thesis. What, um, about that Jews clearly lived in Palestine during the Roman era? No problem: After the Exile, everyone returned to Arabia, but didn't like it anymore, so they moved to Palestine and forgot all about their old homeland, with some help from the Hasmonean kings, who were intent on establishing their claim to Palestine [17-18, 22]. Um, well, what about things like the Tunnel of Siloam in Jerusalem which match what the OT reports about Hezekiah? Again, no problem: all kinds of cities build water tunnels for all sorts of reasons, and no inscription connected to the tunnel actually says the city is Jerusalem. Well, darn it, what about people like the Moabites who we have clear evidence for in things like the Moabite stone, found right where we would expect? Again, pouf, bam! Actually the Moabites used to live down in Arabia too, but the Israelites knocked them flat, so they moved to Palestine to get away from them and then carved the Moabite Stone. What about features like the Jordan River? We don't have time to divert into how the present Jordan got that name, we are told, but nothing in the Bible says the Jordan was a river; it was actually an escarpment that water ran down and along. In the meantime, Salibi informs us that OT scholaship as a whole has been careless, dishonest, and have been making up stuff as they go along to explain things away. There's that pot calling the kettle black again.

Telling enough it is, though, how Salibi covers himself. Don't agree with him? You're probably biased, he informs us politely: "...only purblind traditionalists are unlikely to grant me the benefit of the doubt..." And what about dealing with the vast amount of contrary scholarship? We are assured that he did, but "it seemed unnecessary to burden the reader with point-by-point refutations of previous findings." I've got a secret plan; elect me President and I'll tell you what it is! This tactical charade is continued in his later book on Jesus, which overall merely repeats the same arguments we have refuted on this site, uses the Koran as a preferred and reliable source about Jesus, mirror-reads rivalry into everything (the Pastoral invective against "endless geneaologies" is a slam against Matthew and Luke), dismisses the Gospels as "barely coherent" and contradictory, and as not being biographical in nature (not knowing that they are ancient biographies in format!); claims that Acts was written by the Jerusalem group to make Paul look like one of them, and that it contradicts Paul's letters (see here), and declares that there were two Jesuses: the one in the first century in Palestine, and one in the fifth century BC who was in Arabia. Paul went to Arabia and discovered that the two were being mixed together by the Jerusalem apostles, but kept his mouth shut about it, and here we are. And Judas was from Arabia too, and that is where he killed himself.

How much trust does Salibi deserve? None at all. He tells us, "I acquainted myself with the available scholarly literature on the New Testament, which is extremely interesting, but I shall bother you with it as little as possible." Imagine someone else saying: "I want to help you make a nuclear bomb. I acquainted myself with the available scholarly literature on nuclear fission, which is extremely interesting, but I shall bother you with it as little as possible." From the quality of Salibi's material, I would suspect such a one's "acquaintance" to amount to glancing at the relevant literature as they passed it on the shelves of the library while heading for the Where's Waldo? books.

[Loburt]

Phillip C. Hammond's 1990 Review of The Bible Came from Arabia, in The International Journal of Mid East Studies

It is difficult to understand how such a volume could have been foisted upon an unsuspecting public. Perhaps the scholarly reader will find a certain degree of amusement in appreciated the skill of the author in his attempted linguistic exercises, but the lay reader might, regretably, be misled by the appearance of the "scholarship" presented.

To assume that similar, or even identical, place names are proof of "identity" between two places is palpably absurd. To declare that archaeology, with its modern chronometric techniques, cannot place occupations correctly is contrary to fact . To ignore the linguistic analyses of biblical Hebrew from the Massoretes to modern scholarship is presumptuous.

To dismiss casually all modern scholarship in the field is unscholarly in the extreme. To display ignorance of published archaeological and other data in favor of selected, "favorable" quotations is likewise not the way knowledge is advanced.

[Stramash]

wow!! excellent reply Loburt and much to think about!! A lot of your points very valid and I will certainly go off and read some more on this. On first reading I did find Salibi compelling in many of his arguments but as with most literature of this type, did appreciate that there were occasional leaps between fact and guesswork.

In some ways I guess we will never 100% know. You mention biblical hebrew somewhere in your post, but this doesnt actually exist anywhere in it's original form of around 2-300 BC. Translations can be like Chinese whispers, a change of word or context in a sentence can alter the entire meaning that the original was trying to convey and when you take those sort of changes across an entire book, then a lot of misunderstanding can occur.

