Trouble in Thailand!

[zeusbheld]

He is a hero to me. I read his biography, it was amazing.

but khun zeus, it's difference time and difference people.

believe me you are so lucky that you don't have gov. like Thai gov. (not sarcastic)

can you honestly say Samak, Toxin et al are worse than the Raj? seems to me Ghandi was up against a tougher situation.

If you asked me... if I was sitting there and strict on the way of "Ahimsa" or nonviolent as Gandhi did, to be honest... I couldn't do. I have to do something to protect myself.

well, i think when PPP supporters come armed with sticks, i'd be inclined to hit them back, but there were already several instances of violence. surely there are more creative, less violent approaches?

yes Civil disobedience is action to show that people refuse to obey Gov. in nonviolent way such as going into the gov. house. Some friends asked me what's purpose of breaking thru there. It's just a SYMBOL, cuz heart of Gov. is Gov. house.

breaking in and seizing government property through intimidation is NOT nonviolent. neither is beating the **** out of toursits trying to get past your picket line to the airport. perhaps you should reread Ghandi's biography.

Anyway, if I was Samak I would step down long time ago. It's not because of PAD. but it's about what he did. I didn't talk about nominee of Taksin na.

It's about his cases... I don't think Mr.Prime minister should have kind of that stuff. As far as I know there is a Samak case, the court said that he would guilty

seems Samak has a lot ot answer for, that's pretty well known. however, if he did indeed buy votes, ought it not be possible to, oh, i don't know, prove it in court and oust him that way?

i'm no fan of Samak or Toxin but PAD have hardly conducted themselves honorably either.

[allseasonsman]

Sad to say it is not looking too good for Thailand right now. The country is in such bad shape now. Thailand's image is being trashed around the world. video footage of street violence repeated on the hour every hour makes Thailand lok backward and ungovernable. The inability of the society to function properly in a political way has left the clear impression that it is in free fall and is not even aware of it.

In a special comment released on Tuesday, Thomas Byrne, the Singapore-based Senior Vice President in Moody's Sovereign Risk Group, had the following to say:

"Escalating political uncertainties -- in view of the stand-off between protestors and the country's coalition government -- do pose a threat to not only the democratically elected government of Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej, but also to long-term economic stability."

Moody's assigned "Baa1' sovereign ratings to Thailand.

Previously, in the aftermath of the September 2006 coup that had ousted democratically elected Prime Minister Thaksin, Thailand's policy framework had proven durable and the country's fiscal and external credit fundamentals remained intact, although a full restoration of investor confidence proved elusive.

"However, the rise in political uncertainty over the past couple of months -- coupled with a mixed economic performance -- is clouding the economic horizon, making a restoration of investor confidence even doubtful in the near future," says Byrne.

"The occupation of Government House and the siege of the Phuket and Krabi airports by the so-called People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) calls into question not only the viability of democracy in Thailand, but also the political neutrality of the court system, which has failed to enforce its own injunction against the actions of the PAD," says Byrne.

"If counter-demonstrations by the ruling-party friendly Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship match the intensity and disruptiveness of the PAD, then a polarization could intensify to the point where political stability is jeopardized, so raising the specter of intervention again by the army," says Byrne.

Byrne also says that more stress seems to be building up on Thailand's external payments position than compared with what happened in the wake of the September 2006 coup, and official foreign exchange reserves are declining from their May peak, although they are still large enough to cushion against any shocks related to foreign creditor confidence in the near term.

"In conclusion, the escalation of political disturbances has introduced new uncertainties which compound the economic challenges facing Thailand, as well as other Southeast Asian economies, from the deterioration in global economic conditions," says Byrne.

Byrne was speaking on conjunction with the release of a Moody's special comment -- which he authored -- on the outlook for Thailand. The report is entitled, "Thailand's Political Uncertainties Overshadow Its Economic Challenges".

[zeusbheld]

agree that considering samak was elected, this is playing VERY poorly internationally. especially so well after the coup.

i don't understand why, if samak is indeed guity of buying votes, they can't go through the proper channels and cllect evidence, and convict him in court of doing so.

protests are one thing, but violently seizing public property goes beyond civil disobedience into... well... violence. respect for the railroad strike as strategies, go, though. THAT was brilliant.

