Stramash Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Being that Palestinians are Arabs, it would be difficult to call it genocide. Being that Tutsi's are Africans I'd find it hard to call their murder Geoncide as well?!?!? Genocide is generally used to describe the systematic murder of a race. Arabs aren't only in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. I don't think all is right there either. But you can't blame it only on the Israelis or the Israeli Gov't or the West even. There is more than enough blame to go around. sorry Dave mate, have to come riding in on my etymological white horse again; Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group Which is why I would use it to describe the persecutions of Jews, Pagans, Cathars, Pelagians, Sunnis by Shi'ites and vice versa, Tutsis etc etc etc This has actually been a very balanced debate if you read it through; no-one has disputed Israel's right to exist OR TO DEFEND ITSELF (within reason) nor has anyone came out and supported Hamas. In fact, the only extreme view was the poster who said the Palestinians were weak and deserved no mercy (???) Hamas are a hundred times worse than the PLO or even Fatah. At least with the PLO, thanks in no small part to Arafat being a sort of Arab Tito, there was a semblance of unity, and cease fires would often hold for many months at a time. But the extremism of Iran backed Hamas, coupled with the prevalent Zionism, sorry Nationalist Zionism, in the Israeli Government means you have 2 bunches of nutters with a lot of kids and women stuck in the middle getting shot or bombed. The reaction by Israel is over the top and far too heavy handed. I again point out the ease with which Mossad could eliminate most of Hmas with little or no collateral damage. But a point no-one has made is that there is a General Election in Israel in February - nothing like a few hundred dead Palestinians to get the right wingers voting in droves... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 marco non so Funny wrote the loss of unity and backwardness has brought them to their awful fate, and they should pay the price of it, without any pity or mercy from anyone. :shock: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beej Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 But a point no-one has made is that there is a General Election in Israel in February - nothing like a few hundred dead Palestinians to get the right wingers voting in droves... Wasn't it the war (out of control destruction of Lebanon for very little reason including the dropping of huge amounts of banned cluster bombs on the last hour before the cease fire) that lost the last election? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 But a point no-one has made is that there is a General Election in Israel in February - nothing like a few hundred dead Palestinians to get the right wingers voting in droves... Wasn't it the war (out of control destruction of Lebanon for very little reason including the dropping of huge amounts of banned cluster bombs on the last hour before the cease fire) that lost the last election? You may well be right. But there was plenty of (supposed) reason. The whole reason for the invasion of Lebanon was Israel and the US's concern over Syrian support for Hezbollah. Mossad then killed that Lebanese politician, blamed it on Syria and then went on to use all those lovely cluster bombs the US gave them to bomb the crap out of Lebanon. However, I think this situation is different; Hezbollah was relatively well equipped and inflicted plenty of casualties on Israel. Popular support for a war usually falls once the body bags pile up. I do not think that Hamas could mount anywhere near the same opposition so it would be great pre-election pr with the probability of few Isreali casualties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakseeda Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 They all need to get a life - chill out, aggression is no good for anyone There just disgusting animas killing and hurting people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beej Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Bloody hell, they really got stuck in didn't they..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801662.stm ..... and then watch this.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7804683.stm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 Bloody hell, they really got stuck in didn't they.....http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801662.stm ..... and then watch this.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7804683.stm Ouch!!! Yup - Real Madrid versus a very shoddy Sunday pub team... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beej Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 With that in mind, how many of you would still be patient or peaceful. Easy to sit on your perches and wax eloquent about peace and non-aggression when it ain't your a*s in the fire. Since when have the Israeli's ever been peaceful? You can't say the everyday people of Gaza can live normal lives with the restrictions that Israel imposes upon them. Its like someone shooting peas at you so you go and shoot his whole family with a shot gun, their responses are always way over the top and never measured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biachung Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 With that in mind, how many of you would still be patient or peaceful. Easy to sit on your perches and wax eloquent about peace and non-aggression when it ain't your a*s in the fire. Since when have the Israeli's ever been peaceful? You can't say the everyday people of Gaza can live normal lives with the restrictions that Israel imposes upon them. Its like someone shooting peas at you so you go and shoot his whole family with a shot gun, their responses are always way over the top and never measured. I read in the news paper yesterday (not that you should always believe what you read anyway) it said out of 6000 rockets fired into Israel only 10 people have died. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samy5000 Posted December 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Haganah militiamen expel Palestinian Arabs from Haifa, April 1948. (Agence France Presse) On July 11, 1948, Aharon Cohen, director of the Arab Affairs Department of the socialist-Zionist Mapam party in Israel, received a carbon copy of a military intelligence report. Israel, a state less than two months old, was embroiled in a war with neighboring Arab states that would last until 1949. The document in Cohen?s hands analyzed the reasons for the flight of 240,000 Palestinian Arabs from areas which had been allocated to the Jewish state by the November 1947 UN partition plan and another 150,000 from the Jerusalem region and areas allocated to the Arab state. Cohen was upset to read the report?s conclusion that 70 percent of these Arabs had fled due to ?direct, hostile Jewish operations against Arab settlements? by Zionist militias, or the ?effect of our hostile operations on nearby (Arab) settlements.?[1] One month before Cohen received this report, Mapam?s political committee had issued a resolution opposing ?the tendency to expel the Arabs from the Jewish state,? in response to Cohen?s warnings that such operations were taking place. Over the course of Arab-Jewish fighting between 1947 and 1949, well over 700,000 Palestinians were made refugees, the majority of them by direct expulsion or the fear of expulsion or massacre. The largest single expulsion occurred after Israeli conquest of the towns of Lydda and Ramla in the Jerusalem-Tel Aviv corridor during July 9-18, 1948. Some 50,000 Palestinians were driven out of their homes in these towns by Israeli forces whose deputy commander was Yitzhak Rabin, prime minister of Israel from 1974-1977 and 1992-1995. Some two dozen massacres of Palestinians were perpetrated by pre-state Zionist militias and Israeli forces, the most infamous of them on April 9-10, 1948, at the village of Deir Yassin. This Peoples are the habit ants of Gaza Strip today...so imagine the situation ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FLGlenn Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Can't we just all get along? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samy5000 Posted December 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Can't we just all get along? an innocent and impossible human dream. .. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
English_George Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 ...four pages of topical debate ...Ok. here's the deal. Somebody fronts the cash and we make the first 'Halal' gogo bar in Bangkok... .."The Gaza Strip" ...It will be a goldmine........all of the guys around Sukhumvit who have always wanted to experience what the area has to offer, but have been stuck due to religious constraints..... ..That way when their wives ask them where they have been they can truthfully say that they have been sharing a 'Hookah' in the 'Gaza Strip'... ...no backlash...just cash ...PM me, i've got the blueprints laid out ..79 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeeMarc Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Can't we just all get along? no. In the whole of human history this has never happened, and i doubt it ever will. Put 2 men in a place and eventually there will be competition. 3 or more men and you will have politics and leverage as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Can't we just all get along? no. In the whole of human history this has never happened, and i doubt it ever will. Put 2 men in a place and eventually there will be competition. 3 or more men and you will have politics and leverage as well. ...and 3 men and 1 woman then war is inevitable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeeMarc Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Can't we just all get along? no. In the whole of human history this has never happened, and i doubt it ever will. Put 2 men in a place and eventually there will be competition. 