Are you a Christian?

[zeusbheld]

there are some easy ways of reconciling religion and science--for instance, the funamentalist christian could say "God made the universe in 7 days to look exactly as your 'science' says it did, and who are we to question the ways of God? or as a jesuit once put it to me--"'metaphysics' means outside of phyics. " he was a pro-science christian, who had no problem with the theory of evolution by the way.

Another way for Christians to reconcile their religious beliefs with science is Theisitic Evolution, which basically claims that God uses evolution to create the life. I like this one because if God is really as smart as everyone says he is then surely he'd avoid the messy hands-on approach and would simply set up the right conditions and natural laws to accomplish his work. If I was a Christian I'd be all for it.

YES! doesn't it make sense that an omniscient God would be at least as smart at managing people as the average 21st century MBA???

[zeusbheld]

I didn't state that any of the aforementioned early forms of Man are the 'missing link'. I was merely illustrating the fact that there is in fact a hefty amount of evidence to support the theory of evolution, thus lending weight to your argument.

Yes lots of juicy evidence. Over the past 20 years researchers in one valley in Africa have dug up over 200 humanoid skeletons spanning the continuous development of homo sapiens from small primates that lived many millions of years ago. This valley (I should look up the name, but I have it at home) is particularly useful for constructing a potential history of species because the sediments make it very easy to date the discoveries.

the great rift valley?

The evidence for human evolution is way way beyond Neanderthals and Lucy these days. Also there have been thousands of other fossils recovered from the same area providing evidence for the evolution all sorts of modern plants and animals. Very compelling stuff, and even more so if I can dig up a reference for you guys. :wink:

some interesting fossils, and spectacular finds (like Turkana boy). and also quite a bit of evidence that the evolution of humans--as well as the evolution of just about anything--didn't progress in a straight line, and looks more like a bush with lots of dead ends. a lot of the hominids we know of are not our ancestors but appear to have evolved in parallel (neanderthals) or dead ends (australopithecus robustus).

interestingly we humans (homo sapiens) are the last surviving hominids (hominids are our own little group, after we branched off from common ancestors with apes, chimps and orangs). do keep in mind that this doesn't mean that we're an "improvement" just that we were luckier and / or better suited to the environment we were in at the time.

[jdv]

Someone above mentioned there being "convincing" arguments for creationism

There have been many a convincing argument for Creationism. I'd challenge you to make the author of any of them look like morons.

1) An argument is not a book. Providing Author names is not providing an argument.

2) A challenge: Post any argument (presumably you know them well enough to write them here) for creationism here and I will then tell you why it is invalid.

Remember, an argument is a set of propositions (premises) that lead to a conclusion.. such as

1. All men are mortal

2. Socrates is a man

C. Socrates is mortal.

This is a deductively valid and sound (if socrates is alive) argument.

Remember that to attempt to shift the onus of proof onto evolutionists is a logical fallacy. Creationists are making the claim here - it's not up to evolutionists to prove a negative.

It's also a fallacy to attempt to claim that there are only two possible solutions to this debate - i.e. either creationism OR evolution. Therefore, if evolution is wrong, it does not mean creationism is right.

It is also a logical fallacy to think that just finding one or two problems with evolution as we currently understand it helps to defeat the entire theory. That's known as the fallacy of achilles' heel.

Ok.. looking forward to seeing some of these convincing arguments. If you tell me to "read the book" I will of course roll my eyes (just fair warning..!).

[zeusbheld]

JDV: lucid and well-said.

BRAVO.

please, willya post a sequel and explain inductive reasoning, so that those who would "refute" the theory of evolution can have a clue as to the groundrules?

[farang_subson]

The leap from "dead" chemicals to the first replicator is not "evolution", per se. It's "abiogenesis". It's not just semantics...it means you might be able to say that God set up the initial conditions for life, and still have no particular hangup with Darwinian evolution.

******

Danniken and those guys don't have much to do with science. They don't publish peer-reviewed literature....and that's how modern science is done.

[Deester]

Deep conversations.I need a dictionary for zeus comments, but still don't really understand.Can anyone help?

[CiaranM]

Deep conversations.I need a dictionary for zeus comments, but still don't really understand.Can anyone help?

beer .... lots of beer !!

[Neo]

Over the past 20 years researchers in one valley in Africa have dug up over 200 humanoid skeletons spanning the continuous development of homo sapiens from small primates that lived many millions of years ago. This valley (I should look up the name, but I have it at home) is particularly useful for constructing a potential history of species because the sediments make it very easy to date the discoveries.

the great rift valley?

Finally bothered to look it up, it's the Afar Basin of Ethiopia which is technically part of the Great Rift Valley, south of the Red Sea.

The article was Human Evolution: The Evidence by Tim D White and it appears in a book called Intelligent Thought. "we have recovered 227 hominid individuals", "not even Darwin could have imagined that a single geological depression ... would have yielded a record of human evolution stretching across the last 6 million years." And if you google him you may find some laughably inept attempts at debunking his findings.

[impossible_me]

i do believe what had things you done you would get them . :shock:

[zeusbheld]

Deep conversations.I need a dictionary for zeus comments, but still don't really understand.Can anyone help?

beer .... lots of beer !!

coffee., crack cocaine and lots of books.