Off to do some more research!! (well after work anyway)

[Loburt]

There are a few supportive reviews of this guy's work too.

But I tend to be skeptical of a book published a couple of decades ago that hasn't seemed to gain any real traction in serious academic circles.

[zeusbheld]

There are a few supportive reviews of this guy's work too.

But I tend to be skeptical of a book published a couple of decades ago that hasn't seemed to gain any real traction in serious academic circles.

agree; contrary to popular opinion, legit controversial work tends to do very, very well in academic circles. without doing any in-depth research myself, i'm guessing that his theories are substantial (or substantiated) enough to be taken seriously by the vast majority of archaeologists etc.

burden of proof is always on the one proposing the alternative or 'outlier' hypothesis.

btw there's NOTHING we'll ever 100 percent know. EVER.

[Stramash]

An unholy row has erupted over efforts to excavate one of the world's most politically sensitive places.

Silwan is a small hill outside Jerusalem thought to be the original site of the city, when it was built three thousand years ago.

It is a Palestinian neighbourhood but more Jewish settlers are moving in.

An Israeli Government report found false documents had been used to label Palestinian houses in Silwan as "absentee property", which allowed them to be seized.

As a result, Palestinians were thrown out of their homes and the Israeli Government began excavation work under Silwan.

Critics say the archeology at the site is being hijacked by Jewish settler groups trying to prove a Jewish connection to the site thousands of years ago.

The excavations have discovered tunnels that have remained undisturbed for 2,000 years.

But Palestinians say their homes and businesses are being damaged by the work which is causing the roads to crack.

Anger is growing between settlers and their claim over the land.

Rafi Greenberg, an Israeli archaeologist opposed to the digs, said: "Their religious ideology is rebuilding the third temple and establishing jewish hegemony over all of Jerusalem, and leaving the Palestinians as a tolerated minority."

Arik Asherman, who heads Rabbis for Human Rights, was jailed for a night this month after protesting against the settlers in Silwan.

"They want, through some legal means and some not-so-legal means, to do anything they can to expel Palestinians and that's their aim, and they even have recruited archaeology in an unholy alliance."

Salibi may have made some wild shots in the dark, but the Israelis still seem desperate to prove they were there long before the time of Christ!!

[Loburt]

It's funny how you write "the Israelis" when the article quotes several Israelis who disagree and are opposed to what the settlers are doing.

Including a rabbi who was jailed.

[Stramash]

I wrote the Israelis because thats who is doing it. Yes, there is opposition and I take my hat off to those who are standing up to this. What term woul dbe more acceptable?? The Israeli Government?? Meant nothing by my usage of the term, just stating fact. Not insinuating that every man, woman and child of Israeli nationality are doing this, just the state and those idiots determined to prolong nakba chasing dreams and legends :twisted:

[Loburt]

You could have said some Israelis, or Israeli settlers or even some in the Israeli government, instead of the monolithic "the Israelis."

If I wrote the Palestinians support using suicide bombers to kill women and children, would you think that statement is fair? Or would it bother you?

And I don't think anyone is desperate to prove that Israelis lived in Israel long before the time of Christ. Most people accept that they did.

[Stramash]

would 'The Zionists' bothered you as much??

[Loburt]

Yes, because not all Zionists would agree with what certain groups are doing.

Just as every member of Hamas does not support suicide bombings of innocents.

[sushi_romance]

Here 'what certain groups are doing'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7351024.stm

Yes, another 'day of unrest'.

Five children for three soldiers.

Sounds about fair, if you're a racist.

All in all another successful cleansing operation, 22 new dead people in a day.

In Israel, Sderot - under sustained ROCKET attack for so many years - 13 people have died in the last 7 years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7346940.stm

I don't think it needs more comment, unless you're one of the dead of course.

[Loburt]

well, you should know, shouldn't you.

[sunsnow]

Seems they blasted also Reuters tv car in another "incident". War, such a lovely thing. Also kill 3 soldiers and otherside revenges by killing 11 civilians. I guess that's just uh, fair.

[sushi_romance]

well, you should know, shouldn't you.

Yes, I'll confess it now, I'm not a Jew, it probably destroys my ability to have a balanced view on events like this where 'certain groups' (well, THE ISRAELI ARMY let's say) go out to kill a couple of dozen bystanders on a sunny day in what is nothing but a revenge killing we can find in any War.

And the media calls it a day of unrest.

Like there was another bout of rain.

[CiaranM]

Just finished a fascinating book called 'the bible came from arabia' by an academic called Kamal Salibi. His basic premise is that the reasoning behind Israel's geographic position (the abramanic covenant where God promised the land inhabited by the Jews at that time as their home forever) is wrong.

There have been attempts on salibi's life (mossad or saudi's - take your pick) but the evidence is very persuasive that the siting of Israel was a bit of a cock up!!

surely what the bible says or what god is supposed to have promised the jews as their homeland 2,000+ years ago shouldn't have been the basis for deciding where israel should have been located in any case !!!!

[Loburt]

well, you should know, shouldn't you.

Yes, I'll confess it now, I'm not a Jew, it probably destroys my ability to have a balanced view on events like this

No, but the bigoted comments you made about Jews that got you yellow carded (not by me) are good evidence that you have no ability to have a balanced view on events.

[sushi_romance]

well, you should know, shouldn't you.

Yes, I'll confess it now, I'm not a Jew, it probably destroys my ability to have a balanced view on events like this

No, but the bigoted comments you made about Jews that got you yellow carded (not by me) are good evidence that you have no ability to have a balanced view on events.

We all know what balanced view means in your vocabulary.

Precisely the one I'm referring to above.

If that's the one I should aim for then yes I think I'll take bigoted.

Starts sounding like a compliment when you use it.

In terms of the argument at hand it still means you're the sad argumentative jerk who uses ad hominem when current events don't comply with his balanced views.

Anything to say about that buddy? The numbers, the coffins?

What does justice mean in your balanced worldview?

[Loburt]

I think the consensus for a while now has been that you are the biggest jerk on the site.

Wanna post another of your narcissistic psychotic journals where you don't allow anyone to comment ...

...because you know the comments will all be what a jerk you are.

Aside from your proven track record of bigotry.

I mean really. You post this garbage and allow no comments. What a wimp.

I don't recall anyone on the site accusing me of being a bigot. Except for you.

Maybe you would like to write one of your psychotic journals about it, buddy?

[GoldMember]

Yes ...should move the whole lot to NYC .Not only has it the largest Jewish population outside metropolitan Tel Aviv but also a Wall (St) that is currently wailing very loudly.

[steevolution]

and maybe that's where the Jewish state should have gone. the Ashkenazy Jews, armed to the teeth, including nuclear weapons, keepin the former Nazi state in line. sounds perfect. maybe it's not too late to pull up stakes and get it done.

and then the "holy land" of the "three great faiths" can be irradiated and made permanently uninhabitable, as a monument to human stupidity, grasping small-mindedness, and all-around idiocy. (the Palestinians can bunk with their other Arab brethren, who love them soooooo much.)

[secretsazngirl]

and maybe that's where the Jewish state should have gone. the Ashkenazy Jews, armed to the teeth, including nuclear weapons, keepin the former Nazi state in line. sounds perfect. maybe it's not too late to pull up stakes and get it done.

Hey! i like the idea alot .

[paulgh3rd]

Just finished a fascinating book called 'the bible came from arabia' by an academic called Kamal Salibi. His basic premise is that the reasoning behind Israel's geographic position (the abramanic covenant where God promised the land inhabited by the Jews at that time as their home forever) is wrong.

There have been attempts on salibi's life (mossad or saudi's - take your pick) but the evidence is very persuasive that the siting of Israel was a bit of a cock up!!

surely what the bible says or what god is supposed to have promised the jews as their homeland 2,000+ years ago shouldn't have been the basis for deciding where israel should have been located in any case !!!!

OMG it had to happen some time I actually agree with Ciaran. besides Between Jewish money and Saudi money this guys work would never get anyway I'm surprised it got published in the first place. Sugessting the homeland of the Zionist holds the holiest of Islamic shrines and there is no fatwa against him?

With any of the major religions there are always extremeists and when polictics gets thrown in nothing can go right or good! Jews who have persecuted around the world had a group in an orthodox part of Isreal buring Bibles from Christian Missionaries. The Orthodox aren't they suppose to be ones most closely following god's rules of acceptance, love, and compassion? Maybe it's all the crack I'm on again I misunderstood that message. lol

[Mazzy]

WTF! Based on the last 3 posts, this forum is getting out of control. I predict a lot of dumb things will be said here in the next few hours...