3 or more men and you will have politics and leverage as well. ...and 3 men and 1 woman then war is inevitable... boom boom! :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 With that in mind, how many of you would still be patient or peaceful. Easy to sit on your perches and wax eloquent about peace and non-aggression when it ain't your a*s in the fire. Since when have the Israeli's ever been peaceful? You can't say the everyday people of Gaza can live normal lives with the restrictions that Israel imposes upon them. Its like someone shooting peas at you so you go and shoot his whole family with a shot gun, their responses are always way over the top and never measured. Since when have the Arabs been peaceful. Israel is one small nation. To the rest of the Arab world, it's like someone shooting peas at you. You buy your house and the whole neighborhood attacks you for moving in and continues to attack for the next 50 to 60 years. And the rest of the world expects you to sit there and take it as if it is your fault. Beej you see it from one side only. You smoked a bit of dope in Gaza. Made a couple of friends in the Sinai and the Cairo Ghetto districts while you were a over indulged dope smoking tourist backpacking. I'm sure you dutifully wore your Che shirts as well. You blindly accepted the propaganda of some illiterate folks who are told what to think in a Mosque by a Mullah who spent the whole of his life memorizing the Qu'ran in a Madrassah. Not exactly the arbiters of justice, wisdom and mercy, those Mullahs. Not the ones whom I have heard. biachung, I've spent a bit of time having those rockets aimed in my direction. The Muslim soldiers may not have the best aim. But it only takes one to hit. I've probably been on the receiving end of about 100 rocket attacks. Those being aimed directly at my position. I'm still standing. Only 1 even hit within 50 feet of me. Does that mean that I should not be concerned about rocket attacks. Perhaps, instead of going to the bunkers, I should stand about in the open and be unconcerned. After all, I've not been hit yet. No danger. Right? That they can't aim now doesn't mean that they won't get lucky or learn to aim. Dead is dead. Maimed is maimed. I'll take the bunker. As I"m sure, do most Israelis. Hence the low casualty rate. You see. When the Israelis get attacked, they wish to live. So they run for cover. When the Palestinians get attacked, it is in the best interest of HAMAS, FATAH and the PLA/PLO to have a high death rate. Therefore, they discourage folks from running to cover. They tell their children that it is glorious to die a shaheed (martyr) and force them out into the open. HAMAS and the other thugs shoot their AK47s at IDF soldiers and then use women and children as cover and concealment. In the high hopes that IDF forces kills a few civilians. The more the better. But we won't talk about that...kills the Israel as evil argument when those whom Israel fights make Hitler and Stalin look like angels. HAMAS, FATAH, Hezbollah, etc are the villains here. It's just too bad that so many can't figure that out. Especially, it's too bad that the Lebanese and Palestinians can't figure this out. Dave mate, you are as bad as Beej sometimes. It's like being at an impro-jazz night on acid; the same old blaring tune going on and on and on and on... I haven't seen ONE post defend Hamas, Hezbollah or even Fatah (possibly the least violent of the 3 and the only one, a fact you did not mention, that recognises Israel's right to exist - something else that has not been disputed in the debate) But irrespective of how much of scumbags Hamas and Hezbollah are, it does not alter the fact that Israel go in too heavy handed; it's like they want to rewrite their own Hebrew legend of David and Goliath but with Goliath winning this time. (and I am just talking about Israel vs Palestine here NOT the whole Arab world) You just exchange the same old diatribe witrh Chris everytime; so just for once, without going into rights and wrongs of the as**ole Mullahs or the as**ole Zionists, sorry Nationalist Zionists who only want death for their enemies, answer the point I have made at least twice. Would you agree that, having one of the most skilled intelligence services in the world in Mossad; a service that has ALWAYS managed to infiltrate their enemies or to cultivate informers; that it would be a relatively easy task to carry out covert operations, and in particular wet work, against all of the Hamas leadership and most radical elements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 ...four pages of topical debate...Ok. here's the deal. Somebody fronts the cash and we make the first 'Halal' gogo bar in Bangkok... .."The Gaza Strip" ...It will be a goldmine........all of the guys around Sukhumvit who have always wanted to experience what the area has to offer, but have been stuck due to religious constraints..... ..That way when their wives ask them where they have been they can truthfully say that they have been sharing a 'Hookah' in the 'Gaza Strip'... ...no backlash...just cash ...PM me, i've got the blueprints laid out ..79 ALthough I do think they could use it , I don't think a bar where women strip is a good idea in a Muslim area. Now Hookahs should be on every street corner in the Israel Palestine area. Small fast food business would flourish and some love might have a chance. Too much hate festering in that area for way too long..... :twisted: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 And oftentimes, you kill bad guy number one and bad guy number two or three or ten or two hundred steps up and is simply a greater monstrosity than the guy you just killed.What to do then...? HAPPY NEW YEAR ANYWAY YOU GENERALISING ARGUMENTATIVE BAS**RD!!! you and Beej are 2 sides of the same coin; you accuse him of being blinkered and generalising, yet you often do the same. 'you guys' 'the left' etc etc I consider myself a socialist but a realist socialist; if you took the best points of socialism and moulded them with the bits of capitalism that work then you would have a perfect system, but that aint gonna happen anytime soon... So what is wrong with my socialist principles being used to support worthy causes that are real? Or to oppose humam rights violations? I would 100% support wet work against leaders of terrorist networks; remember, one of your guys had Osama in his sights long before 9/11 and his superiors bottled it; and if Saddamn had been taken out, his idiot sons would not have lasted long either; yes, there would have been civil war, and perhaps even some form of partition within Iraq, but a lot less body bags would have been needed over the years. And your argument of 'new bad guys' filling the shoes of old ones is weak at best; you take out the leadership, the networks and the financing (and let's face it, most of yesterday's 'super hackers' now work for Governemnt agencies) and it would take them years to recover. But by Israels actions they are actually speeding up the recruiting process; it is easier for the mullahs to reel you in when your family have all been kille dby indiscriminate Israeli attacks. I guarantee you that the first half of 2009 will see an escalation in suicide attacks against Israeli targets, which will give the right wingers in the Knesset more justification for further oppression and attacks... and the wheel goes on turning... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Wad Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 how legit is the country Israel ?? Just because they think their "god" promissed them their land, they think they can force all natures of the universe??sorry, I am not anti-jewish, not anti-arab, but I know something is wrong here!!! Can't argue with you there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 how legit is the country Israel ?? Just because they think their "god" promissed them their land, they think they can force all natures of the universe??sorry, I am not anti-jewish, not anti-arab, but I know something is wrong here!!! Can't argue with you there There is no point in revisiting this part of the argument; whatever you believe about the original right of Isreal to exist, it does and nothing is going to change that. The only way forward is for the Arab nations to recognise their right to exist; that will be the first real and tangible step on the road to some type of long term solution!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 how legit is the country Israel ?? Just because they think their "god" promissed them their land, they think they can force all natures of the universe??sorry, I am not anti-jewish, not anti-arab, but I know something is wrong here!!! Can't argue with you there There is no point in revisiting this part of the argument; whatever you believe about the original right of Isreal to exist, it does and nothing is going to change that. The only way forward is for the Arab nations to recognise their right to exist; that will be the first real and tangible step on the road to some type of long term solution!! Thats one of the problems. It keeps going back to the old arguments that started the whole thing. WIth its history of taking land from the person who toke the land from someone who toke the land its not going to be easy to stop the fighting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
English_George Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Thats one of the problems. It keeps going back to the old arguments that started the whole thing. WIth its history of taking land from the person who toke the land from someone who toke the land its not going to be easy to stop the fighting. ..That's it...there you have it.... ...the forum topic has echoed the whole problem.....acutely pointed out by Eagle.... ...it keeps going round and round with the same old argument!! ...I'm cooking fish pie tonight....and its looking good!! ..79 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stramash Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Thats one of the problems. It keeps going back to the old arguments that started the whole thing. WIth its history of taking land from the person who toke the land from someone who toke the land its not going to be easy to stop the fighting. ..That's it...there you have it.... ...the forum topic has echoed the whole problem.....acutely pointed out by Eagle.... ...it keeps going round and round with the same old argument!! ...I'm cooking fish pie tonight....and its looking good!! ..79 hope you've added boiled eggs!!!! Got my first drink of evening poured, my records sorted for later, my susvival kit (bourbon) in a bag and am ready to rock'n' roll... Just waiting for the troops to arrive, then the madness officially begins!!! :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
English_George Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 ..have a good one, tonight! ..and remember...you're not a real DJ until you can scratch ..79 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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