[funky_house]

More or less what I was thinking. I don't pretend to understand what exactly is going on at the moment in Thailand. Do they want democracy? Or not?

But it does seem pretty clear that if this keeps going on, it is going to effect investor confidence, and the economy as a whole. Hardly a good time, what with the credit crunch, oil price surge, and everything else that is happening at the moment. A shame, seeing as Thailand seemed to be getting back on track after the coup.

[zeusbheld]

this is interesting.

[menospeakthai]

Interesting that apart from the farang, few Thais are willing to offer an opinion on the goings on. (And good on Bcool for hers.)

Thats because theyre all out rioting and looting.

Lots of brits and yanks moaning about sh*t, but don't see many of them marching on capital hill or downing street.

They'd rather just piss and moan I suppose.

You cant protest outside Downing Street or Parliament its illegal, Blair the democratically elected Prime Minister saw to that.

A good article - http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/oct/12/houseofcommons.comment

I wish i could make something as unbelievable as that up but my thought is to suppressed to do so.

[sunsnow]

PiAnt: actually I thought there is lots of anti war protestors in the USA. Protesting outside all kinds of places. No, havent seen any of them on the White House lawn. I wonder why...Does it tell more about Thailand or USA and fasisist supression hmmm

And I guess the biggest issue regarding PAD is: what they really want, how they explain the reasons they want it, would there be some other ways to achieve what they are wanting to achieve and could they do their civil disobedience in some other even more effective peaceful ways?

They have, as everyone here has said from beginning, all the right and as they think, moral obligation to protest. BUT there is protests that are effective done in with permisssions or with no permissions, so called disobedience ie. seizing property etc. BUT it goes back to: what they want, why, and what they want to do after they have gotten what they want.

[allseasonsman]

this is interesting.

Yes but I think it is well past the point of this truly being interesting, as the credibility of just about all Thai institutions is now in serious doubt, as are the whole series of legal allegations against MR T and MRs T.

It has now become impossible to trust any group within Thailand as the country is in now in political free fall [soon to be followed by economic] from which it might take years to recover [i do hope I am wrong about all this].

As was mentioned in the earlier post:

"The occupation of Government House and the siege of the Phuket and Krabi airports by the so-called People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) calls into question not only the viability of democracy in Thailand, but also the political neutrality of the court system, which has failed to enforce its own injunction against the actions of the PAD"

Thus after the coup of 2006 everything else is tainted as due process was ditched in the name of expediency. The price paid for this was only more polarization and division in Thailand.

It is rather like a criminal who is caught and while the book of evidence is being prepared and mounting, a hot head in the police department [through the urging of some faceless puppet masters] takes it upon himself to "fix things for good his way"

The problem all stems from the political opponents of MR T and the various behind the scenes vested interests who being just like MR T have fomented and agitated as much as possible in an intemperate and fanatical way, lowering the whole tone of political discourse to the point of creating such sharp division and hate filled invective that there is almost no way back. Political vacuums always end in a bad way.

People have been manipulated and stirred up on both sides of an absurd social division. Ordinary good people on both sides have been sucked into a vortex that leads to mindless mob rule.

Such social division is very damaging and hard to resolve because people are now acting on the basis of emotions rather than cold calculation. The cold calculation is done by the people behind the scenes on both sides. Like sharks they are all trying to further their own ends and interests, but as the saying goes: they are throwing out the baby with the bath water and killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

I feel bad for the Thai people who are being cheated out of a better future.

Patience,compromise,political maturity are hard even at the best of times but in their absence who knows how bad things may now get?

It is painful to see Thailand being rubbished and tarnished so much now in the international news. It is making the headlines for all the wrong reasons.

With Bangkok being such an important travel hub the ripple effects will fan out far beyond Thailand and do so much damage to Thailand's image and reputation. Once a shining example of progress and growing modernity is SE Asia one now wonders is the dream in tatters?

[allseasonsman]

Ev'rybody's talking about

Bagism, Shagism, Dragism, Madism,

Ragism, Tagism

Thaskin-ism, That-ism, Thisis-m, Samakis-m, is-m

All we are saying is give politics a chance,

All we are saying is give politics a chance

C'mon

Ev'rybody's talking about ministers,

Sinister, Banisters

And canisters, Bishops, Fishops,

Rabbis, and Pop eyes, Bye, bye, bye byes

All we are saying is give politics a chance,

All we are saying is give politics a chance

Let me tell you now

Revoluton, evolution, mastication,

Flagellation, regulation, integrations,

Meditations, United Nations,

Congratulations

= Peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87yq372R4Ts = Revolution?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s10t32X5wvI&feature=related = Strange Days

[Chatty]

Interesting that apart from the farang, few Thais are willing to offer an opinion on the goings on. (And good on Bcool for hers.)

Lots of brits and yanks moaning about sh*t, but don't see many of them marching on capital hill or downing street.

They'd rather just piss and moan I suppose.

cuz some Thai people who know right or wrong... they not waste time on the net. They just go and express themselves.

:wink:

Ok I will follow what I believe as well.

[bigKus]

Interesting that apart from the farang, few Thais are willing to offer an opinion on the goings on. (And good on Bcool for hers.)

Lots of brits and yanks moaning about sh*t, but don't see many of them marching on capital hill or downing street.

They'd rather just piss and moan I suppose.

Too sad, P' Ant. Is it time for them to pack their bags and for us to say good bye ??? :cry: sniff... sniff.. :cry:

[sunsnow]

I send kisses to Lady Thailand!!!

Make LOVE not WAR!!!

Metropolitan Electricity Authority (MEA) labour union wants among three things the military to take over the government. Isnt that sweet. Only in Thailand....

Tomorrow Bangkok is going to grind to the halt unless

a) Samak and the whole House or Reps resigns

Government cracks down on the protests

Only in Thailand people demand friggin' military to take over the country leadership after they did soooo good job in 2006-2007. Only in Thailand military is not under the control of the government but seems to be taking direct orders from PAD...Odd I say...

Sweet jesus...

``For the emergency decree to carry any weight, it has to be enforced,'' said Thitinan Pongsudhirak, director of the Institute for Strategic and International Studies at Chulalongkorn University in Bangkok. ``We're looking at an intense, do-or-die brinksmanship here.''

By continuing to occupy Government House against the law, the People's Alliance is ``baying for blood,'' he added.

[ahpuiahsan]

sad sad sad :cry: to see Thai ppl attacking their OWN ppl in the street. Does the Thai ppl wanna see all these? And if PAD succeeded and force the current PM to step down, and a quick election to elect a new PM to form a government mainly consitutes PAD members, does the anti-PAD ppl go on protest too? Sigh..it will go on forever. Who is gonna suffer in the end? Thai ppls themselves.

Why not set up a Muay Thai competition for the PAD leaders and Samak n gang to fight it out in the Ring. Winner takes all. :evil:

Ulitimately, i think the King will steps in...

[sunsnow]

aphuiahsan: sorry, PAD members cannot be elected to government. They do not have any political party. Oh and remember, dont mix King in this, he has nothing to do with Thai politics. He is above politics, remember that!

I think the muay thai idea is fun too, I suggested something similar earlier also.

add sarcastic grin

[i_love_som_tam]

Interesting that apart from the farang, few Thais are willing to offer an opinion on the goings on. (And good on Bcool for hers.)

Lots of brits and yanks moaning about sh*t, but don't see many of them marching on capital hill or downing street.

They'd rather just piss and moan I suppose.

uh... yeah... everyday there are demonstrations for a number of issues in front of the white house, the house of congress, the senate, the supreme court.... but these people get permits to do so.

BTW... Anybody in Thailand, besides me, having problems opening GMAIL, HOTMAIL or YAHOO mail tonight?

[Administrator]

haha,

sathorn...love the new profile photo.

[sunsnow]

"Pol Col Jongrak Chuthanon, deputy police commissioner-general, said Monday that he had ordered metropolitan police to carry only shields and refrain from carrying batons or any other arms when dealing with protesters.

Jongrak, who is acting metropolitan police chief, gave the order during a meeting of commanders of all units under the Metropolitan Police Bureau at its head office at 8:30 am Monday.

The Nation"

Now, keep that above command in line when you think why police late UAAD through, and also what UAAD tells they were planning to do in the quotes below:

The following reporter was right there when the shootings started and was reporting:

http://blogs.straitstimes.com/2008/9/2/clash-of-the-thai-tans

At about midnight I got a call from a photographer friend who was at Sanam Luang keeping an eye on the pro-government crowd. ''Come now, right now,' he said. ''They are marching up Rajadamnoen.''

The moment he said that I knew something bad was going to happen. Going up Rajadamnoen could only mean one thing - they were going to challenge the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD).

I got there a half hour later, and walked first through the PAD camp and lines. The mood in the PAD camp was serious and businesslike. All the men at the barrier wore helmets and carried baseball bats. Some had slingshots. Many had improvised new riot shields. They were waiting.

I soon came across the vanguard, approaching on the other side of a thin double line of police with only riot shields and no weapons.

Comment: do you think that unarmed police without proper gear of pepper sprays, batons and other non leathal weapons can do anything to really stop these two sides when anything they might do, would be turned to be "violence against protestors".

The pro-government crowd, many wearing red shirts and red headbands, marched quickly towards the Makkawan bridge and was met by a double row of police in full riot protection gear but without batons.

The police let the crowd through. Then they simply walked away, watching from a distance as the almost medieval battle erupted.

Some in the crowd, armed with two by fours and rods and slingshots, began to run towards the PAD's sparsely guarded outer perimeter. The PAD guards manning the perimeter ran and the crowd chased them, throwing aside metal barriers.

But as the few dozen young men in the vanguard of the pro-government crowd neared the PAD just after 1am, the close ranks of the PAD suddenly roared and came running out in a full charge, plowing into the pro-government crowd who were not only outnumbered but also ill-equipped to defend against the charge.

Simultaneously a volley of gunfire erupted from the PAD, and at least one pro-government protestor fell immediately, eyewitnesses from the pro-government group said. But Thai media reported that a PAD member had been killed.

Notice where reporter notes the gunfire started.

A pitched battle ensued where the two rival mobs met, with many at the rear of the pro-government crowd running helter skelter as they realised the PAD had the upper hand and heard the gunshots.

After an initial shot, more shots were heard at random intervals as the struggle surged back and forth for about two or three minutes.

The shots were clearly coming from the PAD ranks. Bullets zinged into the trees above me and another journalist from Bloomberg; we were the only foreign journalists there.

The pro-government crowd appeared stunned at being shot at by the PAD. 'We brought sticks and knives to a gunfight,' one man said. Several women sat on the sidewalk with their heads in their hands.

The PAD has advanced several metres and now massed in the street in a show of strength, facing down the pro-government crowd.

At 1.30am a second wave of a few dozen pro-government supporters armed with two by fours and swords and other assorted weapons appeared.

This time, the police intervened, forming a line across the road between the two warring sides. Police officers shouted at the crowds to stand down.

Again, no weapons, showing how scared government is in starting any sort of normal break down of riots as it would give ammo for PAD:

At around 2.45am over 100 soldiers arrived with riot control gear and no weapons. An army source confirmed on the phone that the army was not on alert, but four companies of riot control soldiers had been sent out. The men in camouflage fatigues and holding riot shields fell in to support the police at around 2.45am.

Last Tuesday the PAD - a coalition of royalists with significant backing from the capital's royalist-military-bureaucratic elite, and from wealthy business families, invaded a government TV station, shut down three airports in the south disrupting over 15,000 travellers for two days, and overran and occupied Government House.

IHT has this:

Samak is constrained in his responses by the role he played in ordering a massacre of student demonstrators in 1976. He has taken pains to say he would handle the protesters gently.

[zeusbheld]

this is interesting.

Yes but I think it is well past the point of this truly being interesting, as the credibility of just about all Thai institutions is now in serious doubt, as are the whole series of legal allegations against MR T and MRs T.

somehow, i doubt that allegations of fixing the elections are no longer interesting. i also doubt that the credibility of Samak, Toxin et al is any better than the credibility of Sondhi et al. claiming it is not interesting merely identifies you as someone who has chosen a side.

i suppose i have chosen a side too in that given Samak is elected according to rules that Sondhi et al agreed to, their disobedience should be a hell of a lot more civil regardless of the severity of the complaint. i am skeptical oif their claim to be operating purely in the national interest against corruption, and suspect it has more to do with wanting their share, or a personal/political vendetta.

[LakeGeneve]

this is interesting.

Yes but I think it is well past the point of this truly being interesting, as the credibility of just about all Thai institutions is now in serious doubt, as are the whole series of legal allegations against MR T and MRs T.