[zeusbheld]

Over the past 20 years researchers in one valley in Africa have dug up over 200 humanoid skeletons spanning the continuous development of homo sapiens from small primates that lived many millions of years ago. This valley (I should look up the name, but I have it at home) is particularly useful for constructing a potential history of species because the sediments make it very easy to date the discoveries.

the great rift valley?

Finally bothered to look it up, it's the Afar Basin of Ethiopia which is technically part of the Great Rift Valley, south of the Red Sea.

The article was Human Evolution: The Evidence by Tim D White and it appears in a book called Intelligent Thought. "we have recovered 227 hominid individuals", "not even Darwin could have imagined that a single geological depression ... would have yielded a record of human evolution stretching across the last 6 million years." And if you google him you may find some laughably inept attempts at debunking his findings.

i have that book actually.

full title for those interested in basing their opinion on evolution on something more substantial than a random, uninformed walk through a natural history museum or some creationist crackpot's propaganda:

intelligent thought: science vs. the intelligent design movement. edited by john brockman.

[jdv]

please, willya post a sequel and explain inductive reasoning, so that those who would "refute" the theory of evolution can have a clue as to the groundrules?

Somehow, I think it would be a waste of time..! Cheers though.

[RocketPub]

nothing nothing forever..only you name feeding..on..on..T

[babyoiy]

No, I'm not and I'm about to converting to be Jewish..

:wink:

[zeusbheld]

please, willya post a sequel and explain inductive reasoning, so that those who would "refute" the theory of evolution can have a clue as to the groundrules?

Somehow, I think it would be a waste of time..! Cheers though.

where's your faith in the TF stink tank???

grate minds up in here i tell you, grate minds.

[archer]

How much death caused by religion?

Down with religion

[MikeAussieGuy]

How much death caused by religion?

Down with religion

how much death has been caused by sex...

Down with Sex

(runs for cover)

he he he well said.

[zeusbheld]

How much death caused by religion?

Down with religion

interesting theory but good luck implementing it, yeah thanks.

ps how much death caused by 'natural causes'?

DOWN WITH NATURAL CAUSES!

[i_love_som_tam]

How much death caused by religion?

Down with religion

how many deaths are caused by alcohol?

down with alcohol. i can't believe i said that :roll:

[ttesta]

:wink:

[ttesta]

One night a person had a dream.

They dreamed they were walking along the beach with the great spirit?

Across the sky flashed scenes from their life.

For each scene, they noticed two sets of footprints in the sand:

one belonging to them, and the other to the great spirit.

When the last scene of their life flashed before them,

they looked back, at the footprints in the sand.

They noticed that so many times along the path of their life

there was only one set of footprints.

They also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times of their life

This really bothered them and they questioned the great spirit about it:

"Great Spirit, you said that once I decided to follow you,

you'd walk with me all the way.

But I have noticed that, during the most troublesome times in my life

there is only one set of footprints.

I don't understand, why, when I needed you most ,

.... you would leave me?"

The Great spirit spoke softly and replied:

"My child, My precious little one, I love you and I would never leave you,

During your times of trial and suffering,

when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you."

and

[ttesta]

[iF]

If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you

But make allowance for their doubting too,

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,

Or being hated, don't give way to hating,

And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,

If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

And treat those two impostors just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken

Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,

And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings

And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

And never breath a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

To serve your turn long after they are gone,

And so hold on when there is nothing in you

Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;

If all men count with you, but none too much,

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,

And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

--Rudyard Kipling

[steevolution]

was pondering over the ponderous back an forth on religion and came across this pearl:

cal state chico? is that a community college? it's certainly not one of the top schools in california's state university system,

Cal State Chico? Cal State Chico?!?! i'll have you know that in my day, the Cal State Chico student bodies were seven women for every three men (seven generally "academically challenged" women. it's not UC Berkeley for Chrissake). this made the parties worth driving a good portion of the length of californicateya to get to. cuz there's not much more to do in Chico than get drunk an f**k. course, that was in my dissolute youth :-p :-p :-p

[zeusbheld]

was pondering over the ponderous back an forth on religion and came across this pearl:

cal state chico? is that a community college? it's certainly not one of the top schools in california's state university system,

Cal State Chico? Cal State Chico?!?! i'll have you know that in my day, the Cal State Chico student bodies were seven women for every three men (seven generally "academically challenged" women. it's not UC Berkeley for Chrissake). this made the parties worth driving a good portion of the length of californicateya to get to. cuz there's not much more to do in Chico than get drunk an f**k. course, that was in my dissolute youth :-p :-p :-p

i hereby revise my opinion of cal state-chico, elevating it to near-chapel-hill status. all it needs is a basketball team for when you're too hung over to drink, then it's shoulder to shoulder.

[yeahrightdennis]

Christ died for sins, once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.

I rest on the fact that the same Hand and that created the universe, that controls the events in my life and yours, your day and mine, is the same Hand pierced to pay for my sins and the sins of those who come to Him for mercy...

Trust the One who justifies the ungodly,

Who exists whether or not we acknowledge Him as God,

Who hates sin, and loves us, whether we want Him to or not,

And hates and rightfully punishes sin, including those of the heart-- pride, hate, lust, selfishness, etc -- of which none of us have been without-- as all of us have fallen short and deserve hell;

Yet, this One who justifies the ungodly has punished His sinless Son as a substitute, my substitute; paid the debt I owed because of sin and rose from the dead... to bring this forgiveness and new life to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ...