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cs3602001

Jewish RIGHT to the Land of Jerusalem

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Most recently I have been looking into this subject, something which I do not claim to know much about.

However I find the palestinions use of terroroism shameful, I recently foudn the following article and enjoyed the perspective taken by Prof. Khaleel Mohammed:

I am interested to hear what people think on this one.

The Quran confirms Jewish right to the Land and to Jerusalem

Extract from Frontpage Interview's with Prof. Khaleel Mohammed, Assistant Professor  at the Department of Religious Studies at San Diego State University .

The Quran in Chapter 5: 20-21 states quite clearly: "Moses said to his people: 'O my  people!  Remember the bounty of  God upon you  when  He bestowed  prophets upon  you , and  made  you  kings and gave you that which  had not been given to  anyone before  you amongst  the nations. O my people!  Enter the Holy Land which God has written for  you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers.'"

The thrust of my analysis is where Moses says that the Holy Land is that which God has  "written" for the Israelites. In both Jewish and Islamic understandings of the term "written",  there is the meaning of finality, decisiveness and immutability. And so we have the Written  Torah (unchangeable) and the Oral Torah (which represents change to suit times). And in  the Quran we have "Written upon you is the fast"- to show that this is something that is  decreed, and which none can change.  So the simple fact is then, from a faith-based point  of view: If God has "written" Israel for the people of Moses, who can change this?

When the Muslims entered that land in the seventh century, they were well aware of its  rightful owners, and when they failed to act according to divine mandate (at least as  perceived by followers of all Abrahamic faiths), they aided and abetted in a crime. And the  present situation shows the fruits of that action wherein innocent Palestinians and Israelis  are being killed on a daily basis.

I also draw your attention to the fact that the medieval exegetes of Quran--without any  exception known to me--recognized Israel as belonging to the Jews, their birthright given to  them. Indeed, two of Islam's most famous exegetes explained "written" from Quran 5:21   thus:

Ibn Kathir (d. 774/1373) said: ?That which God has written for you? i.e. That which God  has promised to you by the words of your father Israel that it is the inheritance of those  among you who believe? . Muhammad al-Shawkani (d. 1250/1834) interprets Kataba to  mean ?that which God has allotted and predestined for you in His primordial knowledge,  deeming it as a place of residence for you? (1992, 2:41 ).

The idea that Israel does not belong to the Jews is a modern one, probably based on the  Mideast rejection of European colonialism etc, but certainly not having anything to do with  the Quran.  The unfortunate fact is that most Muslims do NOT read the Quran and  interpret it on the basis of its own words; rather they let imams and preachers do that for  them.

How did the Jews lose their right to live in the Holy Land ? All reliable reports show that it  was by the looting and burning that followed from 70-135 C.E.  When the  Muslims  entered  the  place in  638, liberating it from the Byzantines,  they  knew full  well to whom  it rightfully belonged.  The later Muslim occupation and building a mosque on the site of  the Temple was something that was not sanctioned by The Qur?an. How honest is  contemporary Islam with this? Given the situation in the Middle East , politiking etc stands  in the way of honesty.

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If you think that anyone in the Middle East, or in the Islamic or Jewish worldwide communities, thinks the best solution to the question of the Holy Land would be to establish a Christian state on a European model, you're dreaming.

Absolutely no one, not just terrorists, will accept that.

To the Muslims, that would be a replay of the Crusades.

To the Jews, it would be a continuation of centuries of subjugation and oppression by Christians.

It may not appear that way to you, but that's how it will appear to them.

So it won't work.

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only a suggestion, but you think it wont work, so it will be just as good a solution as the present one then.

...uh, no. That would then make it a dispute between at least three parties, instead of two, and so more complicated and harder to solve.

and Christians have just as much of a right to palestine as the other two in regards to its holy significance.

Christians have just as much right to worship there. They have no claim to the land. If they do, why haven't any Christian-dominated nations staked their claim?

However, if any white European Christians out there support Andy's idea that a white European Christian state be set up where the present Israel/Palestine is now, speak up now and support him.

And don't stop with words. Lobby your governments to be the lucky nation to set it up. Better yet, enlist in the military, or form your own mercenary force and go down there and set up your white European Christian state that will solve all the problems in the Holy Land. Go for it, man. Show those people down there a thing or two about how to run things right.

BTW, the crusades that the moslems still feel so sore about would never have happenned if the moslems had not gone on their own crusades in the first place and taken the holy land from Christians.

.... who took it from the Romans, who took it from the Jews, who took it from the Philistines who took it from ... yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's all irrelevant. The bitterness is there. Setting up a white European Christian state will only inflame the region even further and possibly start the worst wave of terrorism the world will ever have seen and most likely the Third World War.

But, your solution is just as good.

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Can anyone find something more controversial. This old batlle thats 1000s of years old might cause some infighting here amongst us. I hold with the Native Americans that no one owns the land but merely keep it for awhile but while we have it its ours. So may the bigger bomb win, cause no one is giving no one sh*t

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Well that really is it, isn't it now, Eagle?

I mean, it is useful on some level to note that even some Muslim scholars acknowledge a biblica/Quranic/historical claim to the land on the part of the Jews.

But for most of the people living there now, that's not the crux of the argument.

They have real grievances about the last few decades and their lives right now.

Forget the historical stuff.

A fair and equitable solution that satisfies all parties to best degree possible has to be found, agreed upon and implemented with sincerity.

It seems, however, we are at long last seeing just a faint glimmer of light at the end of this long dark tunnel with the recent actions taken by Mrs. Abbas and even Sharon to some degree.

Let's hope, anyway.

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blah blah blah blah blah!!!!!!

i read here that someone (could have been andy) said that christians have greatest claim to this land

christians means follower of jesus christ, yes? means since 01AD, yes? so who had claim to this land before that???? i think mankind have lived there before 01AD

just my 2cents worth 8) :lol: :shock:

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There might one day be a peaceful solution, but with all the Jewish settlements in Palestinian areas it wil be a long time coming I'm afraid unless Jesus comes back holding hands with Mohamad. What the bible says or the Koran says doesn't mean anything in the course of things unless its respected by both sides. And of course Men wrote them anyway not God so there is no confirmation from the lord as to whos is whos. I'm really surprised at this educated literate bunch ( yes i am refering to TFs) refering to old passages of literature saying someone holds title to the land like it means anything to anyone except maybe at one side's rallying of there troops to go to batlle.

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I basically agree.

I wasn't looking for an answer in scripture, but if there is an answer to this in scripture, then it's in some of the principles put forth. I don't think we can look at those texts as title deeds.

And yes, the settlements will have to go, but there are other issues both sides need to work out also.

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I think we will be watching the Jews and Palistniains on there own debate channel soon with Donald trump as moderator. I think a nice series of casinos that both nations could join in fun and drinks might be a good start to getting along. They could celibrate and cry of there losses over money rather then bodies.

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If there is a will there is a way.

And I don't think the jews are moving anytime soon. Besides their will, they've got atleast 200 nuclear missiles and I do believe they'd use them rather than give up the land.

Wonder how they'd get the oil if it becomes a wasteland.

Fun stuff to think about ain't it?

:)

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I think you should clarify what you've posted, farangbkk.

First, don't talk about "the jews." Talk about the state of Israel. There are many millions of Jews in Israel and around the world, and they don't all have the same ideas or agree with the policies of the government of the state of Israel. Just like all Americans don't like to be identified with Bush, all Jews don't like to be identified with Ariel Sharon.

When you say "the jews" are ready to use 200 nuclear missiles rather than give up the land, what land exactly do you mean? The West Bank and its settlements?

They eventually will give up the West Bank, and they can't defend the settlements with nuclear weapons.

Israel itself? Which nation is going to send its army to attack Israel at this point? Israel appears to be able to defend its borders against other nations' militaries with conventional forces.

The only scenario in which I see Israel using a nuclear weapon, that is any way likely, is if a terrorist group were to smuggle a nuclear device into Israel and detonate it.

If the group has links to another country, like Hezbollah does to Iran, then yes, I think Iran would be in danger of a nuclear retaliation from Israel.

Otherwise, I can't see any scenario that is at all likely in which Israel would use nuclear weapons.

Furthermore, it has never been proven that Israel has anything like 200 nuclear missiles. They almost certainly have nuclear capabilities and weapons, but no hard evidence on exactly what they have is available. You have informers making certain claims, but we had informers making claims about Iraq's WMD also.

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Yes, I made the mistake of saying jews when my post read the State of Israel.

Much like how I am ashamed of the current American government that certainly doesn't represent the way all american's think.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Lobert, let's be reasonable. There is no comparison with Iraq's WMD informants and those on the Israel nuclear weapons system.

There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Israel has them. It's the actual number and kind of rockets that's in doubt. They've had nuclear weapon capabilities since the 1960's. There's no doubt whatsoever of the reactor, the plutonium, or the heavy water that was sold to them. 200 warheads is a reasonable estimate of their stockpile. Numbers of 100 is cited as well as numbers as high as 400 (which is easily feasible but I do think this is a bit high). There is no doubt they have them, it's just the number, whereas in Iraq, there was considerable doubt they even had WMD.

Let me clarify, "I do believe they'd use them rather than give up the land." I mean giving up the State of Israel itself. I think most everyone believes that something will have to be given up for peace (as you noted with the West Bank).

As for a scenario where the missiles would be used.... A conventional war that Israel is losing with the US bogged down in other parts of the world.

:(

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Let me clarify, "I do believe they'd use them rather than give up the land." I mean giving up the State of Israel itself. I think most everyone believes that something will have to be given up for peace (as you noted with the West Bank).

:(

Agreed with it...

In my opinion, people in Israel really worked hard to establish the country and sacrificed a lot...

Recall from my friend's speech " We won the war, because we had nowhere to go. One side surrounded by enemies, other side nothing but ocean. So we had no option but Die or win. That's why we fought until our last drop of blood with no fear"

I do have great respect towards Israelis and Jews, though not for Sharon... (always opposed Sharon though)

But I kinda think that, this conflict will never gonna end... unless someone blows up the holyland or something...

Moreover, I kinda start losing my patience with Palestinian leaders (not the entire society to mind u)... Sometimes naughty kid has to get smacked...

halomi u do talk a load of **** .. israel, us, britain, russia, everybody knew they would win the war, except for some arab leaders, and even most of them knew it, because their armed forces were vastly superior to ALL of the arab armies combined. yes israel did work hard to establish the country, but by that time it wasn't their country. and they sacraficed a lot, usually palestinian civilans.

israel was formed from approx. 78% of what had been the palestinian consulate, but even that was not enough. they are trying to annexe the west bank and jerusalem and it's surrounding areas and have NO intentions of giving these up. in fact bush has more or less said they will be allowed to keep these terroritories (nice of him to give away something which isn't his) in direct contradiction of international law and numerous UN resolutions.

sometimes naughy kids need smacked and sometimes dumbass kids need smacked also ..

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...I don't think, it's his hair...I don't even think it's hair at all...but I have to agree it must be the result of years of extensive research...

other note: the area of the mediterranian including N. afrika, middle east, asia minor belonged to the roman empire, which ultimately become the holy roman empire (marking the official collapse of the roman empire) when constantinus declared christianity as the official religion in 300something AD. I don't beleive the Italians are still interested...by the way, the muslims invaded all the mentioned areas in the next few hundred years, including sicily, spain and part of france, (beaten out by charlemagne and el cid, subsequently triggering the crusades to RE-TAKE the holy land, notwhitstanding the fact that it remained continously in muslim hands till 1967, except for a 50some year period) not to mention byzantinum-constantinople-istanbul, the later capitol of the ottoman empire, ending in the early 20th century, when the brits carved out the present borders of beduin and other tribal arab lands, i.e.: iraq, saudi, kuwait, etc...

just my 2 cents....uuhhh...satang

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Let me clarify, "I do believe they'd use them rather than give up the land." I mean giving up the State of Israel itself. I think most everyone believes that something will have to be given up for peace (as you noted with the West Bank).

:(

Agreed with it...

In my opinion, people in Israel really worked hard to establish the country and sacrificed a lot...

Recall from my friend's speech " We won the war, because we had nowhere to go. One side surrounded by enemies, other side nothing but ocean. So we had no option but Die or win. That's why we fought until our last drop of blood with no fear"

I do have great respect towards Israelis and Jews, though not for Sharon... (always opposed Sharon though)

But I kinda think that, this conflict will never gonna end... unless someone blows up the holyland or something...

Moreover, I kinda start losing my patience with Palestinian leaders (not the entire society to mind u)... Sometimes naughty kid has to get smacked...

halomi u do talk a load of sh*t .. israel, us, britain, russia, everybody knew they would win the war, except for some arab leaders, and even most of them knew it, because their armed forces were vastly superior to ALL of the arab armies combined. yes israel did work hard to establish the country, but by that time it wasn't their country. and they sacraficed a lot, usually palestinian civilans.

israel was formed from approx. 78% of what had been the palestinian consulate, but even that was not enough. they are trying to annexe the west bank and jerusalem and it's surrounding areas and have NO intentions of giving these up. in fact bush has more or less said they will be allowed to keep these terroritories (nice of him to give away something which isn't his) in direct contradiction of international law and numerous UN resolutions.

sometimes naughy kids need smacked and sometimes dumbass kids need smacked also ..

Ciaran, you give a very slanted and not altogether accurate accounting of the history and population of that area. You are of course perfectly entitled to your bias in favour of the plight of the Palestinian people. Out of the recorded history of the region(info from 4000 BC or so), and particulary what is now Israel, the peoples who would now be called Palestinians have had control of Israel/Palestine/Canaan/Judea/Marmeluke and Ottoman empire states etc. for a very short period of time. They are also made up of peoples from all over the region, including north Africa, Turkey, all over the former Roman Empire and peoples annexed from neighboring Arab countries. Jewish peoples have lived continuously in the area since the beginnings of Judaism (ie evolved out of Cannan 5800 odd years ago). Population dwindled massively under the Crusades and during other conflicts, but to take the stance that Jews unlawfully invaded a long standing Palestinian nation is to simplify the matter to the point of ridiculousness.

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halomi u do talk a load of sh*t .. israel, us, britain, russia, everybody knew they would win the war, except for some arab leaders, and even most of them knew it, because their armed forces were vastly superior to ALL of the arab armies combined. yes israel did work hard to establish the country, but by that time it wasn't their country. and they sacraficed a lot, usually palestinian civilans.

israel was formed from approx. 78% of what had been the palestinian consulate, but even that was not enough. they are trying to annexe the west bank and jerusalem and it's surrounding areas and have NO intentions of giving these up. in fact bush has more or less said they will be allowed to keep these terroritories (nice of him to give away something which isn't his) in direct contradiction of international law and numerous UN resolutions.

sometimes naughy kids need smacked and sometimes dumbass kids need smacked also ..

Ciaran, you give a very slanted and not altogether accurate accounting of the history and population of that area. You are of course perfectly entitled to your bias in favour of the plight of the Palestinian people. Out of the recorded history of the region(info from 4000 BC or so), and particulary what is now Israel, the peoples who would now be called Palestinians have had control of Israel/Palestine/Canaan/Judea/Marmeluke and Ottoman empire states etc. for a very short period of time. They are also made up of peoples from all over the region, including north Africa, Turkey, all over the former Roman Empire and peoples annexed from neighboring Arab countries. Jewish peoples have lived continuously in the area since the beginnings of Judaism (ie evolved out of Cannan 5800 odd years ago). Population dwindled massively under the Crusades and during other conflicts, but to take the stance that Jews unlawfully invaded a long standing Palestinian nation is to simplify the matter to the point of ridiculousness.

There is no justification for entering another country and trying to take it over from other people simply because some ancestors thousands of years ago used to live in that territory. Religious arguments here are utterly void - any one can use a religious argument to support one's claim to some land - all you have to say is 'that's MY holy land not yours, I don't care that you might have your home here, go away!' and round and round we go in circles. The Palestinians who lived on that land had every right to stay there - it's not their fault that thousands of years ago there was a diaspora. People forget that there were Zionist terrorists who actively sought to oust the Palestinians from land that they lived on (and still today we have zionist terrorists such as Sharon, and NOT only palestinian terrorists).

However, it's no use talking about the rights and wrongs of whether Jewish immigrants should have formed the state of israel they way they did 50 odd years ago (and which the British were very bad at managing in a responsible manner and are very culpable for) (and is it the Palestinians' fault that there was a holocaust?). The point is that we now have several generations of people on both sides who have been living in the area for several decades - it needs to be sorted out between them with the view that both sides are there to stay in some significant manner - both sides need to have their voices heard (but the Palestinians often feel that they are hugely disempowered in this regard). Sharon's aggressive policies will solve nothing. nor will Hamas' aggressive policies.

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halomi u do talk a load of sh*t .. israel, us, britain, russia, everybody knew they would win the war, except for some arab leaders, and even most of them knew it, because their armed forces were vastly superior to ALL of the arab armies combined. yes israel did work hard to establish the country, but by that time it wasn't their country. and they sacraficed a lot, usually palestinian civilans.

israel was formed from approx. 78% of what had been the palestinian consulate, but even that was not enough. they are trying to annexe the west bank and jerusalem and it's surrounding areas and have NO intentions of giving these up. in fact bush has more or less said they will be allowed to keep these terroritories (nice of him to give away something which isn't his) in direct contradiction of international law and numerous UN resolutions.

sometimes naughy kids need smacked and sometimes dumbass kids need smacked also ..

Ciaran, you give a very slanted and not altogether accurate accounting of the history and population of that area. You are of course perfectly entitled to your bias in favour of the plight of the Palestinian people. Out of the recorded history of the region(info from 4000 BC or so), and particulary what is now Israel, the peoples who would now be called Palestinians have had control of Israel/Palestine/Canaan/Judea/Marmeluke and Ottoman empire states etc. for a very short period of time. They are also made up of peoples from all over the region, including north Africa, Turkey, all over the former Roman Empire and peoples annexed from neighboring Arab countries. Jewish peoples have lived continuously in the area since the beginnings of Judaism (ie evolved out of Cannan 5800 odd years ago). Population dwindled massively under the Crusades and during other conflicts, but to take the stance that Jews unlawfully invaded a long standing Palestinian nation is to simplify the matter to the point of ridiculousness.

japh i was merely responding to something posted by halomi.also what have i said that is inaccurate ? i haven't said anything about jews invading a long standing palestinian nation. but they have annexed gaza, jersualem and the west bank and certainly don't appear ready to give up control of east jerusalem or the west bank.

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japh i was merely responding to something posted by halomi.also what have i said that is inaccurate ? i haven't said anything about jews invading a long standing palestinian nation. but they have annexed gaza, jersualem and the west bank and certainly don't appear ready to give up control of east jerusalem or the west bank.

Well, Ciaran, the Arab states are just as culpable for the situation in Gaza and the West Bank and Jerusalem because they were just as culpable as Israel for the start of the 1967 war. And few nations that win territory in war just turn around and give it back. Right or wrong, that's the way of the world, not some unique sin of Israel.

You've said Israel doesn't appear ready to give up control of east Jerusalem or the West Bank. Appear is the operative word there, Ciaran. You can't say ulitmately what the Israelis will do in the future. We could just as easily say the Palestinians don't appear to be ready give up killing innocent Israelis women and children even if they get the West Bank and Jerusalem.

And while that appears to be the case for some Palestinians, I won't taint them all or assume that's the way it will be. I will give both sides some benefit of the doubt. Which is more than you do for the Israelis.

Tinian's last paragraph is correct. It's pointless arguing over the history now. The key is finding a way forward for both sides.

And frankly, Ciaran, I think you've been unnecessarily rude to Halomi. She is entitled to her opinions without you unloading obscenities on her or putting her down. You can disagre with her all you want, but you don't have to speak to her like that. You don't do your own side of the argument much good when you respond like that.

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