It has now become impossible to trust any group within Thailand as the country is in now in political free fall [soon to be followed by economic] from which it might take years to recover [i do hope I am wrong about all this].

Sorry but when was the period when Thai institutions were credible? The fundamental weakness of the political, civic & governance processes here , along with rule of law (ROL) is that the institutions are so weak and have been manipulated and politicised so much. The latter especially since 2001.

I'm not sure that the country is in "political free fall' as worse has occured in the past but as I suggested the other day, this current situation is I think about a much bigger struggle going on which will be ongoing for many, many years;

It is obvious that there are layers and layers to this that most of us will never really understand and ultimately it involves a power struggle going way beyond the next few years between 3 broad elite groupings (all with their own factions). A period in the future which few in thailand really wants to discuss or engage in openly....whatever instability there has been in the last 3 years will seem easy compared to the potential for instability at that time.

"Pol Col Jongrak Chuthanon, deputy police commissioner-general, said Monday that he had ordered metropolitan police to carry only shields and refrain from carrying batons or any other arms when dealing with protesters.

Jongrak, who is acting metropolitan police chief, gave the order during a meeting of commanders of all units under the Metropolitan Police Bureau at its head office at 8:30 am Monday.

The Nation"

Now, keep that above command in line when you think why police late UAAD through, and also what UAAD tells they were planning to do in the quotes below:

The following reporter was right there when the shootings started and was reporting:

http://blogs.straitstimes.com/2008/9/2/clash-of-the-thai-tans

At about midnight I got a call from a photographer friend who was at Sanam Luang keeping an eye on the pro-government crowd. ''Come now, right now,' he said. ''They are marching up Rajadamnoen.''

The moment he said that I knew something bad was going to happen. Going up Rajadamnoen could only mean one thing - they were going to challenge the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD).

I got there a half hour later, and walked first through the PAD camp and lines. The mood in the PAD camp was serious and businesslike. All the men at the barrier wore helmets and carried baseball bats. Some had slingshots. Many had improvised new riot shields. They were waiting.

I soon came across the vanguard, approaching on the other side of a thin double line of police with only riot shields and no weapons.

Comment: do you think that unarmed police without proper gear of pepper sprays, batons and other non leathal weapons can do anything to really stop these two sides when anything they might do, would be turned to be "violence against protestors". Answer: Yes they can, this is what they are trained to do.

The pro-government crowd, many wearing red shirts and red headbands, marched quickly towards the Makkawan bridge and was met by a double row of police in full riot protection gear but without batons.

The police let the crowd through. Then they simply walked away, watching from a distance as the almost medieval battle erupted.

Some in the crowd, armed with two by fours and rods and slingshots, began to run towards the PAD's sparsely guarded outer perimeter. The PAD guards manning the perimeter ran and the crowd chased them, throwing aside metal barriers.

But as the few dozen young men in the vanguard of the pro-government crowd neared the PAD just after 1am, the close ranks of the PAD suddenly roared and came running out in a full charge, plowing into the pro-government crowd who were not only outnumbered but also ill-equipped to defend against the charge.

Simultaneously a volley of gunfire erupted from the PAD, and at least one pro-government protestor fell immediately, eyewitnesses from the pro-government group said. But Thai media reported that a PAD member had been killed.

Notice where reporter notes the gunfire started. This is highly concerning and I hope that the PAD perpretrators are found and charged. However, on Al Jazerra they have been playing footage CLEARLY showing a govt supporter discharging a hand gun at PAD members (whether or not the shots were blanks or real one can only guess but people were ducking)

A pitched battle ensued where the two rival mobs met, with many at the rear of the pro-government crowd running helter skelter as they realised the PAD had the upper hand and heard the gunshots.

After an initial shot, more shots were heard at random intervals as the struggle surged back and forth for about two or three minutes.

The shots were clearly coming from the PAD ranks. Bullets zinged into the trees above me and another journalist from Bloomberg; we were the only foreign journalists there.

The pro-government crowd appeared stunned at being shot at by the PAD. 'We brought sticks and knives to a gunfight,' one man said. Several women sat on the sidewalk with their heads in their hands.

The PAD has advanced several metres and now massed in the street in a show of strength, facing down the pro-government crowd.

At 1.30am a second wave of a few dozen pro-government supporters armed with two by fours and swords and other assorted weapons appeared.

This time, the police intervened, forming a line across the road between the two warring sides. Police officers shouted at the crowds to stand down.

Again, no weapons, showing how scared government is in starting any sort of normal break down of riots as it would give ammo for PAD: Comment: police should generally not be issued with weapons for crowd control as the weapons can be misused by police or taken by rioters. However, in more violent situations auxillery and more specialised smalled police units should eb on stand by with appropiate tools to deal with violence of threats grievious threats against any person.

At around 2.45am over 100 soldiers arrived with riot control gear and no weapons. An army source confirmed on the phone that the army was not on alert, but four companies of riot control soldiers had been sent out. The men in camouflage fatigues and holding riot shields fell in to support the police at around 2.45am.

Last Tuesday the PAD - a coalition of royalists with significant backing from the capital's royalist-military-bureaucratic elite, and from wealthy business families, invaded a government TV station, shut down three airports in the south disrupting over 15,000 travellers for two days, and overran and occupied Government House.

IHT has this:

Samak is constrained in his responses by the role he played in ordering a massacre of student demonstrators in 1976. He has taken pains to say he would handle the protesters gently.

In response to this I would strongly suggest that Samak would love nothing more than to send in security forces boots and all into the PAD crowd and create lots of blood given his temperment and history. But he is restrained not by wishing to handle things gently of 1976 (he was excusing this in Jan remember and lying that only one person died) by the fact that the Head of State reportedly told him 10 days ago that there should be no violence against PAD members.

In response to the issue of riot police not having weapons (which one should also remember that a shield can be a weapon) - Sorry but three key issues here about crowd control policing in the context of protecting constitutionally recognised rights of both parties.

Firstly, the primary policy and operational objective of the police in such circumstances where you have two opposing groups and a propensity for violence is too ensure that the two groups do not come into close, physical proximity to each other. Full stop! Police are there to keep the peace and ensure that any opportunity for breaches of law are minimised. Threats against the person should always take priority over property based breaches of law but of course many times it is the reverse.

This absymal failure last night to keep the DAAD away from the PAD was so acute as to verge on intentional.

Secondly, the DAAD crowd has to come all the way from Sanam Luang to get to Rathdamnoen Nok rd before heading north along the road. They didn?t just suddenly appear out of nowhere and the police have their own intel people with the DAAD as they do with the PAD. With police being at Sanum Luang, the police had more than ample time (as the reporter did to get to the site once his friend called) to respond. Riot police contingents have been based on Thannon P?lok only on the NW side of PAD area. They could have walked backwards or crawled (going south along Th Ratchsima and then east along Krung Kasem) and still arrived to the area south of the Mahhkawan bridge well before the DAAD mob arrived in the area.

Third, leaving aside the obvious operational neglect in previous points, fundamentally riot policing operational tatics has the priority of using basic formations to control crowds and to secure designated zones. We forget that all police around the world used to do this without any of the police member apparatus (helmets, shields, batons, body armour etc) which we have come to associate with riot police (in fact in most crowd control situations in Thailand this is exactly what non-specialist police do).

However, the fact that you have a formed, specialist policing unit (ie. Riot police) means that they should have received a minimal standard of training, if not comprehensive, on the use of riot shields in crowd control formations. There is no need for police to be equipped with batons in 90% of crowd control situations and they invariably lead to misuse (as occurred on Friday). Thus, two lines of riot police (even "thin") should have been able to have kept the DAAD crowd at a specific point of Ratchdamnoen Nok rd. If you closely look at the footage of at least two channels of the time when the DAAD passes through a police line, the apparent resistance of the police can only be characterised as feeble (I think I said pathetic last night).

Now, having regard to operational priority one, once the DAAD went through the police line to such an extent that the police line could not longer be consider as such, the police should have rapidly withdrawn to a further site and created another line having one assumes already called for back up. Seemingly, it appears that this did not happen (but I cannot confirm). In fact the reporter says ?they just walked away?.

So police being police in Thailand perhaps one should not be surprised but the operational commander should have a lot of explaining to do in any investigation and or inquiry.

[LakeGeneve]

PS. I went down to PAD site this evening from about 6:30pm to 9pm. There were about 25K to 30K people in all and really quite a relaxed atmosphere with again many elderly and seemingly mainly women in attendence . Again almost a picnic style atmosphere. Also, any more students than my last visit on sat pm.

The whole inner govt house area was cleaner and more organised and the outer area had been consolidated with a few roads being reopened (such as Krung Kasem rd). Walking south along Ratchdamnoen Nok rd from Mahhkawan bridge you would barely know what had happened only some 15 hrs earlier.

Security was a little tighter with more bag checks as one end up having going through 3 different gates to get into govt house grounds but it was still fairly relaxed and efficient.

I don't personally agree with all the tactics and aims of the PAD though they are raising some important issues but the atmosphere at the site is organised, generally well discliplined and relaxed & fairly welcoming. Where to from here though one wonders?

[sunsnow]

LG: ah, good input. I was just doing the feeling based thing of riot police, thought that batons and some sort of non-leathal weapons are in their basic arsenal along with those cool water cannon cars. Thanks for explaining more on the tactics.

And as the Strait Times reporter also described and you told about tv broadcasts, it seemed as the police just let them through. So who is pulling these polices strings? Who is the police commander serving?

My own thoughts were, ok, Samak would want to be the top guy tellling that "let them thru, let the DAAD create havoc, lets see what happens" but on the other hand, as has been I guess agreed, Samak really cant take the risk of bloodshed or want the military step in because sure he is trying to figure out how much he actually has of the military support so that they wont pull a coup on HIM!

Hence, I was thinkin' that if it would be indeed Samaks favor in this case, putting aside his violent history in tha past, to NOT allow DAAD clash with PAD as that could be excuse for some military fractions to step in then...who would tell the commander of riot police to let in this way the protestors thru? (And is it possible that Thai police just IS so bad that they are not interested in doing their job? Is that any sort of an option? To quote from Traffic....Eduardo Ruiz: In Mexico, law enforcement is an entrepreneurial activity. )

And to even wonder that in my small little brain...I guess exemplifies not only how stupid I am hehe but also how much there is dirty laundry going in Thai politics.

Or as very nicely the Strait Times reported expressed "looks medieval" when he was describing the clash on Monday/Tuesday night...

Any thoughts? Is it in Samaks favor to let PAD and DAAD guys clash? What are the risks that it slashes back at him? Does he have anything to lose? He loses face in the foreign world but also in the millions of peoples who voted for PPP if he lets the protests go on, he loses face if he steps down in face of PPP and his voters. (And does he even care about what voters think!) A true limbo?!

[friendlyCat]

I must admit, that I just don't get "it."

I am not currently in Thailand.

How honest are any politicians, really?

Unfortunately history usually proves that "might makes right."

[zeusbheld]

Interesting that apart from the farang, few Thais are willing to offer an opinion on the goings on. (And good on Bcool for hers.)

Lots of brits and yanks moaning about sh*t, but don't see many of them marching on capital hill or downing street.

They'd rather just piss and moan I suppose.

cuz some Thai people who know right or wrong... they not waste time on the net. They just go and express themselves.

:wink:

Ok I will follow what I believe as well.

i find that people who "know" right from wrong... dont' spend enough time THINKING.

not directed at you, just a general comment. FYI George W Bush "knows" right from wrong.

[zeusbheld]

LG: ah, good input. I was just doing the feeling based thing of riot police, thought that batons and some sort of non-leathal weapons are in their basic arsenal along with those cool water cannon cars. Thanks for explaining more on the tactics.

And as the Strait Times reporter also described and you told about tv broadcasts, it seemed as the police just let them through. !

update: gf saw on thai tv an interview with a very credible journo. demonstrators from both sides. she thinks the violence was a pro-gov setup, because as soon as "state of emergency" the pro-toxin stick wielding thugs said they're all going home. they didn't have to think it over. looks like motocy taxi dude hired to smash kneecaps on a larger scale to her... and to me.

[zeusbheld]

I must admit, that I just don't get "it."

I am not currently in Thailand.

How honest are any politicians, really?

it's a question of degree, like the difference between bush sr and bush jr.

Unfortunately history usually proves that "might makes right."

the beauty of a strong constitution is that the might resides in the system rather than an individual. yes it's still brutal and ugly. but... you won't hear me say it very often but "God bless America." we got *something* right.